HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The education of NHL players vs all other pro sports

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-28-2012, 10:21 AM
  #76
Reimer
Tambo Troll Face
 
Reimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Tough to answer such a question, does going to college actually mean that someone actually passed or were they passed because of who they were.
*cough*Dion*cough*

...and that was just for high school.

Reimer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2012, 09:16 PM
  #77
jumptheshark
McDavid Headquarters
 
jumptheshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: EVIL EMPIRE
Country: United Nations
Posts: 59,131
vCash: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am sorry, but I do not believe this. It is an urban myth.
I stopped following uni sports (but hockey) after my last trip stateside and just was shocked with the stuff that I saw at the uni i saw games at and what my escort told me (escort in the sense that member alumni showed me around). The NCAA claims they have cut down on the crap. But yet, a quick look around indicates that not many starters on football scholarships actually graduate. The NCAA only gives the overall % of all sports for those who are a part of the NCAA for those who get a degree. They only give hard numbers when they are before congress, which has not been for awhile. Because of the money involved in collage basketball and football, some unis find every loophole they can.

At the next draft, which will be for the NFL in early 2013, as players get drafted, see how many actually did the full four years at the collage and how many only did the magic two or three.

I know about 6 or 7 years ago, more % uni hockey players played until they got their degree then both basketball and football players.

__________________
"If the Detroit Red Wings are defying gravity" by consistently contending without the benefit of high draft picks, "the Edmonton Oilers are defying lift.

Welcome to Edmonton Connor McDavid--the rest of you HA HA HA HA HA HA
jumptheshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2012, 11:11 PM
  #78
Bangers
Registered User
 
Bangers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Thailand
Posts: 1,765
vCash: 500
Is what the players say really an indication of their intelligence? Or just how media-savvy they are?

Take Crosby for example.

He generally sounds much more articulate than most players his age, but is it because he's smarter or because he's been trained how to deal with the media since he was 14.

Ovechkin,on the other hand, sounds a right moron every time he opens his mouth.

Bangers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2012, 11:22 PM
  #79
Groucho
Tier 1 Fan
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Displaced
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangers View Post
Is what the players say really an indication of their intelligence? Or just how media-savvy they are?

Take Crosby for example.

He generally sounds much more articulate than most players his age, but is it because he's smarter or because he's been trained how to deal with the media since he was 14.

Ovechkin,on the other hand, sounds a right moron every time he opens his mouth.
Clearly you haven't heard his Moscow raps.

Groucho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 03:39 AM
  #80
Zap Brannigan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuswald View Post
I do believe there was a rule in the Edmonton school board to never fail a student. One teacher spoke out and was reprimanded.
I wish someone would have told me about this years ago. I would have gone to class less

Zap Brannigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 09:41 AM
  #81
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I stopped following uni sports (but hockey) after my last trip stateside and just was shocked with the stuff that I saw at the uni i saw games at and what my escort told me (escort in the sense that member alumni showed me around). The NCAA claims they have cut down on the crap. But yet, a quick look around indicates that not many starters on football scholarships actually graduate. The NCAA only gives the overall % of all sports for those who are a part of the NCAA for those who get a degree. They only give hard numbers when they are before congress, which has not been for awhile. Because of the money involved in collage basketball and football, some unis find every loophole they can.

At the next draft, which will be for the NFL in early 2013, as players get drafted, see how many actually did the full four years at the collage and how many only did the magic two or three.

I know about 6 or 7 years ago, more % uni hockey players played until they got their degree then both basketball and football players.

When you say that at the draft "see how many actually did the full four years at the collage and how many only did the magic two or three", what is it that you want me to take away from this. I have already said that this is the worng sample to look at.

The NFL allows players who have been out of high school for three years to enter the draft. If you are a top end player who is looking at making millions at 22 leaving school early can be a legitimate option. But this is the player's choice and is not some conspiracy by NCAA schools to prevent these players from getting bogus degrees. It is also far less common for players with less than 4 years of school to enter the draft than you seem to suggest it is.

