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Luongo thread continued...

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:15 PM
  #526
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Your reply is nothing I already haven't seen from you Palindrom. Most of it incorrect. So I'm looking for appropriate responses that NFITO has posted to you, and will re-post them when the discussion goes in that direction. You've already been wrong, more than once, and have been corrected by people far more eloquent than I, so maybe you need a reminder?


It's up to you...


Oh and for the record, can you post what you think Vokoun's value actually is in assets so that when Luongo gets traded for far more, you can be called out on it? Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You mean a late pick isn't going to land Luongo??? DAMMIT!!! Back to the drawing board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If by "better contract" you meant "had a few days left until UFA started", then sure. And Vokoun is a solid goalie imo, but Luongo is still better.
I am talking about his value now, with his new contract. Not the value he had for his negotiating right.

Having elite goalie performance for a cheap contract was a good formula to win the cup in the last CBA.

Anyways, i just cant put any value on any players until we have a new CBA, as a new CBA could affect the value of players.

So i am willing to go on record and put a value on Vokoun and on Luongo once we have a new CBA remind me then.

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11-30-2012, 01:17 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post

If you change your offer to a 2014 1st, remove MacArthur (redundant to our roster), add a roster player or B-level prospect (Frattin, Finn, or Bozak would be preferable) to counter the cap dump of Lombardi (or Connolly, whichever Toronto wants to get rid of), the deal would be good. This trade would help both teams a lot, and would not gut the Leaf's roster or prospect pool. Toronto's roster is barely being changed, retaining their best prospects, and being given breathing room to improve before the 1st is traded. Sounds like win-win to me.

2014, Frattin/Finn or Bozak, plus Lombari or Connolly?

I'll do 2014 1st, Finn, Connolly... done and agreed upon.

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11-30-2012, 01:22 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Your reply is nothing I already haven't seen from you Palindrom. Most of it incorrect. So I'm looking for appropriate responses that NFITO has posted to you, and will re-post them when the discussion goes in that direction. You've already been wrong, more than once, and have been corrected by people far more eloquent than I, so maybe you need a reminder?


It's up to you...


Oh and for the record, can you post what you think Vokoun's value actually is in assets so that when Luongo gets traded for far more, you can be called out on it? Thank you.
If this is the same Palindrom that also posts on HTR, some of what he says may not come across correctly as I believe he is ESL. so some of what he says gets lost in translation. Now I am not sure why he is wrong if that is his belief, just like you are not wrong as to your preceived value of Lou. Truth is his value lies somewhere between what the two of you think, IMO.

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11-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
2014, Frattin/Finn or Bozak, plus Lombari or Connolly?

I'll do 2014 1st, Finn, Connolly... done and agreed upon.

+Kadri/Colborne (that was in the offer I quoted).

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:48 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
As a leaf fan I will tell you I do not expect him at that ratio. Now I will tell you it has to be IMO, at a good price as we are not a good or deep enough team yet to sacrifice what he may be actually worth.


I understand that it would have to be a good price for you because you have a weaker team, but should that matter to Gillis. He will be judged on what he returns, be it from TO, FLA, ANA or whoever else has been rumoured to be involved.


If Burke felt the Leafs roster couldn't afford a trade for Lu, then TO should bow out of this process eventually and shoot for Bryz, Thomas or Bernier.



Quote:
Now that being said, like it or not in the cap era period, most not all values have lowered. Also while van doesn't have to trade LOU, they are not in the position of strength their fans thimk. I say this because as an owner 5,333333 cap hit or whatever it is howlong do you think they are gonna wanna pay him his 6.7 mil? I am guessing a season at best, if of course Schneider pans out, which he should. So basically it boils down to this, he is worth more then what Leaf fans(or any other teams fans) wanna pay, but he is not what Nucks fans hope to get.


I agree that one season is the extent of which this should drag out with Luongo. Worst case scenario, Gillis trades him next offseason. However, at that point, it doesn't help Burke anymore. Not nearly to the extent it does now. So let's wait and see how long this takes, and what he goes for. I'm betting it will be a lot closer to the value Canucks fans have been proposing than what TO fans are saying.


For me personally, I've maintained that a 1st and a good quality prospect is all I would want. That's what I would be satisfied with.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:51 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
2014, Frattin/Finn or Bozak, plus Lombari or Connolly?

I'll do 2014 1st, Finn, Connolly... done and agreed upon.
How about we just do 2013 1st + 2014 1st + 2013 2nd + whatever salary dump you want to put on us...one guy.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:54 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
If this is the same Palindrom that also posts on HTR, some of what he says may not come across correctly as I believe he is ESL. so some of what he says gets lost in translation. Now I am not sure why he is wrong if that is his belief, just like you are not wrong as to your preceived value of Lou. Truth is his value lies somewhere between what the two of you think, IMO.


Nope. Some of the stuff he has said has already been proven wrong a while back. I'll dig up the posts...

