HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Oilers Caps /Oilers Blues

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-01-2012, 01:39 AM
  #176
judge301
Registered User
 
judge301's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedBlue247 View Post
Seriously? You're going to quote dictionary terms? He made a statement that attempted to overlook that Petry had a full year and a half of disapponting play, and is trying to say that there's not a significant gap between him and Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk has been excellent since the first game of his NHL career. Petry hasn't. And why bring RNH into it? Did he have a subpar season? Absolutely not. So he has no bearing on this conversation.
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself.. Because a player's growth is always linear, right?


Last edited by judge301: 12-01-2012 at 01:45 AM.
judge301 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:40 AM
  #177
bleedblue1223
OMAHA!!!
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 22,608
vCash: 270
Petry's excellant 2nd half included 20 points in 43 games or a 38 point pace over 82 games, and -5 rating. Shattenkirk finished the last 33 games of last season on a 50 point pace. We can also use Shattenkirk's first 38 games to his career when he was on a 56 point pace if you want to look at 1/2 seasons. Petry is not on Shattenkirk's level, and the gap is similar to the gap between Eberle and Berglund.

Don't even bring up RNH, Petry did not have even a 1/2 season like RNH or was a #1 pick like RNH.

bleedblue1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:44 AM
  #178
stlblues9
Registered User
 
stlblues9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 3530
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself..
You're ridiculous.

stlblues9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:45 AM
  #179
bleedblue1223
OMAHA!!!
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 22,608
vCash: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself..
As does yours.

bleedblue1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:50 AM
  #180
Vladys Gumption
Moderator
Trap City
 
Vladys Gumption's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 9,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself.. Because a player's growth is always linear, right?
Yea you're right. I'm using no logic whatsoever. A player that begins his career with an excellent season and following that up with a successive excellent season in which he tremendously improved his defense has the same value as a player that has one 40 game stretch of good play. No, players don't have linear growths, but I think most hockey experts would agree with me saying that Shattenkirk is the better player now, and will very likely be so in the future. Not to mention the fact that Shattenkirk had to carry Barrett "i can't make a simple outlet pass to save my life" Jackman. Don't tell me my argument isn't logical.

Vladys Gumption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:51 AM
  #181
judge301
Registered User
 
judge301's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
You're ridiculous.
DERP, LOL, Yeah, OK champ...I was respondind to a brutal post that insinuates all players progress at the same rate and that they should all be valued at current shelf value. Statistically and such, and by that logic i should deduce that Wayne Gretzky is still worth more as a player than say, Pavel Datsuk. I mean after all Gretz has more seasons and points... I know that is foolish but so is dismissing the fact that Petry has performed as well as Shattenkirk.

judge301 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:08 AM
  #182
bleedblue1223
OMAHA!!!
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 22,608
vCash: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
DERP, LOL, Yeah, OK champ...I was respondind to a brutal post that insinuates all players progress at the same rate and that they should all be valued at current shelf value. Statistically and such, and by that logic i should deduce that Wayne Gretzky is still worth more as a player than say, Pavel Datsuk. I mean after all Gretz has more seasons and points... I know that is foolish but so is dismissing the fact that Petry has performed as well as Shattenkirk.
But he didn't even do that lol.

bleedblue1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:13 AM
  #183
Vladys Gumption
Moderator
Trap City
 
Vladys Gumption's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 9,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
DERP, LOL, Yeah, OK champ...I was respondind to a brutal post that insinuates all players progress at the same rate and that they should all be valued at current shelf value. Statistically and such, and by that logic i should deduce that Wayne Gretzky is still worth more as a player than say, Pavel Datsuk. I mean after all Gretz has more seasons and points... I know that is foolish but so is dismissing the fact that Petry has performed as well as Shattenkirk.
Also, epic fail on the Datsyuk and Gretzky comparison. Gretzky was on another planet than just about any player to ever step foot on an ice hockey rink.

Vladys Gumption is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:23 AM
  #184
Moore Money
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,594
vCash: 500
in what world does Petry have the same value as Shattenkirk? LOL

just like Dubnyk = Schneider...


