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Old
11-30-2012, 02:10 PM
  #176
Halpysback
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How has no one pointed out the idiocy of saying Backstrom = Krejci in the playoffs since their PPG is equal?

Chimera's not really chopped liver either.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:11 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
"scrappy gritty"? Brouwer is "scrappy gritty", Marchand is plain dirty, without euphemisms.
Could be too much value from BOS side, but we do not need Brad Marchand. Do. Not. Need. For the exact same reason as we don't need Steve Downie, for example. Not our style of hockey.
Steve Downie is far more of a dirty ***** than Marchand, and that's saying something. But please, continue putting your team at an elevated status far above the Dirty Bruins.

As already said, most teams (if they are tough enough to back it... are the Caps?) would love Marchand who can get the opposition off their game, kill penalties, and plays a shifty offensive style as well leading to 50-60 points. Not too shabby.

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Old
11-30-2012, 02:21 PM
  #178
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
"scrappy gritty"? Brouwer is "scrappy gritty", Marchand is plain dirty, without euphemisms.
Could be too much value from BOS side, but we do not need Brad Marchand. Do. Not. Need. For the exact same reason as we don't need Steve Downie, for example. Not our style of hockey.
Not our style of hockey? Get off your high horse, what an arrogant post. What have the Caps accomplished from playing that "style of hockey?"

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Old
11-30-2012, 03:29 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Not our style of hockey? Get off your high horse, what an arrogant post. What have the Caps accomplished from playing that "style of hockey?"
Did I say "Not our style of hockey and we won everything possible with our style of hockey"? No. I and a lot of fans I know wouldn't really welcome a guy like Marchand on our team. I realised that not long ago... and beating Bruins and Marchand in a playoff series was a factor here. Caps handled the situation well AND won the series. Marchand (and some other guys from the Bs who lost their coo, see: Peverley swing) looked ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by NathanHortonFan View Post
As already said, most teams (if they are tough enough to back it... are the Caps?) would love Marchand who can get the opposition off their game, kill penalties, and plays a shifty offensive style as well leading to 50-60 points. Not too shabby.
I'd rather have players of my team get opposition off their game with stifling defense, great puck control, intimidating physical play and not buying into that agitating, playing thick and proud than with the cheap tricks. If Marchand didn't have that element, I'd be OK with him on the Caps to do all the other stuff you talk about (but that describtion without the first part just screams Brooks Laich). I like the way GMGM is building this team, getting those true warriors: drafting Mitchell, Wilson and Holtby, trading for Brouwer and Chimera, signing Hendricks... Don't think a guy like Marchand will fit in.


Last edited by fedfed: 11-30-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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Old
11-30-2012, 04:00 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
I would never argue that Seguin is better than Backstrom right now, but you could certainly argue that he has the potential to be.
He was 10th in scoring amongst players listed as centers by NHL.com last year and was 20. He would have been 16th among wingers.

Scoring isn't everything, but he's probably pushing to be considered a top 30 forward right now, and obviously the best is yet to come.
I could argue that Yakupov, McKinnon and Barkov, while not as good as Seguin is right now, certainly all have the potential to be better.

I guess that means they are top 10 or top 20 in the league too.

And BTW Phil Kessel was top 6 among F in points last year, so I guess that means he's clearly better than Seguin too. And Lupul had the same amount of pts so he must be as good.

Seguin is a very good prospect. Very good. But he isn't the best prospect in the NHL and he isn't a top 20 F in the NHL right now. He has a chance to be, but 60 guys have the chance to be.

In Casablanca Bogart is asked how he would feel to see the Germans marching through London. His response, "Ask me when they get there."

Similar answer here to Seguin: Ask me when he gets there. The post I responded to was talking about right now. If things change I'll be the first to say it.

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Old
11-30-2012, 04:02 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Please show me where I said that?

I actually said "CLEARLY Backstrom is the better regular season player"..

Why would you want to take the playoffs "out of the equation"? Playoffs are where legends are created. Thus far in their careers, they produce the same amount of offense in the post season.

