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Old
11-29-2012, 05:49 PM
  #251
Zip15
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And the jockeying to dictate the narrative begins in response to the NHL's offer to have the owners and players meet without the lawyers in the room:

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Darren Dreger‏@DarrenDreger

Not all owners would be included in this owner-player meeting. Hasn't been determined. Not sure why either side wouldn't welcome this.
Quote:
Allan Walsh‏@walsha

Entire NHL strategy from start has been to divide players from Don Fehr. Now owners wants to meet players without Fehr or PA Staff.
Quote:
Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie

For its next trick, NHL proposes that players negotiate their own contracts without representation from agents.

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie

Gary must've just watched Seinfeld. Kramer without Jackie Chiles: "I'll take it!"
I love that episode of Seinfeld.

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11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
  #252
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If McCormick is to be taken at his word, it sounds like decertification may not be far off:

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Bill Hoppe‏@BillHoppeNHL

#Sabres Cody McCormick on decertifying: "I think it’s our next move. We’ve tried everything else. It’s something that almost has 2be done."

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11-30-2012, 01:49 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
And the jockeying to dictate the narrative begins in response to the NHL's offer to have the owners and players meet without the lawyers in the room:







I love that episode of Seinfeld.
I hope they do two things. First, make sure there are no potential weapons in the room. Second, do not let Jacobs attend. If he does, there is most likely no point in even having the meeting. That is, if the plan is to actually try and get any serious negotiations gong.

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11-30-2012, 02:11 PM
  #254
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Can't decide if this player/owner meeting would make any sense.

A smaller group of people would likely be more civil, but unlikely to sway their respective sides no matter what. A larger group would be just as unproductive as the last months of "negotiations".

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12-01-2012, 11:40 AM
  #255
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Sounds like the players see through the NHL's transparent attempt to get Fehr out of the mix:

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Bettman and NHLPA executive director Don Fehr would be gone, creating an odd dynamic in what surely would be a contentious atmosphere.

The union’s discussing the idea. But based on what several Sabres said Friday, it appears unlikely the meeting will ever happen.

“I’m not going to be there,” defenseman Jordan Leopold, the Sabres’ union representative, said after skating inside the Northtown Center. “I don’t want any part of it.”

He added: “I think it’s funny we have Don Fehr on our side. After two years, he seems to get under the owners’ skin. They want to remove one for one. I don’t know where this will lead us. It’s an interesting concept.”

Sabres winger Thomas Vanek said the potential meeting’s a PR sham.

“I don’t know what that would help,” Vanek said. “They have a guy in place in Gary. They pay him. We have a guy in place in Don. That should be good enough. I think just another PR stunt to show that they’re trying to do anything.

“But once it really comes down to (it), it’s just a lack of respect (for) our contracting rights and stuff. It’s beyond me that they’re even talking about that stuff.”
Vanek is also dead-on with the contract term issue IMO:

Quote:
Contentious contracting issues remain, however. Owners, for example, want to limit the length of contracts, an issue Vanek said the players are “never going to give up on ever.”

“It’s the right of every player before me and after me,” he said. “If a team wants to sign a guy for seven, eight, 10, 12 years like Minnesota did two guys (Zach Parise and Ryan Suter), good for them. No one’s telling them to do that. That should be a player’s choice, too. A player doesn’t have to sign it if he doesn’t want to. Both sides are willing to. Why stop it?”
The hypocrisy of it is that the long-term contract deals we've seen since the last lockout were very likely the ideas of the various owners to circumvent the cap and add incentive for getting a player to sign with them instead of another team. Sure, players like Vanek happily accepted the deals but it's hard to imagine the first few ones we saw be initiated by players. Once a few owners handed those out, players & agents probably became more bold in asking for them - but it's still a free choice to give them out like Vanek says.

http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sab...eeting-owners/

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12-01-2012, 01:33 PM
  #256
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You could also make the argument that every European player who comes to the NHL (when they actually play) is taking a job away from a North American player, but nobody seems to ever make that argument because it doesn't fit their narrative.

FWIW, some NHL players have publiclly stated they don't want to go Europe because of the reason you stated. It's not a flood, but it has been said.
Actually thats comparing apples and oranges.

Couple of points

1) The lockout means there are fewer jobs for pro hockey players. So for every NHLer that goes to play in a European league there is one less job for the players that were already playing in those leagues. Basically if a NHLer decides to play in another league they are taking away a job from someone that would have had one if the NHL was playing. There are no hockey jobs around the world eliminated when a European comes to the NHL to play. Its a ridiculous comparison.