Last edited by Leaf Rocket: 12-01-2012 at 03:52 AM. Reason: no.
Moore Money is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:43 AM
  #185
Paralyzer008
Registered User
 
Paralyzer008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
in what world does Petry have the same value as Shattenkirk? LOL

just like Dubnyk = Schneider...
I don't think anyone was saying he has the same value, or at least I certainly don't think like that.

Shattenkirk is definitely better than Petry, no arguing that. Petry has a cheap deal, which is nice, but Kevin has a lot more value. However, we aren't moving one of our dressing room leaders at this time (Eberle), plain and simple, and I think Eberle has more value than Shattenkirk, even if it's a tiny bit.

As for the Eberle/Petry for Carlson, I think Washington wins that one hands down, Eberle has more value than Carlson, but I can see why Washington doesn't do that one, because Carlson is a minute-muncher who still has the potential to be the No.1 D for years to come.

If Edmonton grabs a D, it's going to be Hemsky/Paajarvi/Gagner/other going the other way, not one of our fab 4. That's how it shakes down. That's also why we haven't traded for one yet


Last edited by Leaf Rocket: 12-01-2012 at 03:52 AM. Reason: qep
Paralyzer008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:47 AM
  #186
CSimpson18
Registered User
 
CSimpson18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,236
vCash: 500
Petry isn't the same type of dman as shattenkirk. Point production isn't his main focus. He's An all-around type whereas shattenkirk is an offensive dman. And his defence is being overrated here. Petry is better defensively.

Do not take this to mean I think petry is worth more. But he's closer to shattenkirk than berglund is to eberle, And I'm surprised this is even being disputed. Eberle is on a whole different level.

CSimpson18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:50 AM
  #187
CSimpson18
Registered User
 
CSimpson18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,236
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
I don't think anyone was saying he has the same value, or at least I certainly don't think like that.

Shattenkirk is definitely better than Petry, no arguing that. Petry has a cheap deal, which is nice, but Kevin has a lot more value. However, we aren't moving one of our dressing room leaders at this time (Eberle), plain and simple, and I think Eberle has more value than Shattenkirk, even if it's a tiny bit.
)
You're ******* right he does. Was that really in doubt? Did I miss the post that said shattenkirk>eberle, cause I could use a good laugh.

CSimpson18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 12:59 PM
  #188
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
Bozo Buddies
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 51,809
vCash: 500
Firstly I'll start my post by saying that Shattenkirk is better than Petry and he holds more value. However Shattenkirk is more of a Justin Schultz type of a D (offensive with solid D) while Petry is more of a two way D who plays a more physical game and doesn't get as many PP minutes.

Shattenkirk 81gp. (ES 4-20-24 1,361:51 TOI = ES point/56:45 minutes) (PP 5-13-18 231:57 TOI = PP point/12:53 minutes) (SH 0-1-1 155:53 TOI) 72 hits 103 blocked shots 42 Giveaways 40 Takeaways

Petry 73gp. (ES 1-18-19 1,313:23 TOI = ES Point/69:08 minutes) (PP 1-5-6 93:26 TOI = PP Point/15:34 minutes) (SH 0-0-0 181:42 TOI) 126 hits 126 blocked shots 89 Giveaways 36 Takeaways

You can see that Shattenkirk played much more on the PP, less on the PK (despite playing 8 more games), and less per game at ES. Petry doesn't have the offensive upside that Shattenkirk does, but it's not nearly as big of a gap as Eberle and Berglund's. Petry will be more of a two way/physical defensive guy, one thing that Shattenkirk had solidly in his favor was the fact that he was much less prone to turn the puck over, that is something that Petry was much better at in the second half of last season.

IMO Petry will be a solid compliment to Schultz for us, bigger, more physical, and more defensive minded.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:46 PM
  #189
SteenMachine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fenton, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 4,163
vCash: 500
Let's look a Petry's competition for ice time... oh right a bunch of players who barely survived half a season and had generally horrendous +/- and a horrible team record despite a glorified .914 save percentage starting goalie.