One for one, Backstrom holds more value..but IMO not so much more that Boston would toss in Marchand & a 1st. No chance.
Claude Lemieux > Cam Neely in the playoffs. (but to be completely fair, Neely has a higher ppg avg in the playoffs than Lemieux, but since Lemieux played about 140 playoff games in the deadpuck era and Neely played about 7, I think you have to look at more than that. Lemieux I think was a Conn Smythe winner, and I don't think Neely ever won.)

True.

Who was the better player?

Neely by a wide margin.


Last edited by Dr Quincy: 11-30-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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Old
11-30-2012, 04:02 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
How has no one pointed out the idiocy of saying Backstrom = Krejci in the playoffs since their PPG is equal?

Chimera's not really chopped liver either.
50 games isn't really a small sample. The stats show that Krejci's game elevates in the playoffs and Backstrom's does not. I don't see how that is idiocy. It's a fact based conclusion. Does Backstrom still have more talent, yes, but he hasn't proven that in the playoffs.

Chimera isn't chopped liver, but is a significant drop off from Marchand. 10 years older and has never scored as many goals as Marchand has in his first two years. I think Chimera would be an awesome addition on the Bruins third line; but I don't think he'd be a suitable replacement for Brad on their second line; which leaves us with a gaping hole after this trade.

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Old
11-30-2012, 04:03 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
I just happen to think Giroux/Toews are better overall centers and I'd take them over Backstrom.
Giroux
Backstrom
Toews

IMO

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Old
11-30-2012, 05:01 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Claude Lemieux > Cam Neely in the playoffs. (but to be completely fair, Neely has a higher ppg avg in the playoffs than Lemieux, but since Lemieux played about 140 playoff games in the deadpuck era and Neely played about 7, I think you have to look at more than that. Lemieux I think was a Conn Smythe winner, and I don't think Neely ever won.)

True.

Who was the better player?

Neely by a wide margin.
They've both (Krejci Backstrom) played 50 some odd games, in the same era, & have the same ppg %. Most Bruin fans are aware Krejci raises his level of play in the playoffs (infamous: "not too excited during reg season" comment). So we have 2 players, both their respective teams top line centers, same age, same style play, se era, close to the same amount of playoff games, both with the same ppg%. Is it far fetched to say they are = in the playoffs?

Thats not even taking into consideration TOI, or production from linemates.

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:33 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I could argue that Yakupov, McKinnon and Barkov, while not as good as Seguin is right now, certainly all have the potential to be better.

I guess that means they are top 10 or top 20 in the league too.
Sorry, is that what you read in my post? I certainly didn't state or imply Seguin was a top 20 forward at this point. Is it my communication skills or your reading comprehension? Either way, sorry you got that impression. In fact, I think what I stated was that Seguin was knocking on the door of being a top 30 forward, which I think is fair.

Quote:
And BTW Phil Kessel was top 6 among F in points last year, so I guess that means he's clearly better than Seguin too. And Lupul had the same amount of pts so he must be as good.
Phil Kessel is a phenomenal hockey player. Phenomenal. At this point, certainly a better player than Seguin. Not sure where in my post you would have read an opinion otherwise.
As for Lupul, I love the guy, he plays a style I'm a big fan of, but he's obviously much older, and doesn't have Seguin's potential.


Quote:
Seguin is a very good prospect. Very good. But he isn't the best prospect in the NHL and he isn't a top 20 F in the NHL right now. He has a chance to be, but 60 guys have the chance to be.

In Casablanca Bogart is asked how he would feel to see the Germans marching through London. His response, "Ask me when they get there."

Similar answer here to Seguin: Ask me when he gets there. The post I responded to was talking about right now. If things change I'll be the first to say it.
Again, not sure where you read in my post that I thought he was a top 20 forward. You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, as my opinion is quite similar to yours.

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:36 PM
  #186
Halpysback
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Originally Posted by SPV View Post
50 games isn't really a small sample. The stats show that Krejci's game elevates in the playoffs and Backstrom's does not. I don't see how that is idiocy. It's a fact based conclusion. Does Backstrom still have more talent, yes, but he hasn't proven that in the playoffs.

