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11-28-2012, 11:11 AM
  #376
Bender
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're referring to, but when was the AAV not the cap number? That's the way it is now, and will be under Bettman's proposal from what I can see. That's what spawned the backdiving contracts, to drive down the cap hit in the short term while risking a potential large one in relative value at the end unless they retire.

Luongo's salary is $1M in his final year, but his cap hit ($5.33M) is the same this year, as it will be in the final year under both the old system and the proposed new one.

The only change I can see, is that if a player is traded and retires, or ends his career in some fashion, the cap hit will revert back to the original team that signed it. This could be a fairly substantial change, but not in the immediate sense of impacting teams upon transitioning to the new CBA like we're talking about.
Ok, let me try to explain it the way I understand it but I'm probably WAY wrong on this.

Currently:
Luongo signed to a 12 year - $64M contract ($5.33M Average Salary / Cap Hit)

Breakdown:
2010-11 $10,000,000
2011-12 $6,716,000
2012-13 $6,714,000
2013-14 $6,714,000
2014-15 $6,714,000
2015-16 $6,714,000
2016-17 $6,714,000
2017-18 $6,714,000
2018-19 $3,382,000
2019-20 $1,618,000
2020-21 $1,000,000
2021-22 $1,000,000


This is what he is being PAID in each year, regardless of his annual cap hit.

The Loop-Hole:
Let's say Luongo becomes a useless piece of **** after the 2017-18 season and the canucks decide to buy out his remaining 4 years with $7,000,000 left to be paid on his contract.

Luongo would be getting $4,662,000 over 8 years...(at 2/3 of the total balance remaining on his deal)

Cap Hit
2018-19 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2019-20 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2020-21 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2021-22 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2022-23 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2023-24 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2024-25 - $582,750 Cap Hit
2025-26 - $582,750 Cap Hit

Newly Proposed by NHL:
Luongo signed to a 12 year - $64M contract ($5.33M Average Salary / Cap Hit)

Breakdown:
2010-11 $10,000,000 - $5,333,000
2011-12 $6,716,000 - $5,333,000
2012-13 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2013-14 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2014-15 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2015-16 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2016-17 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2017-18 $6,714,000 - $5,333,000
2018-19 $3,382,000 - $5,333,000
2019-20 $1,618,000 - $5,333,000
2020-21 $1,000,000 - $5,333,000
2021-22 $1,000,000 - $5,333,000


The Loop-Hole:
Same example as above...Let's say Luongo becomes a useless piece of **** after the 2017-18 season and the canucks decide to buy out his remaining 4 years with $21,332,000 left to be paid on his contract.

Luongo would be getting $14,079,120 over 8 years...(at 2/3 of the total balance remaining on his deal)

Cap Hit
2018-19 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2019-20 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2020-21 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2021-22 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2022-23 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2023-24 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2024-25 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit
2025-26 - $1,759,890 Cap Hit

That's the way I always understood how buyouts worked and why teams were giving away years on the back end at a much lower number, to eventually buy-out these guys for a minimal cap hit. Like I said, I probably missed something along the way and I probably don't have it right.

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11-28-2012, 11:19 AM
  #377
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http://capgeek.com/player/1162

The cap hit fluctuates while the cost remains the same.

If bought out over the summer, Lou's breakdown.

Quote:
2012-13: $195,467
2013-14: $195,467
2014-15: $195,467
2015-16: $195,467
2016-17: $195,467
2017-18: $195,467
2018-19: $3,527,467
2019-20: $5,291,467
2020-21: $5,909,467
2021-22: $5,909,467
2022-23: $1,576,133
2023-24: $1,576,133
2024-25: $1,576,133
2025-26: $1,576,133
2026-27: $1,576,133
2027-28: $1,576,133
2028-29: $1,576,133
2029-30: $1,576,133
2030-31: $1,576,133
2031-32: $1,576,133
If in 2018 summer.