Shattenkirk's? A Norris candidate, a physical monster in Roman Polak and the statistically best defensive core in the NHL. Yeah I wonder why he couldn't "earn" more PK shifts and defensive zone coverage. Oh right... his coach actually wins games through team defense.

I guess you get more chances to block shots and hit players when you can't hold onto the puck to save your life. With your superior defensive play and all you still manage to finish a -7 compared to a +20. Poor Petry is so underrated, if only he had any evidence like Shattenkirk to prove his value as a player instead of a hot streak of a sample size.

SteenMachine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:03 PM
  #190
CSimpson18
Registered User
 
CSimpson18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,236
vCash: 500
Good for you. You've effectively demonstrated that petry had similar results with far worse teammates and a worse team in general. Imagine if petry could play on the blues? He'd look amazing!

CSimpson18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 04:10 PM
  #191
bleedblue1223
OMAHA!!!
 
bleedblue1223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 22,608
vCash: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Good for you. You've effectively demonstrated that petry had similar results with far worse teammates and a worse team in general. Imagine if petry could play on the blues? He'd look amazing!
But once again, he didn't have similar results.

bleedblue1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 05:03 PM
  #192
Oshie97
Registered User
 
Oshie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Good for you. You've effectively demonstrated that petry had similar results with far worse teammates and a worse team in general. Imagine if petry could play on the blues? He'd look amazing!
Similar results? I forgot he was the 2nd best d-man on one of the best defenses in the league.

Oshie97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 08:33 PM
  #193
Redden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 77
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteenMachine View Post
Let's look a Petry's competition for ice time... oh right a bunch of players who barely survived half a season and had generally horrendous +/- and a horrible team record despite a glorified .914 save percentage starting goalie.

Shattenkirk's? A Norris candidate, a physical monster in Roman Polak and the statistically best defensive core in the NHL. Yeah I wonder why he couldn't "earn" more PK shifts and defensive zone coverage. Oh right... his coach actually wins games through team defense.

I guess you get more chances to block shots and hit players when you can't hold onto the puck to save your life. With your superior defensive play and all you still manage to finish a -7 compared to a +20. Poor Petry is so underrated, if only he had any evidence like Shattenkirk to prove his value as a player instead of a hot streak of a sample size.
Yes Edmontons defence was awful which would make Petrys play all the more impressive. And how is dubnyks save percentage glorified? If we had an awful set of d wouldn't that make his save percentage more impressive? Bad goalie + bad defence doesn't usually equal a .914 save percentage.
There is no doubt shattenkirk is a better d right now but he also has the benefit of playing with way better players which helps the stats. if petry played with St. Louis he'd have way better stats than with Edmonton. Stats don't tell the whole story unless you know the situation the player is playing in.

Redden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 08:53 PM
  #194
SDig14
Registered User
 
SDig14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,619
vCash: 500
This thread is a disaster, so much arguing but not a lot of progress. CBA bargaining 2.0.

SDig14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 09:10 PM
  #195
bluesfan94
#BackesforSelke
 
bluesfan94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 8,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself.. Because a player's growth is always linear, right?
So Petry will definitely get better even though he is older than Shattenkirk?

bluesfan94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 09:11 PM
  #196
bluemandan
Ya Ma Goo!
 
bluemandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedBlue247 View Post
Seriously? You're going to quote dictionary terms? He made a statement that attempted to overlook that Petry had a full year and a half of disapponting play, and is trying to say that there's not a significant gap between him and Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk has been excellent since the first game of his NHL career. Petry hasn't. And why bring RNH into it? Did he have a subpar season? Absolutely not. So he has no bearing on this conversation.
I think my favorite part of his quoting dictionary.com was that he included posts from the comments section. One of which equated logic with common knowledge, which is horribly wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
L-O-G-I-C...... Do i need to explain it slower for some? Your statement speaks for itself.. Because a player's growth is always linear, right?
Well, when you post a definition of logic that includes a part claiming that logic is the same thing as common knowledge, you might need to explain it slower for yourself.