Chimera isn't chopped liver, but is a significant drop off from Marchand. 10 years older and has never scored as many goals as Marchand has in his first two years. I think Chimera would be an awesome addition on the Bruins third line; but I don't think he'd be a suitable replacement for Brad on their second line; which leaves us with a gaping hole after this trade.
Krejci has had the benefit of playing on much deeper and more balanced playoff teams than Backstrom. He doesn't actually have to shoulder 1C level responsibilities since Bergeron is as good as him if not better, and Boston's 3rd line is excellent defensively and above average offensively. He's also played with a significantly better defensive unit than Backstrom, which factors a ton in the playoffs.

Washington's best center after Backstrom would be worse than the Bruins' next 2 best centers after Krejci, playoff wise (4 if you count Peverley and Seguin as centers as well). And this is on a good year.

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:41 PM
  #187
cneely
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Krejci has had the benefit of playing on much deeper and more balanced playoff teams than Backstrom. He doesn't actually have to shoulder 1C level responsibilities since Bergeron is as good as him if not better, and Boston's 3rd line is excellent defensively and above average offensively. He's also played with a significantly better defensive unit than Backstrom, which factors a ton in the playoffs.

Washington's best center after Backstrom would be worse than the Bruins' next 2 best centers after Krejci, playoff wise (4 if you count Peverley and Seguin as centers as well). And this is on a good year.
I don't understand you're argument.
Krejci plays on a deeper team, and isn't counted on as much for offense, so his numbers should be better?

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:49 PM
  #188
Halpysback
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
I don't understand you're argument.
Krejci plays on a deeper team, and isn't counted on as much for offense, so his numbers should be better?
In the playoffs where bruising matchups reign supreme that's generally the case. And I believe he's Boston's go to offensive C (correct me if I'm wrong, but Kelly is defense first and Bergeron is Boston's go to shutdown guy).

If you have a team with bad center depth (say Leafs or Flames), and you're going into the playoffs, and you can get one of them for that run, who would you honestly take - Krejci or Backstrom?

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:57 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
In the playoffs where bruising matchups reign supreme that's generally the case. And I believe he's Boston's go to offensive C (correct me if I'm wrong, but Kelly is defense first and Bergeron is Boston's go to shutdown guy).

If you have a team with bad center depth (say Leafs or Flames), and you're going into the playoffs, and you can get one of them for that run, who would you honestly take - Krejci or Backstrom?
Backstrom is hands down the better player in my opinion. Better skills, fantastic hands.
Hard to argue with Krejci's playoff record though. He led the league in scoring the cup year, and the year before, the biggest reason for the collapse against Philly was his injury.

Tough call IMO. I probably take Backstrom because of his skill, but there's no doubt Krejci is a great playoff player.

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Old
11-30-2012, 08:28 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
If we're going by plus minus, then Seguin was the best center in the entire league last year. Crap argument. The only arguments Ive heard for backstrom are career PPG and +/-

No one think Backstrom isnt one of the best centers in the league (except that one guy), so I dont know why you guys are getting so defensive. I just happen to think Giroux/Toews are better overall centers and I'd take them over Backstrom.
No I used Plus Minus because that is the only "defensive stat" that you can argue other then blocked shots ect. The other poster (idk which one) said that Giroux and Toews were better defensively then Backstrom and there is no real way of arguing that so I used Plus Minus as one indicator of why Backstrom is better defensively then Giroux and about the same as Toews. We also pointed out that Backstrom has been on the PK for almost all of his career. I was just using the argument to show he's better defensively because there aren't many other ways to show that unless you watch the games (unfortunately you can't because of the lockout )

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Old
12-01-2012, 06:02 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Regular season:
Backstrom >>> Krejci
Playoffs:
Backstrom = Krejci.
Yeah, we'll keep Backstrom... and Marchand isn't that enticing. Caps aren't a dirty team, Caps are a team that has some pride, this bunch of guys always played physical, honest hockey. Not interested in whining divers. He's a bad fit with our leadership group.
Are you talking about the team who's best player has been known to knee other players? Throw late hits? The same team who employs a player who concussed a Bruin near the end of the season with a late hit? The same team who had a player suspended for hitting another player with. Their stick?

Yeah, they aren't dirty.

