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Old
11-30-2012, 12:15 PM
  #26
SLAPSHOT723
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Byfuglien would look so weird in a Red Wings jersey.

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Old
11-30-2012, 12:19 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BigBenSF View Post
Winnipeg laughs and hangs up
Yep. This sucks for the Jets. They get a bunch of small pieces, which are similar to the ones the already have Buff is a part of their core. No reason to make this trade.

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Old
11-30-2012, 12:38 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I'm trying to figure that out as well. Not for sale.
I mean it's great to see teams wanting him, maybe he's just getting more recognition. He's not going to be traded for anything less than a huge overpayment though.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
I'm pretty skeptical about Buff's D and what level he can improve it to but he brings so much offence from the backend I can't see us trading him till some of our younger players can pick up that slack. I'm not sure if anyone has statistics on this but just from watching my guess would be his offensive capabilities outweigh his defensive gaffes?
I can. IF Byfuglien is paired with a competent defensemen and is placed in predominately offensive situations, Byfuglien's offensive prowess trumps his occasional defensive gaffs. Enstrom is a great partner for Byfuglien, and any team that wants to pick him up as a Dman better hope they have a guy like Enstrom to help Buff out. Problem for the Jets was Buff+Enstrom combined for ~40 games of injury. I don't think anyone want's a huge break down, but this will slightly paint the picture:
2011-12 Byfuglien with:
PartnerTOI CF% GF% +/-
Enstrom 724 0.558 0.522 +3
Oduya 210 0.524 0.571 +2
Stuart 159 0.489 0.211 -11
Bogosian 41 0.532 0.500 +0
Jones 31 0.339 0.000 -3
Hainsey 27 0.298 0.667 +2
Flood 26 0.533 0.763 +1
CF is a corsi ratio for the geeks. GF is the goal scoring ratio for the layman. Anything >0.500 is good. Basically if the Jets keep Byfuglien away from Stuart he turns out ok (some Jets fans are big on Stuart, I only like him for his toughness and attitude but that's about it).
As most people know, Byfuglien is a rover, and he does cause odd man rushes the other way. But in the end, he does more good than harm. I also like to point out that as a NHL defensemen he is younger than his years in the NHL since in Chicago he played forward a lot and in ATL they let him do almost whatever he wanted. Steadily these gaffs have decreased, but as a rover I doubt they will ever go away.

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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
In terms of the Detroit players coming back I really don't think White is the type of defencemen we're looking for even though I like him. I love Helm a lot but I think the 3rd and 4th line jobs are probably going to be taken up by Burmi and Slater plus we have Cormier and Antropov who could also fill those spots. Tatar has put up pretty nice stats in the AHL haven't really seen him play so I'm not really sure what his potential is?

I just don't think that is the return we would be looking to get on Buff IMO.
I agree here. I can't speak for Detroit but this doesn't help the Jets much short term or long term.

Helm is great, but not really a need for the Jets with Little, Burmistrov, Slater, Antropov, Cormier all NHL capable and ready for two-way/defensive roles, and both Sutter and Olsen in the prospect shelving (statistically between the two of them we got about 60% chance that one of them turns ok).

White is also great but again not really an area of need. Jets are probably one of a few teams with a log jam of right handed defensemen. Byfuglien and Bogosian are both great NHL dmen. Hainsey and Clitsome are ok NHL dmen and although left handed can play the right side. Postma and Redmond are all but NHL ready; it's more of a question on whether they top out as competent second or third pairing D. Trouba is in the system and pretty strong case for top end guy. Serville is a long ways off but could become a pro, although most likely a depth dman.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:17 PM
  #30
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If the Jets were to trade Byfuglien away, and I think they will eventually, it would most likely be for their areas of need. As a team with a young core they'd most likely be looking for youthful pieces as well.

The most glaring areas are three things:
A decently proven centre who can hold their ground as a 1C. I'm not talking elite 1C but capable of creating offence and setting up a high volume shooter like Ladd or Kane.
A youthful defensemen who plays leftside (rare case in the NHL for needs), who is tracking an ability to beat tough minutes and dominate the PK.
A league avg-to-above-avg goaltender (I'm not huge on Pavelec, yet)

Someone mentioned Vancouver's Kesler and Tanev... that's basically the idea, although I don't think we have any pieces we'd be willing to give up that Vancouver would want.


Last edited by garret9: 11-30-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Old
11-30-2012, 02:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
I mean it's great to see teams wanting him, maybe he's just getting more recognition. He's not going to be traded for anything less than a huge overpayment though.
Sorry, you would have to consider this deal exactly that.

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Old
11-30-2012, 03:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Sorry, you would have to consider this deal exactly that.
Yeah but a offensive defenseman isn't what we need, even if he can play on the top pair.

