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Old
11-23-2012, 12:58 PM
  #26
MoreGore
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Games 1-7 16 goals
Game 8-14 21 goals (30% increase)

The team was bound to start slow given the youth, the number coming from the SEL and the new coach.

Am I worried? A bit given other prospects that have done well, like Granlund, Baertschi and Schwartz for example.

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11-23-2012, 02:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Is it that or is it that most people are forgetting that not all top prospects dominate at young ages.

It's the youngest team in the AHL and pretty mediocre and experienced at center. And without Cowen. Even good teams go through scoring droubts, don't think we can take much from this until the season goes on.
The kids look fine, the offence is starting to show some life (15 goals in last 4 games).

Considering the team has a first time head coach, a team playing with 7 -8 rookies most nights, injuries to key people, yet still sit 2nd in the division and 5th in the conference, all in all not a bad start.

Defensively they haven't been as bad as the shots against might indicate, although allowing 99 shots (20% of the total) in the last two games needs to be addressed.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 11-23-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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11-23-2012, 03:54 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
This... Some of our guys will pan into solid players but a bunch will fall into obscurity.

I've been watching hockey for a while... And have seen many fanbases have there dreams crushed after pimping there incredibly sick prospect pool.

It happens all the time... That's just a fact.
The only way to predict the future of prospects is by watching them play a lot. History just provides for some data points, nothing more.

In the case of the Sens prospects, I have seen nothing in the first 14 games that indicate the projections for these kids have been misplaced or grossly overstated.

Hoffman, Lehner, Silf, Zibby, Stone, Weircoich, Gryba, Boro, Pageau, Claesson, and Prince are developing as expected IMO. Several from this list are NHL capable now. It is entirely possible that most if not all of these players will make it to the NHL in the future.

Grant and Dziurzynski definitely have 3rd or 4th line NHL capability now.

Blood, Wideman, Kramer and Schneider will need time to develop at the pro game.

Cowick, Petersson, Da Costa need to be better, or forget any hopes they might have of reaching the NHL.

Caporusso, Peltz, Hamilton will in all likelyhood disappear in time.


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11-23-2012, 03:59 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Petersson-Zibanejad-Silfverberg
Prince-Grant-Stone
Hoffman-Cannone-Jessiman
Dziurzynski-Pageau-Cowick
Schneider

is what I'd do at this point


PS : The B-Sens are on a 4 games winning streak and have scored 15 goals (3.75 goals per game), seems like an odd moment for this thread. Maybe they are just starting to figure things out
Petersson isn't playing well enough to be on the top line IMO.

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11-23-2012, 04:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
The only way to predict the future of prospects is by watching them play a lot. History just provides for some data points, nothing more.

In the case of the Sens prospects, I have seen nothing in the first 14 games that indicate the projections for these kids have been misplaced or grossly overstated.

Hoffman, Lehner, Silf, Zibby, Stone, Weircoich, Gryba, Boro, Pageau, Claesson, and Prince are developing as expected IMO. Several from this list are NHL capable now. It is entirely possible that most if not all of these players will make it to the NHL in the future.

Grant and Dziurzynski definitely have 3rd or 4th line NHL capability now.

Blood, Wideman, Kramer and Schneider will need time to develop at the pro game.

Cowick, Petersson, Da Costa need to be better, or forget any hopes they might have of reaching the NHL.

Caporusso, Peltz, Hamilton will in all likelyhood disappear in time.
Yeah people need to chill out. We don't need our kids to rip apart the AHL at 19 and 20 - we need them to be quality NHLers at 23. Remember Turris was the youngest forward on our team and many people jumped to conclusions on him when he was 20 years old too. If Zibanejad gets 30-40 points this year I will be happy - he's still young.

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Old
11-23-2012, 05:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
Most of our prospects will bust, every indication and history would suggest. That's just the way things work.