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Old
12-01-2012, 07:23 AM
  #192
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Offensively: Giroux > Backstrom = Toews
Defensively: Toews = Backstrom > Giroux

And I think it's often misleading to take playoff success in the past as proof of some special quality in the player, him being a "playoff performer". When you look at a career there are ups and downs for most players. For players who are not even halfway into their careers you can't say "x is a playoff performer and y is not".

Everything considered, I take Backstrom over Krejci easily in the regular season and playoffs going forward.

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Old
12-01-2012, 09:11 PM
  #193
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this is funny. i wont even get sucked into the bergeron is better than backstrom comment. next please?
cccc


Last edited by Jeff from Maine: 12-01-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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Old
12-01-2012, 09:15 PM
  #194
Jeff from Maine
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
Backstrom ... 8 points in 13 games.
Seguin ... 3 points in 7 games. (pointless in the first 5)
Bergeron... 2 points in 7 games.


Ok bud.

cccc


Last edited by Jeff from Maine: 12-01-2012 at 10:00 PM. Reason: wanted to
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Old
12-01-2012, 09:24 PM
  #195
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one stanley cup over the period of time that the capitals have existed even being one more than the capitals have won doesnt work that well as a tool to win all lost arguments. at least not for me.

it cleanly wipes away blowing 3-0 lead to the flyers, but as the years go buy it does lose its strenth. i wonder, how many bruins players were justifying themselves after losing game 7 by saying, "yea, but see 'stanley cup 2011'?"
Yup...and why did they blow that lead?

David Krejci went down for the series and the Bruins couldnt recover.

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Old
12-01-2012, 09:32 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
One star player and Chimera for two good, but not greats? Pass bigtime from Washington.
I know, right?

Why would you ever want a guy who led the NHL in playoff points and was 2nd in playoff MVP voting, and oh....won a Stanley Cup?

I would NEVER want that on any team of mine!

Later

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Old
12-01-2012, 09:59 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
In the playoffs where bruising matchups reign supreme that's generally the case. And I believe he's Boston's go to offensive C (correct me if I'm wrong, but Kelly is defense first and Bergeron is Boston's go to shutdown guy).

If you have a team with bad center depth (say Leafs or Flames), and you're going into the playoffs, and you can get one of them for that run, who would you honestly take - Krejci or Backstrom?
Honestly? No difference to me.

3 years ago, with Krejci in the line-up (minus Savard and Sturm...2 top 6 forwards), Boston was up 3 games to 0 on Philly. Krejci goes down...Boston loses 4 straight.

The next season, Krejci is healthy for the entire playoffs...he leads NHL in playoff points and was 2nd best player in postseason, behind Thomas.

And Krejci has always performed in postseason.

Backstrom has done well in the postseason as well...but he hasnt offensively put his team on his back for 4 rounds.

That said...I take Krejic. Because of that.

Later

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Old
12-01-2012, 11:34 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine View Post
Honestly? No difference to me.

3 years ago, with Krejci in the line-up (minus Savard and Sturm...2 top 6 forwards), Boston was up 3 games to 0 on Philly. Krejci goes down...Boston loses 4 straight.

The next season, Krejci is healthy for the entire playoffs...he leads NHL in playoff points and was 2nd best player in postseason, behind Thomas.

And Krejci has always performed in postseason.

Backstrom has done well in the postseason as well...but he hasnt offensively put his team on his back for 4 rounds.

That said...I take Krejic. Because of that.

Later
That must be news to Bergeron and Chara.

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Old
12-02-2012, 12:41 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
That must be news to Bergeron and Chara.
As much as I like Bergeron and Chara (Chara is my favorite player), Krecji was the 2nd most important player after Thomas. He was the most important Bruin prior to the finals, when Thomas started to stand on his head.

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12-02-2012, 03:54 AM
  #200
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I will go with Backstrom > in regular season but=or slightly lesser than Krejci in the playoffs. Krejci is an extremely underated player by most other Bruin fans becasue he is a, inconsistent during the regular season, b not tremendously physical and possibly even c, European. When the Bruins trade Krejci, and they will, then you will see his importance.

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