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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-30-2012, 10:45 AM
  #376
Halibut
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
However, the NHL is moving Heaven and Earth to avoid breaking that covenant.

It may not be smart money, but the League is sticking by a City that built the sort of building they wanted.

The lesson is clear. No building (NYI) or no owners who want it (Atlanta) and your team can be gone.

Edmonton is risking going 0'fer.
Sure they are staying there but at a hugely increased rate that the city has to pay for the opportunity which is exactly my point. If the Oilers are going to be making tons of money in the first few years in a new building we should be charging them through the nose because as soon as the economy does turn the other way they will be crying poor and be getting all the subsidies they can. It makes no sense to start out subsidizing them which is what Katz is asking for with the $6 million subsidy against operations costs and the demand that the city become the anchor tenant in his new office tower.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:01 PM
  #377
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Epcor did not build the tower, it was Qualico. Epcor has naming rights due to their massive lease space.

Katz agreed to a framework - which is AGREEING to the deal. It is 100% his fault. The city has bent over backwards to give him money, he wasn't putting a single dollar into the deal.

He can get bent.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:40 PM
  #378
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The NHL isn't viable for all but the biggest hockey markets. That is why a large percentage of NHL arenas are publicly financed and it is why there is currently a lockout.
True, I agree with this. But there's only like five to eight markets that are currently viable.

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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
The only cure for this is NFL style revenue sharing and the NHL has shown no signs that it is willing to go down that road.
Sorry this is where you and I disagree. I believe there are multiple methods of financial stability and frankly I don't believe the NFL revenue sharing will ever be possible. Mostly because the NFL revenue sharing is based upon the Billion plus television contract that it has. the NHL does not have this size of tv contract and there is no way that it would ever force the big three or four teams to give up their huge profits for the benefits of the other 25 teams.

the CFL for example is financial stable and it doesn't have the huge NFL tv contract nor its huge revenue sharing. And yes, a lot of it is based upon the players willingness to restrict their salaries like the CFL does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
The league will blow up this season (at tremendous cost) and ring concessions from the players in an effort to make the league viable for smaller markets. If history is a guide, within 2 years the big market teams will exploit loopholes in the CBA to drive up player costs again and at expiry of the agreement there will be another lockout (at tremendous cost).
Unless the league contracts to an eight team league, the league is going to continue to wring every concession out of the PA. History is not a guide because there isn't that much NHL history to draw upon. It wasn't until the mid 90s that players contracts exploded - that isn't that long ago, nor that many CBA's ago.

I believe that each CBA will be tweaked, loopholes will be closed and possibly unions broken (or teams folded) that will achieve some level of financial stability without requiring NFL style tv contract (which is never going to happen).


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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I love Edmonton but I do so knowing full well that we are a tiny city with a volatile economy. Worse than that, our NHL team's player costs are denominated in a foreign currency that has appreciated to such an extent in the past that the team was shelling out a $1.58 CAD for every $1 USD players were owed.

I didn't make the world; I just try and live in it. Unless a local billionaire is feeling particularly benevolent that means I have to give up a lunch at Subway ($5-$15) once a year to live in a city with an NHL team. That's just the way it's going to be. You can moan about it and curse Katz for being a greedy so and so after he sells the team and it leaves town, or you can accept it and buy one less foot long combo.
Fair enough. I'm not calling Katz greedy - I think he's an incredibly decent Edmonton citizen who has given millions to help charities and the city out. I also don't think the citizens of Edmonton will support throwing a blank cheque out for the Oilers. If that means the Oilers leave, so be it.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:48 AM
  #379
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does this now nearly inevitably lost season change anyone's views on how to finance any new arena? I'm starting to think the NHL is a sinking ship and we would be wise to build the arena wholly ourselves and give the Oilers/Katz Group a sweet lease deal. that way, if and when the NHL begins to die (and there is good reason to think it might), we are not locked in with an owner who controls the building, and we can get on board with any new pro leagues that spring up.