Quote:

2018-19: $2,534,667
2019-20: $4,298,667
2020-21: $4,916,667
2021-22: $4,916,667
2022-23: $583,333
2023-24: $583,333
2024-25: $583,333
2025-26: $583,333
Via capgeek:
Quote:
Roberto Luongo is 39 years old on the buyout date of June 15, 2018, setting the buyout ratio at 2/3 and the total buyout cost at $4,666,667 spread over 8 years. His contract was originally valued at $64,000,000 beginning in 2010 and ending in 2022, with $7,000,000 remaining from the buyout year forward. The following is a season-by-season breakdown of the buyout. A negative buyout cap hit indicates a credit.

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Old
11-28-2012, 11:33 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
http://capgeek.com/player/1162

The cap hit fluctuates while the cost remains the same.

If bought out over the summer, Lou's breakdown.



If in 2018 summer.



Via capgeek:
I guess I must have missed something in how it works when salaries fluctuates from year to year. Having said that, what is the point of having back-diving contracts then at all?

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11-28-2012, 11:52 AM
  #379
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Man, this just sucks.

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11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #380
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Man, this just sucks.
Geez....sorry, I'll try to make my posts more entertaining!

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11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #381
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I guess I must have missed something in how it works when salaries fluctuates from year to year. Having said that, what is the point of having back-diving contracts then at all?
I didn't realize we were factoring in buyouts. The point I thought we were talking about was whether the cap hits will be calculated the same, and whether Bettman was gonna do something that would screw over a team instantly. I don't see him doing that.

As for the back diving contracts, they're usually done because the team tacks on a year or two or five at the end of the deal for like a million a season, that has the player playing into his 40's. it's not really expected that he'll play that long so the lower salaries at the end of the deal drive down the cap hit, and the team won't be on the hook for it when he retires since the deal was signed before the player was 35.

Luingo is highly unlikely to play until hes 43 like his contract will pay him until. And in the event a player like Luongo is bought out toward the end, it will be for cheaper, and a smaller cap hit than if he was being paid $5.33M in each of the remaining years. It's possible a player could just keep playing despite being old and inefective, but if their role has drastically diminished with the team, and since their actually yearly salary is fairly low, there wouldnt be a whole lot of motivation to keep playing.

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11-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #382
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Geez....sorry, I'll try to make my posts more entertaining!

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11-28-2012, 03:47 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by 18007 View Post
Hehe...I know what you mean though, it's so BORING!!!!!!

I'm ALMOST bored to the point where I'll go 'bump' an old Stastny to Toronto trade proposal thread!!!

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11-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #384
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Hehe...I know what you mean though, it's so BORING!!!!!!

I'm ALMOST bored to the point where I'll go 'bump' an old Stastny to Toronto trade proposal thread!!!
I'll have to say, that is pretty bored.......

I just miss hockey, dammit!


Last edited by 18007: 11-28-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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11-28-2012, 04:46 PM
  #385
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I'll have to say, that is pretty bored.......

I just miss hockey, dammit.
This is my response now to every new lockout story which contains speculation or any non-news. I tried to follow it closely, I tried to keep updated, I even tried to watch other leagues more closely but this is just ridiculous. This is what I feel now about almost every press release or story which doesn't actually solve anything:


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11-28-2012, 10:33 PM
  #386
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This is my response now to every new lockout story which contains speculation or any non-news. I tried to follow it closely, I tried to keep updated, I even tried to watch other leagues more closely but this is just ridiculous. This is what I feel now about almost every press release or story which doesn't actually solve anything:

I know what you mean. Every story on every hockey main page is the same every time. They're about to meet, or they're not planning to meet, or there remains a significant gap, or Gary and Don aren't in this meeting.

Can we just fast forward to October 2013 when they actually feel some pressure to negotiate for once, rather than posture.

I have no faith in this mediator getting a guy like Gary Bettman or Don Fehr to budge from any position they want to take, It's all a face saving measure so they can pretend like they tried to save the season.

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11-29-2012, 07:24 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I know what you mean. Every story on every hockey main page is the same every time. They're about to meet, or they're not planning to meet, or there remains a significant gap, or Gary and Don aren't in this meeting.

Can we just fast forward to October 2013 when they actually feel some pressure to negotiate for once, rather than posture.

I have no faith in this mediator getting a guy like Gary Bettman or Don Fehr to budge from any position they want to take, It's all a face saving measure so they can pretend like they tried to save the season.
Yeah, that's most likely what this is, however, I still think that BOTH parties have dug in so far to the point that neither wants to look like the 'weak' one accepting the others deal.