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11-30-2012, 04:00 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Yeah but a offensive defenseman isn't what we need, even if he can play on the top pair.
Could be the deal is still too good for me especially with the pick thrown in. I hate to see Helm go but this is the kind of overpayment that makes it happen. Not a big White fan, but I do like Tatar quite a bit, he is a very good pickup for Winnipeg here. He deserves his shot in the NHL and is similar enough to Nyquist that is a good target on their part. You got to give to get, is Buff perfect? No, but his cap figure isn't terrible and he scores a lot of points and provides a really big body on the backend.

Since I find it unlikely anybody other than the OP would take this trade it isn't worth pretending we could somehow swing Quincey in instead of White. Technically he has more value but I would much rather ship him if we are getting into which d-man to send.

I just listed Buff as my least favorite player on Winnipeg over on the NHL talk thread to give you and idea of just how good I think this deal is for the Wings. I understand wanting more of a stay at home guy, but a top pairing guy for Helm, a boarderline top 4 d-man who will be a UFA and a very good prospect at our deepest position on the farm. I mean at some point you have to pull the trigger right? I think Holland does this.

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Old
11-30-2012, 04:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I can. IF Byfuglien is paired with a competent defensemen and is placed in predominately offensive situations, Byfuglien's offensive prowess trumps his occasional defensive gaffs. Enstrom is a great partner for Byfuglien, and any team that wants to pick him up as a Dman better hope they have a guy like Enstrom to help Buff out. Problem for the Jets was Buff+Enstrom combined for ~40 games of injury. I don't think anyone want's a huge break down, but this will slightly paint the picture:
2011-12 Byfuglien with:
PartnerTOI CF% GF% +/-
Enstrom 724 0.558 0.522 +3
Oduya 210 0.524 0.571 +2
Stuart 159 0.489 0.211 -11
Bogosian 41 0.532 0.500 +0
Jones 31 0.339 0.000 -3
Hainsey 27 0.298 0.667 +2
Flood 26 0.533 0.763 +1
CF is a corsi ratio for the geeks. GF is the goal scoring ratio for the layman. Anything >0.500 is good. Basically if the Jets keep Byfuglien away from Stuart he turns out ok (some Jets fans are big on Stuart, I only like him for his toughness and attitude but that's about it).
As most people know, Byfuglien is a rover, and he does cause odd man rushes the other way. But in the end, he does more good than harm. I also like to point out that as a NHL defensemen he is younger than his years in the NHL since in Chicago he played forward a lot and in ATL they let him do almost whatever he wanted. Steadily these gaffs have decreased, but as a rover I doubt they will ever go away.



I agree here. I can't speak for Detroit but this doesn't help the Jets much short term or long term.

Helm is great, but not really a need for the Jets with Little, Burmistrov, Slater, Antropov, Cormier all NHL capable and ready for two-way/defensive roles, and both Sutter and Olsen in the prospect shelving (statistically between the two of them we got about 60% chance that one of them turns ok).

White is also great but again not really an area of need. Jets are probably one of a few teams with a log jam of right handed defensemen. Byfuglien and Bogosian are both great NHL dmen. Hainsey and Clitsome are ok NHL dmen and although left handed can play the right side. Postma and Redmond are all but NHL ready; it's more of a question on whether they top out as competent second or third pairing D. Trouba is in the system and pretty strong case for top end guy. Serville is a long ways off but could become a pro, although most likely a depth dman.
It's funny when I threw that out there I was hoping you would come across it or had already posted something on the Jets board. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
If the Jets were to trade Byfuglien away, and I think they will eventually, it would most likely be for their areas of need. As a team with a young core they'd most likely be looking for youthful pieces as well.

The most glaring areas are three things:
A decently proven centre who can hold their ground as a 1C. I'm not talking elite 1C but capable of creating offence and setting up a high volume shooter like Ladd or Kane.
A youthful defensemen who plays leftside (rare case in the NHL for needs), who is tracking an ability to beat tough minutes and dominate the PK.
A league avg-to-above-avg goaltender (I'm not huge on Pavelec, yet)

Someone mentioned Vancouver's Kesler and Tanev... that's basically the idea, although I don't think we have any pieces we'd be willing to give up that Vancouver would want.
Spot on. Though I would give up Buff for a 1st-2nd line tweener RW if we got a little something to sweeten the deal. I agree about Pavelec while I don't have the statistics to back it up (I'm sure you do ) something about his game gives my pause. He let's in a lot of soft goals it seems.

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:13 PM
  #35
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As a Winnipeg fan I'd seriously consider it. At least in the sense that I'd seriously consider trading Byfuglien for the best package available. Maybe they could find a better offer, but if this was the best I'd be comfortable with it.

People make a lot of Byfuglien's free lancing style. Personally, it doesn't bother me too much because it genuinely seems (and the stats bear it out) that he create more goals for the Jets than for their opposition.