can anyone serious believe the NHL will still be relevant and worth it in 20 years? not me

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:31 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
does this now nearly inevitably lost season change anyone's views on how to finance any new arena? I'm starting to think the NHL is a sinking ship and we would be wise to build the arena wholly ourselves and give the Oilers/Katz Group a sweet lease deal. that way, if and when the NHL begins to die (and there is good reason to think it might), we are not locked in with an owner who controls the building, and we can get on board with any new pro leagues that spring up.

can anyone serious believe the NHL will still be relevant and worth it in 20 years? not me
There is too much demand for it to totally fail.

The worst case scenario is significant contraction. Sometimes I think that might also be the best case scenario.

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:01 PM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
does this now nearly inevitably lost season change anyone's views on how to finance any new arena? I'm starting to think the NHL is a sinking ship and we would be wise to build the arena wholly ourselves and give the Oilers/Katz Group a sweet lease deal. that way, if and when the NHL begins to die (and there is good reason to think it might), we are not locked in with an owner who controls the building, and we can get on board with any new pro leagues that spring up.

can anyone serious believe the NHL will still be relevant and worth it in 20 years? not me
The NHL isn't going anywhere, especially not in Canada. It might even become a mid sized league that has some sort of series with the KHL champs in 20 years down the road, you never know. But cities like Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago and NY are all going to want to watch hockey in the winter time. It's also becoming more popular in lesser markets because ice rinks are becoming cheaper to maintain these days then they used to be.

Not to mention I think as soon as Edmonton gets their new arena they will probably get an additional influx of new concerts, and probably a yearly UFC event

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Old
12-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #382
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Not to be "that guy" ... but somebody in my timeline retweeted the released design for the Seattle NBA/NHL building last night. I think it's one of the guys who posts here.

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Old
12-01-2012, 05:38 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
does this now nearly inevitably lost season change anyone's views on how to finance any new arena? I'm starting to think the NHL is a sinking ship and we would be wise to build the arena wholly ourselves and give the Oilers/Katz Group a sweet lease deal. that way, if and when the NHL begins to die (and there is good reason to think it might), we are not locked in with an owner who controls the building, and we can get on board with any new pro leagues that spring up.

can anyone serious believe the NHL will still be relevant and worth it in 20 years? not me
No it doesn't change my view as we need a new arena regardless if their is NHL hockey here or not.

NHL dies something else will grow. Either Junior hockey will become bigger or there will be some sort of CFL like version of hockey in Canada.

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:38 PM
  #384
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Illitch proposes the exact same thing for Detroit.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ntown-detroit/

650 million

Detroit succeeds and has a beautiful downtown district. Edmonton city council has their way and we receive Rexall2.0.

Yahoo.

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:55 PM
  #385
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Except it looks like Ilitch is actually putting forth some of his own money instead of looking for a way to recoup his investment. That man lives and breathes Detroit. I don't know what Daryl Katz represents anymore.


Last edited by Moonlapse Vertigo: 12-05-2012 at 04:03 PM.
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Old
12-05-2012, 04:16 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Illitch proposes the exact same thing for Detroit.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ntown-detroit/

650 million

Detroit succeeds and has a beautiful downtown district. Edmonton city council has their way and we receive Rexall2.0.

Yahoo.
I don't think City Council wants Rexall 2.0. Some have already said not to cut the costs as then that's what we are left with.

Gregor mentioned on his show something about Jan 15th. I expect we hear something then about the City funding the whole bill.

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Old
12-05-2012, 04:25 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Except it looks like Ilitch is actually putting forth some of his own money instead of looking for a way to recoup his investment. That man lives and breathes Detroit. I don't know what Daryl Katz represents anymore.
I don't know that article seems quite similar to what we were told here back when this all started. Heavy private funds via Katz and some public. Which turned out to be what it is today.

Need more info as that article doesn't really say how much Ilitch is actually putting towards the arena.