Nobody claiming that a player's growth is always linear. They claimed that Shattenkirk has proven himself more at every single level than Petry, including the only level that matters to us, the NHL. Shattenkirk has had four times the sustained success at this level than Petry, has a higher projected ceiling going forward than Petry, and has the more desired skill set in the NHL. It is simple logic that Shattenkirk holds significantly more value than Petry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judge301 View Post
DERP, LOL, Yeah, OK champ...I was respondind to a brutal post that insinuates all players progress at the same rate and that they should all be valued at current shelf value. Statistically and such, and by that logic i should deduce that Wayne Gretzky is still worth more as a player than say, Pavel Datsuk. I mean after all Gretz has more seasons and points... I know that is foolish but so is dismissing the fact that Petry has performed as well as Shattenkirk.
The post you responded to did nothing of the sort. Stop reading things that aren't there. The post you responded to simply claimed that due to being successful at the NHL for four times as long, Shattenkirk has more value than Petry.

Saying that Petry has performed as well as Shattenkirk is akin to me saying that Brad Boyes has performed as well as Jarome Iginla. After all, they both have scored over 40 goals in a season....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Good for you. You've effectively demonstrated that petry had similar results with far worse teammates and a worse team in general. Imagine if petry could play on the blues? He'd look amazing!
??? Please explain. He did no such thing. 2-23-25 with a -7 is NOT similar results to 9-34-43 with a +20

Petry would bring nothing to the Blues that Barrett Jackman, Roman Polak, and Ian Cole don't already provide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redden View Post
Yes Edmontons defence was awful which would make Petrys play all the more impressive. And how is dubnyks save percentage glorified? If we had an awful set of d wouldn't that make his save percentage more impressive? Bad goalie + bad defence doesn't usually equal a .914 save percentage.
There is no doubt shattenkirk is a better d right now but he also has the benefit of playing with way better players which helps the stats. if petry played with St. Louis he'd have way better stats than with Edmonton. Stats don't tell the whole story unless you know the situation the player is playing in.
The only stat of Petry's that would improve would be his plus-minus. Shattenkirk plays with less talented offensive players than Petry. If you think Petry's stats would improve by him transitioning to Backes and Oshie instead of Hall and Eberle, I would have to disagree with you. Just so you know, Backes and Oshie both scored 54 points, in 82 and 80 game respectively. They outscored Hall by one point each, despite playing in roughly 20 more games each. Edmonton also outscored St. Louis this past season.

I would expect an increase in plus/minus with a decrease in points from Jeff Petry were he to join the Blues.

I would expect the opposite if Shattenkirk would join the Oilers. I would expect 55+ points out of Shattenkirk on the Oilers. Not only would he be playing with ~80+ point forwards instead of ~50+ point forwards, he would be the go to offensive defenseman instead of taking a backseat to Pietrangelo.

Shattenkirk has shown he is capable of putting up the points on a bad team. He was on a 46 point pace during his time in Colorado during his rookie season.

You are correct though, stats don't tell the whole story. Which is this:

Trading Shattenkirk would create a hole on the Blues' roster. (2nd unit PPQB, 2nd pairing PMD)
Jeff Petry would be redundant on the Blues roster. (we already have Jackman, Polak, and Cole.)
Shattenkirk is more proven.
Shattenkirk has the more desired skill set league wide.
Shattenkirk is younger. <--- being completely overlooked, whose to say he doesn't have a similar breakout during the second half next year at the same age as Petry did?

bluemandan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 09:15 PM
  #197
Sloth Slothersons*
They cut my beard
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,329
vCash: 500
Petry is the best forward in the league

Sloth Slothersons* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 11:26 PM
  #198
Redden
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 77
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post


The only stat of Petry's that would improve would be his plus-minus. Shattenkirk plays with less talented offensive players than Petry. If you think Petry's stats would improve by him transitioning to Backes and Oshie instead of Hall and Eberle, I would have to disagree with you. Just so you know, Backes and Oshie both scored 54 points, in 82 and 80 game respectively. They outscored Hall by one point each, despite playing in roughly 20 more games each. Edmonton also outscored St. Louis this past season.