So perhaps an unbiased 3rd party, hears both sides and slices down the middle and comes up with something decent.

I'll tell you one thing though, we keep hearing from both sides how they 'need a wiling partner' and 'it doesn't seem like they want to get a deal done'.

IF we were to hear after the mediation is completed that either the league or the players would be fine with what the mediator decided, that would put enormous pressure on the other side to also agree without looking like the party that is unwilling to make a deal.

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11-29-2012, 11:46 AM
  #388
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This is my response now to every new lockout story which contains speculation or any non-news. I tried to follow it closely, I tried to keep updated, I even tried to watch other leagues more closely but this is just ridiculous. This is what I feel now about almost every press release or story which doesn't actually solve anything:

Ha ha

I love that one.

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11-29-2012, 12:25 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I know what you mean. Every story on every hockey main page is the same every time. They're about to meet, or they're not planning to meet, or there remains a significant gap, or Gary and Don aren't in this meeting.
The best part about it is... this is the only thing that's happening, but people are still acting like the American media is victimizing them for not reporting on more than that.

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11-29-2012, 12:47 PM
  #390
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The best part about it is... this is the only thing that's happening, but people are still acting like the American media is victimizing them for not reporting on more than that.
Absolutely. There's literally nothing to report because everything is shut down, and the two sides only leak out the same talking points and representation of the other side. There's not even any rumors because GM's aren't allowed to talk. I can't not check hockey pages though, so I'm torturing myself by looking at the same BS every time.

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11-29-2012, 03:48 PM
  #391
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Yeah, that's most likely what this is, however, I still think that BOTH parties have dug in so far to the point that neither wants to look like the 'weak' one accepting the others deal.

So perhaps an unbiased 3rd party, hears both sides and slices down the middle and comes up with something decent.

I'll tell you one thing though, we keep hearing from both sides how they 'need a wiling partner' and 'it doesn't seem like they want to get a deal done'.

IF we were to hear after the mediation is completed that either the league or the players would be fine with what the mediator decided, that would put enormous pressure on the other side to also agree without looking like the party that is unwilling to make a deal.


It wouldnt surprise me to see Donald Fehr going with that angle, right after the mediation . Playing that card would probably really the rest of the fans, who are still with the owners , on the players side . In my POV that would be a great PR move from Fehr , and like you said , the pressure would be so huge on the NHL that it would almost make them KO .

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11-29-2012, 06:18 PM
  #392
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I was listening to TSN 1050 Toronto today and got to hear some actual hockey talk. They were discussing the Leafs and their failures today with Burke's 4th yr anniversary as their GM. Also talked about the Portland WHL scandal. And got to hear an awesome interview as usual with PK Subban, he had a pretty good story about how he was at the barber earlier today getting a cut and they were talking about bball then the Leafs (this was in Toronto) then the Habs and one of the guys in the parlour said "what do you think about that Subban kid" lol. He also said that he's not a good chirper but it's his "stupid grin" that pisses other players off.

And then I got this beauty in the mail along with a D Sedin, Eriksson, Esposito, and Bobby Hull card. Meant to get a Sakic 2011 Dominion too but forgot to bid. This is a really nice thick card about 0.30 CM thick so I love these ones, they feel like little pieces of wood instead of cardboard


Also I don't have this card but I found this hilarious picture somewhere with unfortunate lighting. He looks like a siamese cat

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11-29-2012, 11:11 PM
  #393
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I was listening to TSN 1050 Toronto today and got to hear some actual hockey talk. They were discussing the Leafs and their failures today with Burke's 4th yr anniversary as their GM. Also talked about the Portland WHL scandal. And got to hear an awesome interview as usual with PK Subban, he had a pretty good story about how he was at the barber earlier today getting a cut and they were talking about bball then the Leafs (this was in Toronto) then the Habs and one of the guys in the parlour said "what do you think about that Subban kid" lol. He also said that he's not a good chirper but it's his "stupid grin" that pisses other players off.