That being said, one can certainly improve the chances of getting better than average outcome out of the picks, and I believe Sens have a pretty good scouting department to scew odds in our favour.
For sure, but I still don't get it. Are people discouraged by the play of a guy like JGP? For one, he's a 4th rounder with a long way to go, two he's played okay, and okay is a reasonable hope for a guy like him. Shane Prince? I've loved him since his debut. Stone? Been quite good IMO. Silfverberg? Really starting to look good. Lehner? Um, living up to the insane hype. Pat Weircioch? Been good, and most gave up. Claesson? Been adequate, but what was anyone expecting?

The guys that make our prospect pool among the best in the league are playing fairly well, I'd have thought Stone and Zibanejad could give us 0.5 PPG and Silfverberg anywhere from 0.75-1PPG. And by the end of the season I still wouldn't be surprised to see that. And we still have three 1sts outside of Binghamton.

The only guy that's really "struggling" is Zibanejad and a significant part of that is that most don't see beyond the scoresheet. That said, his play hasn't been overly impressive but I think people went in with unreasonable expectations of what he was supposed to play like (talking play style, not scoring). He could easily have quite a few more points doing exactly what he's doing.

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11-23-2012, 05:45 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
For sure, but I still don't get it. Are people discouraged by the play of a guy like JGP? For one, he's a 4th rounder with a long way to go, two he's played okay, and okay is a reasonable hope for a guy like him. Shane Prince? I've loved him since his debut. Stone? Been quite good IMO. Silfverberg? Really starting to look good. Lehner? Um, living up to the insane hype. Pat Weircioch? Been good, and most gave up. Claesson? Been adequate, but what was anyone expecting?

The guys that make our prospect pool among the best in the league are playing fairly well, I'd have thought Stone and Zibanejad could give us 0.5 PPG and Silfverberg anywhere from 0.75-1PPG. And by the end of the season I still wouldn't be surprised to see that. And we still have three 1sts outside of Binghamton.

The only guy that's really "struggling" is Zibanejad and a significant part of that is that most don't see beyond the scoresheet. That said, his play hasn't been overly impressive but I think people went in with unreasonable expectations of what he was supposed to play like (talking play style, not scoring). He could easily have quite a few more points doing exactly what he's doing.
I'll co-sign the entire post, but it's still a case where we - despite a lot of potential NHL players in our prospect pool - won't get more than a few that will have long NHL careers, unless we get extremely lucky.

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11-23-2012, 06:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
I'll co-sign the entire post, but it's still a case where we - despite a lot of potential NHL players in our prospect pool - won't get more than a few that will have long NHL careers, unless we get extremely lucky.
You can make any assumption, but you really don't know how these guys will turn out.

Fans get excited on draft day, then when the players don't immediately blow away the competition at development camp, people start to include them in every and any trade proposal possible.

Developing players takes time, there are ups and downs, and yes some will never play in the NHL.

Best example recently, Weircoich. Many fans on this board were declaring him a bust and including him in their fantasy trade proposals.

One season later he might just be the best defenceman for the B-Sens and has outplayed Boro, the guy many has in Ottawa this year, in every category except penalty minutes.

People give up on 18 - 22 year olds in an instant, always seemingly looking for the next FOM.

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11-23-2012, 06:32 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
You can make any assumption, but you really don't know how these guys will turn out.

Fans get excited on draft day, then when the players don't immediately blow away the competition at development camp, people start to include them in every and any trade proposal possible.

Developing players takes time, there are ups and downs, and yes some will never play in the NHL.

Best example recently, Weircoich. Many fans on this board were declaring him a bust and including him in their fantasy trade proposals.

One season later he might just be the best defenceman for the B-Sens and has outplayed Boro, the guy many has in Ottawa this year, in every category except penalty minutes.

People give up on 18 - 22 year olds in an instant, always seemingly looking for the next FOM.
I was not really projecting our prospects as much as all the prospects in the entire league. Even top-10 picks bust half the times, it's just the nature of development that some fall off once they've gotten a few chances, and it will most likely happen here too.

And by the way, Wieircioch has outplayed Boro in penalty minutes. He's only got 12 mins while Boro's got 64.

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11-23-2012, 10:13 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
The only way to predict the future of prospects is by watching them play a lot. History just provides for some data points, nothing more.

In the case of the Sens prospects, I have seen nothing in the first 14 games that indicate the projections for these kids have been misplaced or grossly overstated.