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12-05-2012, 07:02 PM
  #388
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I don't know that article seems quite similar to what we were told here back when this all started. Heavy private funds via Katz and some public. Which turned out to be what it is today.

Need more info as that article doesn't really say how much Ilitch is actually putting towards the arena.
Except Katz isn't even putting in "heavy private funds". Every penny is coming initially from the City. Even those sums which one could characterize as coming from him are actually coming via a loan the City is giving him, which is basically a zero sum game when you account for the bogus advertising the City will pay Katz, on top of the naming rights which the City doesn't get for a structure they own & have basically financed (which of course they don't get to tax). That is to say nothing of Katz's brand new "wants" such as the hi-rise he wants the City to commit to, the 6 mil a year & the Casino licence he wants gifted.
Call me crazy, but Im guessing Illitch has just a bit more integrity than Katz

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12-06-2012, 10:48 AM
  #389
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Except Katz isn't even putting in "heavy private funds". Every penny is coming initially from the City. Even those sums which one could characterize as coming from him are actually coming via a loan the City is giving him, which is basically a zero sum game when you account for the bogus advertising the City will pay Katz, on top of the naming rights which the City doesn't get for a structure they own & have basically financed (which of course they don't get to tax). That is to say nothing of Katz's brand new "wants" such as the hi-rise he wants the City to commit to, the 6 mil a year & the Casino licence he wants gifted.
Call me crazy, but Im guessing Illitch has just a bit more integrity than Katz
Initially Katz was putting up a lot of money. Yes now 3 years later he is giving nothing, but what Ilitch is saying isn't far off from what Katz told everyone at one point in time.

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12-06-2012, 11:17 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Illitch proposes the exact same thing for Detroit.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ntown-detroit/

650 million

Detroit succeeds and has a beautiful downtown district. Edmonton city council has their way and we receive Rexall2.0.

Yahoo.
I stopped reading with the bolded..

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Old
12-06-2012, 02:41 PM
  #391
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A general FYI. Mods are always looking for potential duplicate accounts. If a post has been allowed to stand, then that generally means there has been no reasonable evidence supporting that supposition.

Perhaps both posters are fans of Caddyshack.

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12-06-2012, 11:48 PM
  #392
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The NHL isn't going anywhere, especially not in Canada. It might even become a mid sized league that has some sort of series with the KHL champs in 20 years down the road, you never know. But cities like Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago and NY are all going to want to watch hockey in the winter time. It's also becoming more popular in lesser markets because ice rinks are becoming cheaper to maintain these days then they used to be.

Not to mention I think as soon as Edmonton gets their new arena they will probably get an additional influx of new concerts, and probably a yearly UFC event
Wake up. Demographics are changing. Hockey was never always the most popular sport, even in Canada. If this league crashes what makes you think Hockey will be given another shot? It shows the sport is not viable. More kids in Canada play soccer, hell hockey registration is slower the the rate of growth according to the last census.

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12-06-2012, 11:49 PM
  #393
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There is too much demand for it to totally fail.

The worst case scenario is significant contraction. Sometimes I think that might also be the best case scenario.
No there isn't. 8 markets is not enough and frankly thats all the NHL has.

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12-07-2012, 12:09 AM
  #394
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Its interesting that over the last 18years around 80% of cities build new arenas and with NHL hockey clubs as at least one of the prime tenants. With the NHL team being the primary tenant in many of these cities. Many of whom leveraged public funding of arenas to keep a pro team in town.

In the meantime theres been 3 serious work stoppages in that time.

NHL hockey not delivering with lights out. I wonder what the relative cost this has been to municipalities that were counting all those revitalizing golden eggs.

Looks like the hen is laying ****..

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12-07-2012, 12:28 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its interesting that over the last 18years around 80% of cities build new arenas and with NHL hockey clubs as at least one of the prime tenants. With the NHL team being the primary tenant in many of these cities. Many of whom leveraged public funding of arenas to keep a pro team in town.