I am not suggesting that things are perfect, far from it. In fact I found some pretty good data that shows my original estimate of 70-80% was high for many schools but also shows your 20% number to be way off.

http://stanford.scout.com/2/1183346.html

When you read the article you need to remember that there are two numbers being presented. One is the actual data based on players who stay with the program all of the way through. The second is the FBS that measures the rate at which freshmen complete degrees in that school. In the FBS model transfers for example count against the program as do players who leave th team for any reason, even if they do eventually graduate.

The Football averages for the various conferences are:

Pac 12 ---63% (Stanford at 87%, Cal at 57%!! Both top notch schools)
Big Ten ---71% (Generally these are very good academic schools)
SEC ---65% (Not surprisingly Vanderbilt is the top at 87%)
Big 12---60% (These schools produce a lot of pros!)
ACC ---72% (Some excellent schools in this group)
Big East ---72% (Again, some very good schools)

Some independents:
Notre Dame 97% (Notre Dame is a very good school academically)
Navy 91%
TCU 78%
Boise St. 74%
BYU 57%

Something else to note is that there are schools in the mix like Oklahoma (48%) and Texas (59%) that have relatively low graduation rates but very high rates of producing pro players. In the case of Oklahoma they may well see 20+% of their seniors end up being drafted. Texas, which is an excellent school academically also has a very high rate of producing pros.

Basketball numbers are more varied. But these can also fluctuate from year to year because of small sample sizes.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 10:10 AM
  #82
Oil Gauge
5+14+6+1=97
 
Oil Gauge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am sorry, but I do not believe this. It is an urban myth.
You don't believe that it ever happened ever????

Oil Gauge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2012, 10:27 AM
  #83
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
You don't believe that it ever happened ever????
That is not what I said.

In fact here is what I wrote.

Quote:
I am not naive enough to believe that it never happens. But when you say "all the time" that suggests it is routine. I have had this discussion with friends of mine who work in many of the big US schools. They have typically never heard of people being pressured to pass athletes.
I honestly do not know anyone who would tolerate this.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 08:42 AM
  #84
Quinteoilers
Registered User
 
Quinteoilers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 346
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I don't think education has anything to do with it.

One thing I have been thinking about, is a lot of hockey players come from upper/middle class backgrounds. Lower class children are basically priced out of hockey. They might have a more 'entitled' perspective. Just a theory.
Your right, hockey is a rich kids game...but that's for another thread. I work in Kingston ith some guys who went to school with Taylor Hall. They didn't say we was dumb, but didn't care about school because he was going to the NHL.

Dexter Manly was functionally illiterate when he "graduated" from the University of Miami...

Quinteoilers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 09:03 AM
  #85
Oil Gauge
5+14+6+1=97
 
Oil Gauge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
That is not what I said.

In fact here is what I wrote.



I honestly do not know anyone who would tolerate this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am sorry, but I do not believe this. It is an urban myth.

You said it was an urban myth.

I don't know anyone who would tolerate this either. I also don't know anyone who has Aids either, I guess both are urban myths?

Oil Gauge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 10:05 AM
  #86
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
You said it was an urban myth.

I don't know anyone who would tolerate this either. I also don't know anyone who has Aids either, I guess both are urban myths?
Here is what you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I haven't heard of it happening lately, that's why I said it happened all the time. I really can't say if it happens often anymore or not.

It used to be that if you played football basketball or baseball at some big US athletic colleges you would just put your name on the test hand it in and your grade would be taken care of.
Do you have any concrete evidence that this really happened in a systematic way you say it did? I am not talking about three cases over two decades I am talking about the kind of scale that would back up what you claim. I think I can find evidence that AIDS is real.