Hoffman, Lehner, Silf, Zibby, Stone, Weircoich, Gryba, Boro, Pageau, Claesson, and Prince are developing as expected IMO. Several from this list are NHL capable now. It is entirely possible that most if not all of these players will make it to the NHL in the future.

Grant and Dziurzynski definitely have 3rd or 4th line NHL capability now.

Blood, Wideman, Kramer and Schneider will need time to develop at the pro game.

Cowick, Petersson, Da Costa need to be better, or forget any hopes they might have of reaching the NHL.

Caporusso, Peltz, Hamilton will in all likelyhood disappear in time.
Lehner, Silfverberg, Zibanejad and Stone will all be NHLers, it's pretty much garanteed. How good is the question

I see a future for Grant in the NHL as a bottom 6er. I think that Wiercioch and Borowiecki are good bets as well (Wier already played in the NHL and looked adequate... and he has developped since)

I'm worried about Da Costa and Petersson. Petey is not producing and Stephane has been injured. They got time but they are missing a very good opportunity right now

Edit : worried about Hoffman too, not making a lot of noise for an AHL veteran

Don't see any NHL future for guys like Gryba, Dziurzynski, Schneider, Cowick, Caporusso, Peltz, Hamilton. As for the rest (Prince, Pageau, Claesson, Blood...) only time will tell. There's not so many spots available

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Petersson isn't playing well enough to be on the top line IMO.
Yeah, a bit underwhelming so far, need something to boost him. Maybe he is not producing because he's not the "go-to-guy"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
This... Some of our guys will pan into solid players but a bunch will fall into obscurity.

I've been watching hockey for a while... And have seen many fanbases have there dreams crushed after pimping there incredibly sick prospect pool.

It happens all the time... That's just a fact.
It would be stupid to wish that everyone of our prospect turn into gold... there's only 19-20 players on the ice, but our drafting/development programs under Murray is something special

I have started pimping our drafting in 2008

2008 Entry 15 1 Erik Karlsson D Frolunda Jrs (Sweden)
2008 Entry 42 2 Patrick Wiercioch D Omaha Lancers [USHL]
2008 Entry 79 3 Zack Smith C Swift Current Broncos [WHL]
2008 Entry 109 4 Andre Petersson R HV 71 Jrs. (Sweden)
2008 Entry 119 4 Derek Grant C Langley Chiefs [BCHL]
2008 Entry 139 5 Mark Borowiecki D Smiths Falls Bears [CJHL]
2008 Entry 199 7 Emil Sandin L Brynas IF Gavle [SEL]

It looks very good, just a bit disappointed with AP but he still got time (considering he was injured for 2 years)

Karlsson is a norris caliber D-man, Zack Smith is an excellent 3rd liner, Wiercioch could very well be an offensive/all-around 2nd pairing D-man, Grant has a good chance to be a 2-way 3rd or 4th line center and AP is a big boom or bust. Borowiecki should be a physical 3rd pairing D-man


Last edited by Xspyrit: 11-23-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 10:51 PM
  #36
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^That's quite amusing Xspyrit, how you turned your opinion about Petersson after I mentioned 'he's been horrible' this season and instead ripped into the city of Binghamton..

Also, just interested on your feelings on Daugavins as a NHL'er..

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11-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #37
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About sums it up here..

“This game was my best so far in Binghamton,” said Silfverberg, who admits he is still adjusting to the North American rinks after playing in the bigger rinks in Europe. “For me it felt nice to have a couple points and get the win. Every game I learn something and feel more and more comfortable out there.”

======
http://www.pressconnects.com/article...xt|FRONTPAGE|p
This is a big reason why Silf and Zibanejad haven't scored more. It's not as easy as people think to go from big ice to smaller ice.

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11-24-2012, 10:01 AM
  #38
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^That's quite amusing Xspyrit, how you turned your opinion about Petersson after I mentioned 'he's been horrible' this season and instead ripped into the city of Binghamton..