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11-30-2012, 01:55 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
How about we just do 2013 1st + 2014 1st + 2013 2nd + whatever salary dump you want to put on us...one guy.
So...a Kessel type deal?? No thanks...unless Luongo is 21 again.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:59 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Nope. Some of the stuff he has said has already been proven wrong a while back. I'll dig up the posts...
It hasn't been proven wrong yet, but this one's my personal favourite:

Quote:
Compare apple with apple. I strongly believe Mason at 28yo will be a better goalie than Schneider at 28yo.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...079099&page=28

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:00 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
How about we just do 2013 1st + 2014 1st + 2013 2nd + whatever salary dump you want to put on us...one guy.
For who? This is the Luongo thread.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:22 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You're making a big deal out of something that isn't likely to happen and isn't that big a deal if it does happen. Maybe you're on the hook for 5.3m against the cap in 4 or 5 years because Lu hangs on a year too long. That isn't a big deal and will very likely be less of a deal against the cap in 4 or 5 years.
I'm concerned about it, yes, and consider it a negative. I don't think that's chicken little, but okay.

You wouldn't feel the same in an acquiring team's shoes?

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11-30-2012, 02:25 PM
  #537
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Any interest in a package of Kiprusoff + Backlund for Luongo?

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:36 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
+Kadri/Colborne (that was in the offer I quoted).
Yes it was, but it wasn't in what you put, so misunderstood that... Yes, you can add Colborne to the deal, and done.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:37 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
That is about the difference between Luongo having a Stanley cup or not......insignificant
Wrong again, on so many levels, but I'll just say that 1 less bad game in 700+ and 1 less bad game in 7 are just absolutely, fundamentally different things.

Kind of like how Roberto Luongo's trade value is fundamentally different from Cedrick Desjardins'.

Quote:
Also if we include his playoff stats his saves % drop. (why shouldn't we used these stats ? I am sure you would had used them if they was over .920)
Well it's conventional to use players regular season statistics only during their careers so thats what you, me and everyone else have been doing.

Until you decided to throw in his playoff stats - presumably because they are a drag on his overall number and thus make your nitpicking look ever so slightly less ridiculous - of course.

But it is kind of funny that you asked me why I used regular season numbers when you do the very same.

By the way, Roberto Luongo's career aggregated playoff and regular season save percentage? 0.9190417533874188, or about 11 goals (in 788 games) off of showing up as .920.

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11-30-2012, 03:02 PM
  #540
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palindrom if hate has nothing to do with this then why are you ALWAYS in Canuck goalie threads? Me thinks it has something to do with ill will. You've always had an agenda & its obvious!

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Old
11-30-2012, 03:18 PM
  #541
Bleach Clean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
It hasn't been proven wrong yet, but this one's my personal favourite:



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...079099&page=28


Yup, I do recall this one. There are two NFITO posts in particular I'm looking for and they should help set the record straight on palindrom.

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11-30-2012, 03:31 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Nope. Some of the stuff he has said has already been proven wrong a while back. I'll dig up the posts...
I just asked as I am obviously new here lol, and there was a poster of the same name on HTR. And some of the stuff he posted i think got misunderstood.

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11-30-2012, 03:35 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I understand that it would have to be a good price for you because you have a weaker team, but should that matter to Gillis. He will be judged on what he returns, be it from TO, FLA, ANA or whoever else has been rumoured to be involved.


If Burke felt the Leafs roster couldn't afford a trade for Lu, then TO should bow out of this process eventually and shoot for Bryz, Thomas or Bernier.







I agree that one season is the extent of which this should drag out with Luongo. Worst case scenario, Gillis trades him next offseason. However, at that point, it doesn't help Burke anymore. Not nearly to the extent it does now. So let's wait and see how long this takes, and what he goes for. I'm betting it will be a lot closer to the value Canucks fans have been proposing than what TO fans are saying.


For me personally, I've maintained that a 1st and a good quality prospect is all I would want. That's what I would be satisfied with.
Not all the requests have been bad by either side, and should how I see my team affect Gillis? NOPE. I was simply stating as I how a Leaf fan feel it needs to be looked at. Like i said we agree that it is somewhere in between what both sides think, lol. I have no problem with a good prospect and a 1st. Howvever I would want that first top ten protected, lol.

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11-30-2012, 03:45 PM
  #544
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Not all the requests have been bad by either side, and should how I see my team affect Gillis? NOPE. I was simply stating as I how a Leaf fan feel it needs to be looked at. Like i said we agree that it is somewhere in between what both sides think, lol. I have no problem with a good prospect and a 1st. Howvever I would want that first top ten protected, lol.


There have been a large chunk of leafs proposals that include no 1st, or prospect worth nothing. These proposals don't even come close IMO. It's these proposals that I am singling out. Not the ones some have made that do make sense (LiferLeafer has made a few already).



A key thing to watch out for in any proposal is the impact an incorrect perception about Lu's contract will have. Those that see it as an albatross will not tend to get an agreement from Canucks fans on value. You can spot them immediately. They should be dismissed just like some high end proposals from Canucks fans should be (Y2K has made a few). But all that said, I see the value being a lot closer to what Canucks fans have proposed, on the whole, than what leafs fans have proposed.