When I say I don't know anyone who would tolerate this that opinion comes from about 30 years in an academic environment as both a faculty member and an administrator, as well as having been involved in football at the university level. Now of course we are talking about big US schools but I also know many people who teach in schools like Stanford, UCLA, Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska, Duke, Oklahoma, Colorado, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia Tech,Texas, Texas A&M, UNLV, Brown, Illinois, Washington, Wisconsin,Indiana, Houston,...

As I said I would be naive to believe that there have not been isolated incidents or that there might not be schools where athletes get some breaks, but to suggest that it would be routine that a player could hand in a blank exam and have a grade appear out of nowhere? If someone in my Department was caught doing this it would be grounds for dismissal. Any administrator who tried to force tenured faculty to do such a thing on a significant scale would be risking their job as well. Moreover, the NCAA would nuke the school if they were ever caught.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 11:18 AM
  #87
Oil Gauge
5+14+6+1=97
 
Oil Gauge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Here is what you wrote:



Do you have any concrete evidence that this really happened in a systematic way you say it did? I am not talking about three cases over two decades I am talking about the kind of scale that would back up what you claim. I think I can find evidence that AIDS is real.

When I say I don't know anyone who would tolerate this that opinion comes from about 30 years in an academic environment as both a faculty member and an administrator, as well as having been involved in football at the university level. Now of course we are talking about big US schools but I also know many people who teach in schools like Stanford, UCLA, Michigan, Ohio State, Nebraska, Duke, Oklahoma, Colorado, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia Tech,Texas, Texas A&M, UNLV, Brown, Illinois, Washington, Wisconsin,Indiana, Houston,...

As I said I would be naive to believe that there have not been isolated incidents or that there might not be schools where athletes get some breaks, but to suggest that it would be routine that a player could hand in a blank exam and have a grade appear out of nowhere? If someone in my Department was caught doing this it would be grounds for dismissal. Any administrator who tried to force tenured faculty to do such a thing on a significant scale would be risking their job as well. Moreover, the NCAA would nuke the school if they were ever caught.
One example I can share was an old Baseball coach I had. He played College ball somewhere in the states, I forget what school. This happened when he was playing. He would be told to do this with his exams.

He's probably 55-60 years old now so this happened 30-40 years ago, but it did happen. I highly doubt he was the only one, he did go on to the majors, but he was by no means a superstar.

Oil Gauge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 03:48 PM
  #88
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
One example I can share was an old Baseball coach I had. He played College ball somewhere in the states, I forget what school. This happened when he was playing. He would be told to do this with his exams.

He's probably 55-60 years old now so this happened 30-40 years ago, but it did happen. I highly doubt he was the only one, he did go on to the majors, but he was by no means a superstar.
My intention is not to be a jerk about this. I have lots of issues with how college sports are run in the big US schools. And it is possible that what your coach said could have happened.

But such incidents would be very rare. The action you are describing would be a major breach of academic integrity, and as I said could easily get the instructor dismissed. Someone who invests 10-12 years in school, maybe 3 more as a postdoc and then 5 more to get tenure would be extremely unlikely to risk their career because a kid in their class was on the football or basketball team.

Cheating to help a kid pass is a much more likely scenario. Unfortunately cheating is pretty much an epidemic these days.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 06:09 PM
  #89
tempest2i
You and Whose Army?
 
tempest2i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cowtown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,066
vCash: 500
Not to mention Athletes in university are commonly taking classes in joke degrees with no interest in learning an tangible skill.

Complete Aside: I believed that standards were higher and athletes were smarter in Canadian universities right up to the point that I sat next to a couple UofA hockey players in a 200 level Earth Sciences class for a semester. They were beyond dense. A 12 year old honour student could have easily passed that class. They struggled with even the simplest concepts.

tempest2i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 06:17 PM
  #90
tempest2i
You and Whose Army?
 
tempest2i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cowtown
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,066
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
My intention is not to be a jerk about this. I have lots of issues with how college sports are run in the big US schools. And it is possible that what your coach said could have happened.