Also, just interested on your feelings on Daugavins as a NHL'er..
Not sure what you are trying to say but I didn't "turn my opinion about Petersson"... He's still on of my favorite prospects and I would really like him to make it and become a key offensive player. What I'm saying is I am actually worried about his production and development SO FAR THIS season. Doesn't mean he won't have time to turn things around

And no sorry, it's not because of what you said (didn't really notice), more because of what I see and read

Daugavins? Not really talked about him but my opinion is simple :

Great guy in the room, capable defensively but more reliable on the PK, I'm a bit nervous when he's out there at even strenght. Not really able to produce offense at that level, I'd rather go with Condra who is a hockey player... Never saw a big potential in Daug. Had a bit hope long time ago when we were starving for good prospects.

I was hoping they weren't going to re-sign him last off-season but they did... Asset management I guess

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11-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #39
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AP just doesn't appear like an NHL player. You've gotta have some bite if you want to play in the NHL at his size. Being 5'8 is fine if you're built like a truck and play with a bite that scares people.

Barely saw him play at all last year and his production was impressive. But like I said, regardless of how he produces, he doesn't have the look of a player that will play in the NHL.

These types of "developments" are normal and expected. My pet peeve here is the people that say "I'm disappointed" or "worried" about certain low-chance prospects. It's just a casual annoyance for me but this stuff is normal, it's survival of the fittest, a prospect may thrive one year but then may see more competition come in, get discouraged, and fall off the map. The team will tell you they love certain late round prospects because those words give those low-chance prospects what they need most, motivation. But once that wears off it's the ones that can motivate themselves when the going gets tough that thrive. That's why you probably won't have to worry about a guy like Borowiecki because he'll die trying to get to the league. If he's not impressing you at the AHL level it may not be a huge deal, he's penciled in to be ready to tryout for the big club...nothing really matters with him until it's on NHL ice.

We want the best coming forward, we want them to separate from the pack, we don't want a plethora of dime a dozen players. Prospects failing and others prospering is the nature of the game.

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11-24-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
AP just doesn't appear like an NHL player. You've gotta have some bite if you want to play in the NHL at his size. Being 5'8 is fine if you're built like a truck and play with a bite that scares people.

Barely saw him play at all last year and his production was impressive. But like I said, regardless of how he produces, he doesn't have the look of a player that will play in the NHL.

These types of "developments" are normal and expected. My pet peeve here is the people that say "I'm disappointed" or "worried" about certain low-chance prospects. It's just a casual annoyance for me but this stuff is normal, it's survival of the fittest, a prospect may thrive one year but then may see more competition come in, get discouraged, and fall off the map. The team will tell you they love certain late round prospects because those words give those low-chance prospects what they need most, motivation. But once that wears off it's the ones that can motivate themselves when the going gets tough that thrive. That's why you probably won't have to worry about a guy like Borowiecki because he'll die trying to get to the league. If he's not impressing you at the AHL level it may not be a huge deal, he's penciled in to be ready to tryout for the big club...nothing really matters with him until it's on NHL ice.

We want the best coming forward, we want them to separate from the pack, we don't want a plethora of dime a dozen players. Prospects failing and others prospering is the nature of the game.
Well put..

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Old
11-24-2012, 01:39 PM
  #41
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Also, you only need to score 1 more goal than your opponent in order to win a game.


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11-24-2012, 02:06 PM
  #42
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Also, you only need to score 1 more goal than your opponent in order to win a game.

but is it really a win without biscuits?

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11-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #43
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but is it really a win without biscuits?
Hmmm...

You may have unearthed a conspiracy here:

Rotten Ronny got to Richardson somehow.

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11-24-2012, 04:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
AP just doesn't appear like an NHL player. You've gotta have some bite if you want to play in the NHL at his size. Being 5'8 is fine if you're built like a truck and play with a bite that scares people.

Barely saw him play at all last year and his production was impressive. But like I said, regardless of how he produces, he doesn't have the look of a player that will play in the NHL.