I would expect an increase in plus/minus with a decrease in points from Jeff Petry were he to join the Blues.

I would expect the opposite if Shattenkirk would join the Oilers. I would expect 55+ points out of Shattenkirk on the Oilers. Not only would he be playing with ~80+ point forwards instead of ~50+ point forwards, he would be the go to offensive defenseman instead of taking a backseat to Pietrangelo.

Shattenkirk has shown he is capable of putting up the points on a bad team. He was on a 46 point pace during his time in Colorado during his rookie season.

You are correct though, stats don't tell the whole story. Which is this:

Trading Shattenkirk would create a hole on the Blues' roster. (2nd unit PPQB, 2nd pairing PMD)
Jeff Petry would be redundant on the Blues roster. (we already have Jackman, Polak, and Cole.)
Shattenkirk is more proven.
Shattenkirk has the more desired skill set league wide.
Shattenkirk is younger. <--- being completely overlooked, whose to say he doesn't have a similar breakout during the second half next year at the same age as Petry did?
I'm thinking petry would be a 30-40 point Defenceman on st Louis. But his game isn't as an offensive dman. He's like a physical jay bouwmeester but obviously not as good of a skater. His value doesn't always show up on the score sheet but he's the the type of d that gets the pick out of your zone and helps keep it out.
Shattenkirk is undoubtedly the better offensive player and I think you're accurate with the amount of points he'd put up with the oilers. Petry though is better defensively. Shattenkirks trade value is way higher than petry because there are so few elite offensive d men but his overall value, from the oilers perspective at least, isn't a bunch higher than petry.
An petry is a much better puck mover than jackman and polak, I haven't seen cole play

Redden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-02-2012, 03:19 PM
  #199
5RingsAndABeer
John MacKinnon Fan
 
5RingsAndABeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 11,511
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
I had a big post ready to go, but I'd rather not further derail this thread, so I'll keep it short. Hemsky's issues are all the same, those torn labrums in his shoulder. Those will stay with him in the future. Green has been pretty healthy up until a year and a half ago when he got a concussion, followed by a fluky ankle injury and a sports hernia. Those injuries are totally unrelated, and carry no lasting effects besides an increased susceptibility to concussions (which Hemsky has as well). I was hoping that poster would look a little deeper than games played and discover the difference between Hemsky and Green's situations.
It could easily be argued that since all of Hemsky's injuries stem from his torn labrum, successful surgical intervention might solve all of them.

5RingsAndABeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 11:43 AM
  #200
bluemandan
Ya Ma Goo!
 
bluemandan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redden View Post
I'm thinking petry would be a 30-40 point Defenceman on st Louis. But his game isn't as an offensive dman. He's like a physical jay bouwmeester but obviously not as good of a skater. His value doesn't always show up on the score sheet but he's the the type of d that gets the pick out of your zone and helps keep it out.
Shattenkirk is undoubtedly the better offensive player and I think you're accurate with the amount of points he'd put up with the oilers. Petry though is better defensively. Shattenkirks trade value is way higher than petry because there are so few elite offensive d men but his overall value, from the oilers perspective at least, isn't a bunch higher than petry.
An petry is a much better puck mover than jackman and polak, I haven't seen cole play
30-40 points for Petry on the Blues? Really?

I think you are way off base. You are anticipating a 5-15 point jump in production from a player that has only has one season with more than 30 points, and that in the USHL six years ago. A jump that big would put Petry in the second level of PMD in the entire league.

40 points would put Petry at 19th in the league last season, tied with Duncan Keith.

35 points would put Petry at 29th in the league last season, one point better than Lidstrom.

30 points would put Petry at 41st in the league last season, tied with Alex Goligoski.

Can you provide any reasoning as to why you think Petry would score at these levels on a lower scoring team (overall) while playing with lower scoring players than while in Edmonton?


Last edited by bluemandan: 12-03-2012 at 11:51 AM. Reason: grammar
bluemandan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.