And then I got this beauty in the mail along with a D Sedin, Eriksson, Esposito, and Bobby Hull card. Meant to get a Sakic 2011 Dominion too but forgot to bid. This is a really nice thick card about 0.30 CM thick so I love these ones, they feel like little pieces of wood instead of cardboard


Also I don't have this card but I found this hilarious picture somewhere with unfortunate lighting. He looks like a siamese cat
Wow that is ridiculous. Someone really knows how to **** up skin tones in photoshop. How does that get approved for a hockey card? That would take about 30 seconds to fix if someone actually gave a ****.

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11-29-2012, 11:44 PM
  #394
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What do you know the mediators think the sides are too far apart.

Got to love Bettmans new "suggestion" that the leadership step aside so a group of owners can negotiate directly with a group of players. Yea, a bunch of billionaire business men negotiating a deal with a bunch of jocks. No one has the advantage in that one.

Quit **** around Bettman and concede something, rather than asking the players to give on every single issue. Offer them something so they can at least feel like they're saving face. Who the hell taught you to negotiate? Napoleon?


Last edited by Frenchy: 11-30-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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11-30-2012, 07:35 AM
  #395
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I've become really angry because of this CBA crap. I just want to completely forget about the NHL and never watch a game again. Unfortunetaly, I won't be able to do that because I love the Avs too much.
So, I just hope the NHLPA will agree to the suggested idea of a negotiation without the leaders. I think, both Fehr and Bettman are the big problems which are holding up the process, so a negotiation without them could work. However, I'm sure the NHLPA will decline.

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11-30-2012, 12:40 PM
  #396
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I thought this gem of a post summed up the mediation process quite nicely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Here's how I envision today's meetings:

Mediator arrives. "Okay gentlemen, let's be reasonable."

Both sides:

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12-01-2012, 11:54 AM
  #397
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Can you imagine how pissed NBC is that Bettman weaseled his way into lockout protection so the owners get paid even if they lose a season. NBC is paying $200M this year for absolutely nothing, and an extra year is getting tacked onto the deal at no charge.

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12-01-2012, 12:02 PM
  #398
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I don't know who to blame in this all.

Bettman - Going to wait out until the players can't pay their mortgages. The players will then (presumably) break and cave in to whatever the owners want. It will happen at some point down the line.

Players - Hired Fehr, who wasn't going to truly negotiate this thing anyways. Fehr's ego is going to make this last no matter what the players want.

Fehr and Bettman are just too egotistical to settle this thing. I'm already resigned to the fact the season is over.

Just curious to see how many fans actually go back. I think I am pretty much done with hockey for a while. I think when everything is said and done I'm going to be a DU Pioneers fan more than an NHL fan. Tickets are cheaper, DU is driven to actually try and compete, and there's never any work stoppages. 10x a better product than the Avalanche/NHL right now.

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12-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #399
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Can you imagine how pissed NBC is that Bettman weaseled his way into lockout protection so the owners get paid even if they lose a season. NBC is paying $200M this year for absolutely nothing, and an extra year is getting tacked onto the deal at no charge.
lol, players are being paid as well. You do know the whole point of this lockout is because majority of the teams in the NHL lost money last season.

Overall this thing has gotten quite ridiculous.

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12-01-2012, 01:09 PM
  #400
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lol, players are being paid as well. You do know the whole point of this lockout is because majority of the teams in the NHL lost money last season.

Overall this thing has gotten quite ridiculous.
You're joking right???? This is completely inaccurate on many levels.

The majority of teams DID NOT lose money last season. About five teams lost money last season, and they're the ones you expect to lose money. They're in poor markets, and/or run poorly. Not to mention one of them (Phoenix) is likely to move to a stronger market after the lockout. They want more revenue, and the richer teams don't want to give them any out of their share, so that leaves the players. That's the whole point of the lockout.

The NHL needs a 3/4 vote to overrule what Bettman wants to do. Only 8 owners are required to lockout players, or turn down a CBA proposal. This isn't 2004 where a good amount of teams are in trouble, it's actually doing great for the most part. Bettman wants to guarantee it's doing great for ALL the owners.

As for the players getting paid, you do realize that after the insurance costs, and low salary numbers outside the KHL, the players are basically either breaking even, or making peanuts right?

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