These types of "developments" are normal and expected. My pet peeve here is the people that say "I'm disappointed" or "worried" about certain low-chance prospects. It's just a casual annoyance for me but this stuff is normal, it's survival of the fittest, a prospect may thrive one year but then may see more competition come in, get discouraged, and fall off the map. The team will tell you they love certain late round prospects because those words give those low-chance prospects what they need most, motivation. But once that wears off it's the ones that can motivate themselves when the going gets tough that thrive. That's why you probably won't have to worry about a guy like Borowiecki because he'll die trying to get to the league. If he's not impressing you at the AHL level it may not be a huge deal, he's penciled in to be ready to tryout for the big club...nothing really matters with him until it's on NHL ice.

We want the best coming forward, we want them to separate from the pack, we don't want a plethora of dime a dozen players. Prospects failing and others prospering is the nature of the game.
If Andre was 2 inches taller and 20 pounds stronger (didn't say heavier), he would likely be our best prospect, at least with the most potential. Unfortunately for him, if he doesn't make the NHL as a regular, his smaller stature will really have played against him... It would be much more easier for him to make an impact if he was "physically more gifted". To me, he's always been the Karlsson of forwards, really high end boom or bust.

Petersson just turned 22 y/o two months ago, how quickly people forget that he played injured (serious back injury) the 2 years prior that he came to NA. It's basically like he was still 20 y/o

Maybe he doesn't appear like a NHL player to you and many others but I still don't care, AP has always been a long term project, boom or bust prospect and I will continue to believe in him as I want. I have no idea what's inside his head but if he really wants it, he really has a NHL skillset and a very good one too. It's up to him

And lol, I read your post again... What does it mean "he doesn't have the look of a player that will play in the NHL." ???

Sergei Samsonov had a NHL look? I could spend time to find more examples, but you know...

I also don't understand why it doesn't matter if Hoffman struggles but it matters if AP does.

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11-24-2012, 04:47 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
I'll co-sign the entire post, but it's still a case where we - despite a lot of potential NHL players in our prospect pool - won't get more than a few that will have long NHL careers, unless we get extremely lucky.
Remains to be seen but I'm unwilling to chalk it all up to luck. I think good scouting/development is a "skill" that some teams hold up very well compared to others. Now I think even doing the right things in scouting and development doesn't just yield an overabundance of lengthy long-term NHLers...you do have to be fortunate. But you do have to do well to be fortunate in the first place and I think were one of the teams that does a diligent enough job to be fortunate. Basically, you do have to be good to be lucky.

When I say I like a prospect a lot, like say JGP, I'm perfectly willing to watch him fail.....you HAVE TO BE. I think some people here actually think because a 4th-6th round pick looks nice as a prospect and lots of good things are said about him it all of a sudden makes him a guy someone should have taken in the 1st round. Not the case.

Again, just griping about the "disappointment" and "worry" people talk about when their favourite prospects are looking human.

At the end of the day, the number of players that go from Sens prospect to Ottawa Senator will depend largely on how successful we are in bringing in free agents. We do depend on a lot of players converting from prospect to player...and in order to be a top team, we rely on several of those occurances.

The positive in having too much talent in the system, or what appears to be too much talent, is the players that will inevitable rise to the top, whatever round they were picked in, are pushed by this competition more than otherwise. Just have to be hopeful that we have enough players to satisfy us, keep free agent needs down, and we make the right decisions moving our excess prospects along to poor teams.

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Well put..
Thanks bud.

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Old
11-24-2012, 07:18 PM
  #46
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Bingo seems to disagree with the idea that they have no offence

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11-25-2012, 11:41 AM
  #47
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Thin defense,meaning our forwards have to play a more safe defensive game .Zbad and slifverberg havent been scoring as much but their defensive game for being rookies has been quite good

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11-30-2012, 08:40 PM
  #48
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Bump I guess


52 goals in 17 games now (3.06 goals per game)

Prediction : top-5 offense in the AHL this season, easily

And that's without Da Costa, Cowen and without Petersson producing

Note : I have noticed that most of Bingo goals are unassisted or with only 1 assist. This is an anomaly that will balance out during the course of the season. It's another reason why the number of points looks low vs the goal production, which is good


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Old
11-30-2012, 08:58 PM
  #49
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yeah, i think we can close this thread now.

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Old
11-30-2012, 09:41 PM
  #50
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Just wait till Zibanejad heats up.

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