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11-30-2012, 03:53 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
There have been a large chunk of leafs proposals that include no 1st, or prospect worth nothing. These proposals don't even come close IMO. It's these proposals that I am singling out. Not the ones some have made that do make sense (LiferLeafer has made a few already).



A key thing to watch out for in any proposal is the impact an incorrect perception about Lu's contract will have. Those that see it as an albatross will not tend to get an agreement from Canucks fans on value. You can spot them immediately. They should be dismissed just like some high end proposals from Canucks fans should be (Y2K has made a few). But all that said, I see the value being a lot closer to what Canucks fans have proposed, on the whole, than what leafs fans have proposed.

i'm trying man...i'm trying!! The bottom line (for me at least) is that Luongo would be an immediate positive impact that would carry for 5 years IMO. So when i look at a package, i ask myself which would hold more positive impact.


Last edited by Liferleafer: 11-30-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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11-30-2012, 04:11 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
i'm trying man...i'm trying!! The bottom line (for me at least) is that Luongo would be an immediate positive impact that would carry for 5 years IMO. So when i look at a package, i ask myself which would hold more positive impact.
I have agreed with many of your proposals, we will all differ to some extent on which prospects we want to keep.

As for Lou's contract it is not as bad as some make but it is not perfect. Some teams will love the cap hit but not like the salary for right now, this may deter some. Like I said is it an Albatross, well no, but a contract of that length isn't ideal either.

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11-30-2012, 04:20 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So...a Kessel type deal?? No thanks...unless Luongo is 21 again.
IF you had traded that pakcage for Luongo instead of Kessel the picks wouldn't have turned into #2 and #9 overall.

The only problem anyone had with the Kessel trade is that the Leafs were not in a position to be trading away 1sts because they didn't have a good goalie. If they made the exact same trade for Kessel today after having made the trade for a top goalie before, it wouldn't be a problem.

Look at the Varlamov trade...at the time of the trade, the Avs were ripped for trading away a 1st + 2nd for Varlamov because people thought they were going to finish bottom 3 (sound familiar Leaf fans?), the thing is they got a goalie who could play and as a result the deal doesn't look bad now. The gap between Luongo and Varlamov is a 1st round pick or more IMO and the Leafs are in a better position to succeed with Luongo than Colorado is with Varlamov.

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11-30-2012, 04:27 PM
  #548
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palindrom if hate has nothing to do with this then why are you ALWAYS in Canuck goalie threads? Me thinks it has something to do with ill will. You've always had an agenda & its obvious!
I think Palindrom is a Canucks/Habs fan who from what I have gathered has argued against having a lot of money tied up in goaltending. He has also advocated trading Price for filling a need on the Habs roster and going with a cheap serviceable goaltender.

It's a unique position but you cannot say that it is wrong. If anything teams have proven (post lockout) that you can win without expensive goaltending.

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11-30-2012, 04:28 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
i'm trying man...i'm trying!! The bottom line (for me at least) is that Luongo would be an immediate positive impact that would carry for 5 years IMO. So when i look at a package, i ask myself which would hold more positive impact.



And that's the way it should be viewed, from TO's side. Not this "impacted by an albatross contract" false roadblock that keeps surfacing. As soon as more TO fans start to realize this POV, the agreements will soon follow.




Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I have agreed with many of your proposals, we will all differ to some extent on which prospects we want to keep.

As for Lou's contract it is not as bad as some make but it is not perfect. Some teams will love the cap hit but not like the salary for right now, this may deter some. Like I said is it an Albatross, well no, but a contract of that length isn't ideal either.



His contract, doorman, is one of the best contracts in the league IMO. That's how apart we are in our valuations. His contract is so good to me that had there not been this stink about BDCs that Bettman is now pushing, I would want Gillis to continually sign his elite players to such a deal. That's how good it is to me. Built in outs and a handshake agreement is all the security I would need to feel comfortable with the length. Lu's contract has that, which is why I view it with such favour.



The only downside to Luongo as an asset is age, and I have expressed as such. Compared to say Nash, he should garner less due to age alone. So when you say we should expect less, I do, but how much less is the question. What is 6 years worth?

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11-30-2012, 04:30 PM
  #550
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
IF you had traded that pakcage for Luongo instead of Kessel the picks wouldn't have turned into #2 and #9 overall.

The only problem anyone had with the Kessel trade is that the Leafs were not in a position to be trading away 1sts because they didn't have a good goalie. If they made the exact same trade for Kessel today after having made the trade for a top goalie before, it wouldn't be a problem.

Look at the Varlamov trade...at the time of the trade, the Avs were ripped for trading away a 1st + 2nd for Varlamov because people thought they were going to finish bottom 3 (sound familiar Leaf fans?), the thing is they got a goalie who could play and as a result the deal doesn't look bad now. The gap between Luongo and Varlamov is a 1st round pick or more IMO and the Leafs are in a better position to succeed with Luongo than Colorado is with Varlamov.
I don't think you'd find anyone (including other fanbases) who think the Leafs should do that deal. I know "ifs" are frowned upon around here, but if Luongo was injured for any stretch of time, this deal would be disastrous. The Kessel deal was Burke clearly not knowing just how bad of a team he had inherited.

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