2) Why are you making this about a players place of birth? There are many North Americans playing in European leagues. Some of the players losing their jobs to NHLers in those European leagues are North Americans that went over there to continue their pro hockey careers. Or in many cases went over there to have a pro hockey career.

A more accurate statement would be players in European leagues are losing their jobs to NHLers that have come over to ride out the lockout. No need to bring up their continent of origin. Its a global game with players from all over there hockey world playing in most of the top European leagues.

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12-01-2012, 01:55 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Can you disprove anything he wrote? Or did you just want to complain about something I posted, as usual?

I know you're a huge player advocate but give me a break using trying to discredit Forbes. Who I might add doesn't have a dog in this fight and is very well respected. Also the players themselves admit many franchises are struggling and have pushed for bigger revenue sharing because of it.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-02-2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: edited to remove my unfair attack on blog writer.
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12-01-2012, 01:57 PM
  #258
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It was poorly worded, but I didn't mean to imply place of birth had any meaning.

Still, my basic point holds true. Right now some NHL players are bumping players in European leagues. In other times, players who played in European leagues have bumped NHL players from rosters.

There are a fixed number of professional hockey jobs in the world. No matter the status of the NHL, that pool of fixed hockey jobs will generally be filled by the best players. That's just business. A player who wants to work isn't greedy.

Let me toss out a real world example. If you were not working, and offered a job, knowing that someone else would lose their job because you were being hired, would you take it, or turn it down? I'd take it, and I think these NHL players going overseas are in the same boat. They want to work, they want to support their families, and they'll take a job where they can get it.

I think just about any one of us would do the same thing.

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12-01-2012, 02:08 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I know you're a huge player advocate but give me a break using trying to discredit Forbes. Who I might add doesn't have a dog in this fight and is very well respected. Also the players themselves admit many franchises are struggling and have pushed for bigger revenue sharing because of it.
I'm not trying to discredit Forbes. Where are you guys coming up with that?

What's more obvious is that you're pro owners, so you instantly discount anything that might show them in a bad light. Other journalists (I'll go searching) have shown these Forbes numbers to NHL execs who have pointed out similar discrepancies. We know for a fact that NHL teams aren't opening their books to Forbes, so we know for a fact that those numbers are estimates. Is it wrong to point that out?

I found some parts of the article poised some interesting differences between published numbers, and Forbes numbers. If you think the guy is full of crap, ok. You're clearly entitled to that.

But don't tell me I'm trying to discredit Forbes. (Even though I think they lost all creditability years ago. They've posted for a long time how the Pittsburgh Pirates were bleeding money, but the audited financials got leaked a couple years back showing they were rolling in cash, and profiting off revenue sharing. )


Last edited by joshjull: 12-02-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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12-01-2012, 03:11 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The better question is can actually prove anything he wrote. Did you read any of the links he sites? Most are his own blog and the one writer he links from the Edmonton journal said this about Forbes.
Actually, I cite an NHLPA proposal in which the order of club revenues in 2003-04 is disclosed, various statements by Oiler executives as to where they sit revenue-wise, and a professor who reviewed the audited books of the Columbus Blue Jackets. In the second post I wrote about this, I cite a story based on revenues numbers that the Carolina Hurricanes file with the arena authority in Raleigh.

You might want to be careful tossing around claims of who isn't the brightest bulb or who's a hack. My work gets cited in a lot awfully respectable news corners.

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12-02-2012, 03:23 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
It was poorly worded, but I didn't mean to imply place of birth had any meaning.

Still, my basic point holds true. Right now some NHL players are bumping players in European leagues. In other times, players who played in European leagues have bumped NHL players from rosters.

There are a fixed number of professional hockey jobs in the world. No matter the status of the NHL, that pool of fixed hockey jobs will generally be filled by the best players. That's just business. A player who wants to work isn't greedy.
Exactly and when the NHL is not playing it means there are less professional hockey jobs. So NHLers crossing the pond creates a trickle down effect leading to players in European leagues losing their jobs when NHLers come over.

This is what we call a fact.


I never commented on the NHLers going over there in that post. So your implication/assertion that I think they are greedy is incorrect. Why I think they are going over is due to being bored and itching to play hockey. So they went where they could play at a high level.


Quote:
Let me toss out a real world example. If you were not working, and offered a job, knowing that someone else would lose their job because you were being hired, would you take it, or turn it down? I'd take it, and I think these NHL players going overseas are in the same boat. They want to work, they want to support their families, and they'll take a job where they can get it.

I think just about any one of us would do the same thing.
Another ridiculous situational comparison that has zero relevance to the NHLPA/NHL battle.