However, the critical flaw I see in Byfuglien is that due to his easy going attitude, natural charisma and (frankly, spectacular) on ice abilities, he is a guy that the Jets younger players look to as a leader but to be blunt, I don't think he's up to the challenge.

To this point in his career Byfuglien has treated hockey like it's his job 82 evenings a year, not 365 days a year. Basically he doesn't put the time in away from the rink to maximize his talents and despite this fact, his ridiculous natural abilities still allow him to be a reasonably effective NHLer. If he worked as hard in the off season as, say, Chara he'd be an absolute lock for top 5 in Norris voting every year, but to this point in his career he doesn't seem to realize that, or, he realizes it and just doesn't have to drive to actually put in the time.

To be clear, I truly believe that Byfuglien leaves it all on the ice during the season. His record of playing through injuries, playing big minutes and fighting through unfavorable matchups speak volumes to that. The problem is, it he worked harder in the off season, he'd have noticeably more to leave on the ice.

For a team like Winnipeg to find long term success they need their young players to learn how hard they have to work to get as much as possible out of their talent. With Byfuglien as a dressing room leader, I question whether or not they'll figure it out.

Over the years in the NHL it seems that good teams come together when enough talent is accumulated, but great teams come together when the most talented players on a good team are also the hardest working.

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Old
11-30-2012, 06:39 PM
  #36
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As I said earlier, I highly doubt Winnipeg would do this.

That said, I wouldn't do this if I were running Detroit either. Value-wise it's almost certainly better on our end, but Byfuglien isn't the type of defender we need, and we can't afford to give up Helm for something we don't need.

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11-30-2012, 08:07 PM
  #37
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In my opinion, if Detroit were to inquire about buff, its as a forward, not a dman.

So on the OP, No thanks.

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11-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #38
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If this deal goes down, Fugly is playing on the wing for either Dats or Z.

That said, there's no logical reason the Wings would offer up Helm, White, and Tatar to get him. That's a package that would have to specifically be asked for.

A better option would be Enstrom, as Bogo is likely untouchable.

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Old
11-30-2012, 10:51 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If this deal goes down, Fugly is playing on the wing for either Dats or Z.

That said, there's no logical reason the Wings would offer up Helm, White, and Tatar to get him. That's a package that would have to specifically be asked for.

A better option would be Enstrom, as Bogo is likely untouchable.
I don't they would call to make the offer, but I don't think they turn down either once it is tabled. I mean come on guys I know we all like Helm a little too much but I would be very surprised if Holland didn't pull the trigger on this.

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11-30-2012, 10:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I don't they would call to make the offer, but I don't think they turn down either once it is tabled. I mean come on guys I know we all like Helm a little too much but I would be very surprised if Holland didn't pull the trigger on this.
And as I said, if the deal happens he play forward in Detroit.

No way his rover game flies with Babcock.

We'd see something like:

Byfuglien/Datsyuk/Bertuzzi
Nyquist/Zetterberg/Brunner
Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson
Cleary/Abdelkader/Tootoo

Miller/Emmerton/Mursak

Kronwall/Smith
Kindl/Ericsson
Quincey/Colaiacovo
???

Howard
Gustavsson

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Old
11-30-2012, 11:09 PM
  #41
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Buff doesn't strike me as the type if defenseman the red wings would want, not a hard worker and like to go on his own program.

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Old
11-30-2012, 11:12 PM
  #42
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Buff doesn't strike me as the type if defenseman the red wings would want, not a hard worker and like to go on his own program.
Sadly that probably describes half our d-core right now.

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Old
12-01-2012, 04:48 AM
  #43
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Sadly that probably describes half our d-core right now.
You guys have some decent pieces, adding Cola is not gonna help much though.

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Old
12-01-2012, 10:12 AM
  #44
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In my opinion, if Detroit were to inquire about buff, its as a forward, not a dman.

So on the OP, No thanks.
I don't understand this position. He scores more its as a DMan then he ever did as a fwd.

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12-01-2012, 01:27 PM
  #45
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Whenever anyone claims that Buff has more value as a forward, I get the impression that they only watched him for a single playoff run

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12-01-2012, 05:58 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Whenever anyone claims that Buff has more value as a forward, I get the impression that they only watched him for a single playoff run
That's the thing about impressions...

He isn't that great defensively, and Detroit doesn't need another offensive defenseman.

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Old
12-01-2012, 06:05 PM
  #47
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Not a chance.

Some might be down on Buff for some of the occasional gaffes he made at the beginning of the year, but he was looking solid later.

Plus he's an absolute offensive dynamo. This trade gives us essentially nothing, but 3rd line pieces with upside. No way do we trade a #1-2 Right-handed offensive defenseman for this low value AND add a pick. Ridiculous.

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Old
12-01-2012, 06:06 PM
  #48
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Wings have enough defenseman that cant play defense.

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