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Trottier vs. Crosby

View Poll Results: Who was the better player?
Trottier 56 53.85%
Crosby 48 46.15%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-30-2012, 05:19 PM
  #226
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Except of course playing with Malkin on the PP, which is where 40% of his points come from.
I thought we were talking about the list of even-strength linemates Crosby supposedly didn't carry.

Is 40% anything out of the ordinary? I have no idea what's typical so I'm just trying to understand here.

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11-30-2012, 05:51 PM
  #227
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Sid makes those around him better, more than anyone else in the NHL. Tavares is the next best in my opinion.



Omark and Schremp would dazzle people on shootouts and in practice.

I'm not sure what "skilled" exactly means. I mean, Alex Ovechkin is more "skilled" than Mike Bossy but not the better player in terms of effectiveness.

Crosby is a better skater, stickhandler more exciting player than Trottier was, not debating that. But in his prime, Trottier wasn't exactly Jason Allison. He could skate deceptively well, was a GREAT passer and he scored a lot of goals too.

Crosby would also beat Gretzky in a foot race and probably out stickhandle him (yes, some will disagree with this because 99 was deceptively quick as well), he'd have a harder shot too - but that's not how I'd evaluate the two.

Crosby IS the best player in the NHL, offensively or otherwise. Not debating that at all. But Trottier, at HIS PRIME, was arguably better than GRETZKY in some people's eyes. (Not mine) There's no amount of YouTube highlights and footage to give that kind of perspective which is pretty valid, whether you agree or not. This was at its peak after the sweep of the Oilers in '83, when 99 was seen as a fringe compiler who couldn't lead or win important games. Well, hindsight now tells us otherwise.
He 's a much much better singer and guitar player also.

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Old
11-30-2012, 07:02 PM
  #228
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I've never called trottier a "leetch", but having bossy and potvin boosted him and he even says in his legends of hockey video that he had more success because of bossy. Trottier was good, but offensively he really isn't in crosby's class. If crosby spent his prime years with ovechkin on his wing he would get bashed for it. Trottier just didnt enter the nhl the way Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby did, they entered the league as Gods, trottier entered the league as a virtual unknown. Trottier has the better career but he wont get my vote for better player, and he definitely didnt get scotty bowman's vote, lol.
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
They may have entered with hype, but trottier entered with 2 all time greats. Lindros and Crosby are easier to criticize because all of the attention was on them, while Trottier had 2 teammates that were arguably better than him.
Well, like I said he entered the NHL with Potvin already there. Bossy didn't come for two years. I think we saw enough of Trottier in those two years as a youngster to see he didn't need a whole lot of charity. He had a 95 point season. Then 123 in 1978 when Bossy is a rookie. I mean, I don't think we can give Bossy THAT much credit for that particular season. Bossy didn't even crack 100 points that year. There has to be some love to Trottier there.

I think what makes Trottier at least equal to Crosby at his best in my mind is the all around play. Really, Crosby is fine at this but Trottier excelled even better. His defense does trump Crosby's. His physicality too by a bit. Everyone talks about how well Trottier could hit. That has to count for something. And you have to remember, if we are penalizing Trottier for playing with greats, then what do we make of Malkin? See this is why I don't like this because we have enough footage to see how well a player is on his own without saying he needed linemates. I'll go on the record and say both players were too good to need charity. Those great players help, but it shouldn't take anything away from them.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But Phil, those things don't frustrate him when everything's clicking for him and the Pens.

What bothers Crosby is losing and underperforming. When that happens, he gets angry and looks for an edge elsewhere. That isn't being "taken off his game", because clearly, he didn't have his game to begin with.

I fail to see what the Pens losing the game against the Flyers when Sid fought has to do with anything, too. They were down 3-1 when he decided to fight, and fared better in the series on the whole afterward. And again, as I pointed out, Crosby can't be faulted for not stopping pucks.
Well that's the thing that's bothered me about him so far. No one ever wins when they play frustrated. Mad, maybe but not frustrated. I realize he is a competitor and that is what I love about him but part of hockey is keeping your composure too. The game is 60 minutes long. Look, he just took too many penalties in last year's playoffs. This was a series where no goalie looked good, in fact they looked awful. I hate to say it, and boy do I ever, but Claude Giroux had it figured out more because he just blitzed and went at Fleury and shot a lot. Crosby spent too much time with the nonsense.