But such incidents would be very rare. The action you are describing would be a major breach of academic integrity, and as I said could easily get the instructor dismissed. Someone who invests 10-12 years in school, maybe 3 more as a postdoc and then 5 more to get tenure would be extremely unlikely to risk their career because a kid in their class was on the football or basketball team.

Cheating to help a kid pass is a much more likely scenario. Unfortunately cheating is pretty much an epidemic these days.
This post sounds incredibly naive.

tempest2i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 07:48 PM
  #91
Oil Gauge
5+14+6+1=97
 
Oil Gauge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
My intention is not to be a jerk about this. I have lots of issues with how college sports are run in the big US schools. And it is possible that what your coach said could have happened.

But such incidents would be very rare. The action you are describing would be a major breach of academic integrity, and as I said could easily get the instructor dismissed. Someone who invests 10-12 years in school, maybe 3 more as a postdoc and then 5 more to get tenure would be extremely unlikely to risk their career because a kid in their class was on the football or basketball team.

Cheating to help a kid pass is a much more likely scenario. Unfortunately cheating is pretty much an epidemic these days.
I have no doubt that this is probably true in todays colleges, I'm talking about the 70's or 80's. I would imagine that things have changed a lot since then.

Oil Gauge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 09:10 PM
  #92
jumptheshark
McDavid Headquarters
 
jumptheshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: EVIL EMPIRE
Country: United Nations
Posts: 59,131
vCash: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
My intention is not to be a jerk about this. I have lots of issues with how college sports are run in the big US schools. And it is possible that what your coach said could have happened.

But such incidents would be very rare. The action you are describing would be a major breach of academic integrity, and as I said could easily get the instructor dismissed. Someone who invests 10-12 years in school, maybe 3 more as a postdoc and then 5 more to get tenure would be extremely unlikely to risk their career because a kid in their class was on the football or basketball team.

Cheating to help a kid pass is a much more likely scenario. Unfortunately cheating is pretty much an epidemic these days.
I know about 10 years ago there was an article in SI where at one uni where football players had questionable educational skill, that the uni was selective in what classes they took and which professors they had,

My brother did uni in a southern state and he was aghast by what went on with the players getting away with not attending classes and other stuff(this was in the 80;s). Every so often we get some insight into what happens and then the NCAA steps up and says a lot of stuff, but the NCAA is not a proactive organisation, they are reactive only when pushed

jumptheshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 09:51 PM
  #93
nullterm
Registered User
 
nullterm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Port Moody, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,558
vCash: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangers View Post
Take Crosby for example.

He generally sounds much more articulate than most players his age, but is it because he's smarter or because he's been trained how to deal with the media since he was 14.
Probably both. Crosby seems like a smart guy, atleast on the hockey player curve.

nullterm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 11:25 PM
  #94
bucks_oil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
You do realize that Universities in the US have tens of millions riding on athletics. A good sports program equals big bucks.
You do realize I was arguing that it would be more likely to happen in universities (due to money) than in high schools, right?

bucks_oil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 11:41 PM
  #95
bucks_oil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
Probably both. Crosby seems like a smart guy, atleast on the hockey player curve.
To my earlier post... That at some point intelligence itself can be (one of the) the attribute that separates the elite players.

I think it would be near impossible to argue that Gretzky, Crosby or The Nuge could be the players they are if they were dullards. There is a lot of info on a rink to process at high speed, and in their case it is hard to argue that the separation is purely physical, or coaching.

As for the rest of this thread, I think people are getting wound up in definitions. Being sharp or intelligent doesn't need to mean well-read or educated, nor vice versa.

I also can't be convinced that education can't train or enhance one's capability for intelligence (but agreed it isn't the only way).

bucks_oil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2012, 11:46 PM
  #96
bucks_oil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,239
vCash: 500
Oh yes, and final point.... I DO think the behavior that prompted this thread has a lot more to do with a lack of education (perspective and context) than it does a lack of intelligence.