In the meantime theres been 3 serious work stoppages in that time.

NHL hockey not delivering with lights out. I wonder what the relative cost this has been to municipalities that were counting all those revitalizing golden eggs.

Looks like the hen is laying ****..
Well replacement you are 100 percent right.There is no guarantee that the NHL will be around anyway now so why do fans want to waste taxpayer money on this?

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12-07-2012, 12:44 AM
  #396
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Well replacement you are 100 percent right.There is no guarantee that the NHL will be around anyway now so why do fans want to waste taxpayer money on this?
Yeah, its a question the arena backing crowd won't even touch. I wonder what that bastion of downtown revitalizing, Nationwide arena, is looking like now for Columbus. Or on a lesser scale MTS Center.

Every city with one major pro team in one arena should be wondering why they bothered.

These sexy new arena's have a VERY limited shelf life these days until they are considered antiquated and then its time once again for a municipality to buck up for a new shiny box. Never ending shellgame.

I would say its about 25yrs to obsolete now. The first 10 years of an arena is novelty time. Even after that limited time period interest and demand for sitting in the new palaces typically goes down.

The NHL, if this season is done, will have missed in the neighbourhood of an average 140 home dates/team counting playoffs and exhibition season in their respective venues. Thats in 18 years, so works out to over 8 prime tenant nights/yr missing over that time. Which given average industry nights/year utilization could easily be in excess of 15% of the total premium nights booked and much more of the total gate.

Banking on NHL nights has been a friggin disaster. Municipalities should start complaining.

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12-07-2012, 01:22 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Illitch proposes the exact same thing for Detroit.

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ntown-detroit/

650 million

Detroit succeeds and has a beautiful downtown district. Edmonton city council has their way and we receive Rexall2.0.

Yahoo.
Quote:
The Ilitch organization is now preparing to make another substantial investment in the development of a new residential, retail, office and entertainment district in downtown Detroit, adding to the more than $1.9 billion the Ilitch companies have already invested.
See the difference? That guy has put ALOT of money into downtown Detriot.

Our owner said he'd pay 100 million, then changed it to 5.5 over 35 years and then changed again saying he wants a 6million dollar subsidy.

These are not comparable at all.

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12-07-2012, 02:45 AM
  #398
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See the difference? That guy has put ALOT of money into downtown Detriot.

Our owner said he'd pay 100 million, then changed it to 5.5 over 35 years and then changed again saying he wants a 6million dollar subsidy.

These are not comparable at all.
The difference is, Detroit is getting an entertainment district and Edmonton is getting Rexall V2.0.


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12-07-2012, 08:49 AM
  #399
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Yeah, its a question the arena backing crowd won't even touch. I wonder what that bastion of downtown revitalizing, Nationwide arena, is looking like now for Columbus. Or on a lesser scale MTS Center.

Every city with one major pro team in one arena should be wondering why they bothered.

These sexy new arena's have a VERY limited shelf life these days until they are considered antiquated and then its time once again for a municipality to buck up for a new shiny box. Never ending shellgame.

I would say its about 25yrs to obsolete now. The first 10 years of an arena is novelty time. Even after that limited time period interest and demand for sitting in the new palaces typically goes down.

The NHL, if this season is done, will have missed in the neighbourhood of an average 140 home dates/team counting playoffs and exhibition season in their respective venues. Thats in 18 years, so works out to over 8 prime tenant nights/yr missing over that time. Which given average industry nights/year utilization could easily be in excess of 15% of the total premium nights booked and much more of the total gate.

Banking on NHL nights has been a friggin disaster. Municipalities should start complaining.
The NHL is a house of cards and the chickens are coming home to roost. If there was still 22 teams in the league games would be played right now. And the nerve to talk about expansion as well in 2016...

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12-07-2012, 09:33 AM
  #400
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Next Wednesday there will be an update at City Council.

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