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Old
11-30-2012, 07:03 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well, like I said he entered the NHL with Potvin already there. Bossy didn't come for two years. I think we saw enough of Trottier in those two years as a youngster to see he didn't need a whole lot of charity. He had a 95 point season. Then 123 in 1978 when Bossy is a rookie. I mean, I don't think we can give Bossy THAT much credit for that particular season. Bossy didn't even crack 100 points that year. There has to be some love to Trottier there.

I think what makes Trottier at least equal to Crosby at his best in my mind is the all around play. Really, Crosby is fine at this but Trottier excelled even better. His defense does trump Crosby's. His physicality too by a bit. Everyone talks about how well Trottier could hit. That has to count for something. And you have to remember, if we are penalizing Trottier for playing with greats, then what do we make of Malkin? See this is why I don't like this because we have enough footage to see how well a player is on his own without saying he needed linemates. I'll go on the record and say both players were too good to need charity. Those great players help, but it shouldn't take anything away from them.
I would say physically, Trottier is miles ahead of Crosby.

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Old
11-30-2012, 07:07 PM
  #230
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I thought we were talking about the list of even-strength linemates Crosby supposedly didn't carry.

Is 40% anything out of the ordinary? I have no idea what's typical so I'm just trying to understand here.
Depends on the player. Gretzky was around 30%, Mario 41%, Jagr and Yzerman about 33%, Sakic 38%.

If you look at the production of these "scrubs", it isn't all that much different than their norm playing with Crosby in his first 5 years.

Like I said though, in Sid's last 63 games, it's different but he has to do that for a few FULL seasons yet before he makes up ground and passes Trots IMO.

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11-30-2012, 10:54 PM
  #231
Czech Your Math
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These are some post-WHA stars sorted by highest % of career points scored at even strength:

PLAYER ES%
LeClair 73%
Lindros 69%
Trottier 68%
Jagr 66%
Kurri 66%
Iginla 64%
H.Sedin 64%
St.Louis 64%
D.Sedin 64%
Gretzky 64%
Stamkos 64%
Bure 63%
Thornton 63%
Tkachuk 62%
Gilmour 62%
Sundin 62%
Ovechkin 62%
Turgeon 62%
Malkin 62%
Oates 62%
Messier 62%
Yzerman 61%
Recchi 61%
Modano 61%
Fedorov 61%
Kovalchuk 60%
Forsberg 60%
Brett Hull 59%
Crosby 59%
Selanne 59%
Sakic 59%
Kariya 58%
Hawerchuk 58%
Francis 58%
Lemieux 55%

Crosby's definitely been on the low side, which means he scored a higher proportion of his points on PP/SH than your average star. That's especially true until the past two (partial) seasons, as he scored 57% at ES in his first 5 seasons. Most players tend to score a higher % of their points on PP in their last few years, which brings down their career % at ES. Also, there were fewer PPs in the early mid-80s, so players like Trottier, Gretzky, Kurri should have a slightly higher % of points at ES.

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Old
11-30-2012, 11:14 PM
  #232
redbull
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Crosby's definitely been on the low side, which means he scored a higher proportion of his points on PP/SH than your average star. That's especially true until the past two (partial) seasons, as he scored 57% at ES in his first 5 seasons. Most players tend to score a higher % of their points on PP in their last few years, which brings down their career % at ES. Also, there were fewer PPs in the early mid-80s, so players like Trottier, Gretzky, Kurri should have a slightly higher % of points at ES.
I assume short-handed is also excluded and 4on4 is included - correct? Gretzky was especially deadly 4on4 (before the league changed the rule) but also pretty impressive when short a man.

This is interesting but I wouldn't read too much into it. In gretzky's case, 64% of almost 2000 pts is a lot more than LeClair's 73%. Still interesting though.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:12 AM
  #233
Czech Your Math
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I assume short-handed is also excluded and 4on4 is included - correct? Gretzky was especially deadly 4on4 (before the league changed the rule) but also pretty impressive when short a man.

This is interesting but I wouldn't read too much into it. In gretzky's case, 64% of almost 2000 pts is a lot more than LeClair's 73%. Still interesting though.
I would guess 4 on 4 is ES, but not 100% certain.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:17 AM
  #234
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I would guess 4 on 4 is ES, but not 100% certain.
Yes, 4 on 4 is (and was) considered even strength.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:52 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I would say physically, Trottier is miles ahead of Crosby.
Yeah, that is one area that Trottier is without argument way ahead.

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