A dual core processor does you little good if you don't have any software

bucks_oil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 12:32 AM
  #97
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,229
vCash: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
I'd say its about a 99.9999999% chance that that's why.

For the record, just because NFL players have degrees, it doesn't mean they're smart or even very educated (I'm certainly not saying that's the case for everyone)
that's right. Dexter Manely went to college as an illiterate. if one were to look at the courses most of these athletes take in college, and the marks they achieve, i think you'd find that their education does not necessarily make one smart.

Up the Irons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 05:46 AM
  #98
Fourier
Registered User
 
Fourier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
This post sounds incredibly naive.
Which part is naive. That someone who invested almost 20 years to finally get tenure would not want to risk their career because they were afraid to fail an athlete? What would be the incentive to do this. Fear of an administrator? You do realise that if someone with tenure is dismissed for a violation like this they would never get another academic job.

Or am I being naive to believe that cheating is epidemic these days?

I have already said that I have no problem with believing that things like this have happened. But the suggestion was that handing in a blank exam and having the grade "taken care of" was the normal course of business across big US schools.

If you look at the top schools in the US in sports like football and basketball many of them are also very good academically. Duke, Notre Dame, UCLA, Michigan, Texas, ...these are all superb academic institutions. Permanent staff at these schools would be world class scholars. What is in it for them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I have no doubt that this is probably true in todays colleges, I'm talking about the 70's or 80's. I would imagine that things have changed a lot since then.
Lots has changed for the 70's and 80's as far as universities are concerned. It certainly would have been easier in the past to sweep this kind of thing under the table. But I doubt it was ever as wide-spread as people think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I know about 10 years ago there was an article in SI where at one uni where football players had questionable educational skill, that the uni was selective in what classes they took and which professors they had,

My brother did uni in a southern state and he was aghast by what went on with the players getting away with not attending classes and other stuff(this was in the 80;s). Every so often we get some insight into what happens and then the NCAA steps up and says a lot of stuff, but the NCAA is not a proactive organisation, they are reactive only when pushed
I have no doubt that the atheletic departments do manage the programs of their student athletes. Being selective with classes andeven with who teaches them is the easiest way to keep a student eligible. This is a far cry from the type of corruption I have been responding to in the first part of this post.

The other thing to take into consideration is that while it is easy to single out high profile athletes for this behaviour, what you are describing happens all the time with students who are pretty much anonymous. Anyone who believes that attending university equates to being educated is fooling themselves. Even the staunchest supporters will tell you that what schools do is to provide an opportunity for their students. What any individual gets out of their time at school rests mostly on their own shoulders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
Oh yes, and final point.... I DO think the behavior that prompted this thread has a lot more to do with a lack of education (perspective and context) than it does a lack of intelligence.

A dual core processor does you little good if you don't have any software
It is worth noting that as your post suggests, there is a big difference between intelligence and education. Common sense comes into play here as well.

Where education can help is to let players avoid things like Ovie math where Ovechkin somehow calculated that if the players accepted the owners offer he would end up with only 13% of his salary. Ultimately though, emotion and common sense are probably bigger players in this than the level of education a player might have.

Fourier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 11:37 AM
  #99
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Pro athletes are less intelligent than the general population. They play a sport and many of them take full advantage of the mental holiday that provides. They stay dumb and don't care.

I went to school with many Western Hockey League players. Yes, some took school seriously and did well but, most did not. I went to school with players (some made the NHL some didn't) that slept during class, didn't do any of the work and failed miserably because they didn't care at all.

As a result, you have a highly unintelligent PA, desperately looking to Don Fehr for guidance.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 01:10 PM
  #100
Oi'll say!
Go Flames
 
Oi'll say!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oil in 9
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Some independents:
Notre Dame 97% (Notre Dame is a very good school academically)
Wow, I'm surprised to see that the Notre Dame players are such great academics. And they're also good enough football players to sell out a 105,000 seat stadium and play every Saturday on national tv. For no money.

Oi'll say! is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:03 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.