They want to support their families? Are you really this disconnected from reality?

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12-02-2012, 03:38 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I never commented on the NHLers going over there in that post. So your implication/assertion that I think they are greedy is incorrect. Why I think they are going over is due to being bored and itching to play hockey. So they went where they could play at a high level.
My initial comment which you've taken exception to was in response to another 'players are greedy' comment. That's what started this whole...whatever it is.

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12-02-2012, 03:49 PM
  #263
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One thing that NEVER gets mentioned is this:

Players here in the NHL complain to no end about their jobs and salaries. Yet they have never mentioned(to my knowledge) that when they go over to Europe, they're taking a job away from someone else. Can't say that I've ever heard a player say, "I'm worried about my job here. I'm not going to take away a job from some guy in Europe. I wouldn't be happy if that happened to me here."

This, to me, is an example of pure greed. It's all about THEM.
*cough cough* Bobby Ryan *cough cough*
Quote:
Back in September, Ryan told Eric Stephens of the Orange County Register that he will stay in California during the work stoppage and would not consider any other options even if the lockout were to drag on.

"I know you'll lose guys right way. That being said, I'm an NHL player. I'm not going to take somebody else's job overseas," Ryan told the paper.

The 25-year-old scorer reinforced his opinion during an October interview with New Jersey's Courier-Post.

"I'm going to handle things the way I think things should be handled,” Ryan told the Courier-Post. “I think it's important to stay here (in the United States) and be part of the solution and not just run from it."

According to Wednesday’s Aftonbladet article, Mora would need to cut one of the two North Americans already signed to the club, Tyler Gotto or Prestin Ryan, to make room for the NHL star.

Link: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...mora_overseas/

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12-02-2012, 03:51 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I'm not trying to discredit Forbes. Where are you guys coming up with that?
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
An interesting commentary on the Forbes numbers we all use so much. Maybe we shouldn't.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4784
How did I ever come to that conclusion.

Quote:
What's more obvious is that you're pro owners, so you instantly discount anything that might show them in a bad light.

How does that put the owners in a bad light? It puts Forbes in a bad light by accusing it of having estimates that are off. Btw it sites examples of Forbes being off by posting revenues that are too high as well as too low for teams. I guess you missed the part about too high estimates of revenue.

Want something more recent? I stumbled across a paper a few years ago written by a Professor Buser, who was given access to the audited books of the Columbus Blue Jackets – I wrote about it at the time. I’ve summarized his info, as well as that of Forbes, in the table at left. The takeaway is this: four of the six years, Forbes was 9.5% out or more and in every year, they overestimated Columbus’ revenue.

Quote:
Other journalists (I'll go searching) have shown these Forbes numbers to NHL execs who have pointed out similar discrepancies. We know for a fact that NHL teams aren't opening their books to Forbes, so we know for a fact that those numbers are estimates. Is it wrong to point that out?
Again how does this put NHL owners in a bad light? Answer, it doesn't.

Quote:
I found some parts of the article poised some interesting differences between published numbers, and Forbes numbers. If you think the guy is full of crap, ok. You're clearly entitled to that.
And being the pro player zealot that you are you jumped on the parts you thought helped your case. Yet ignored that the argument being made is Forbes is off on its numbers period. Not that it has a pro-owner tilt of lowballing revenues.

Late in the article the writer points to what he believes is the flaw with Forbes numbers

I suspect that Forbes has some sort of systemic bug in their model that causes them to underestimate Canadian team revenues and overestimate American team revenues. The problem seems to affect all of the Canadian teams, based on the various examples I’ve found. Their numbers roughly add up to the totals generated by the NHL, so it’s an allocation issue.


He also sites examples of the Oilers' revenues being underestimated while the Bluejackets revenues were being overestimated.


Quote:
But don't tell me I'm trying to discredit Forbes. (Even though I think they lost all creditability years ago. They've posted for a long time how the Pittsburgh Pirates were bleeding money, but the audited financials got leaked a couple years back showing they were rolling in cash, and profiting off revenue sharing. )
So with this last anti-Forbes rant along with your previous comments , you still want to argue you're not trying to discredit Forbes? Btw whether you are or not its not really of any assistance to your pro-player stance.

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12-02-2012, 03:55 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
My initial comment which you've taken exception to was in response to another 'players are greedy' comment. That's what started this whole...whatever it is.
I still take exception to it. Its a false equivalency.

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12-02-2012, 04:04 PM
  #266
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Actually, I cite an NHLPA proposal in which the order of club revenues in 2003-04 is disclosed, various statements by Oiler executives as to where they sit revenue-wise, and a professor who reviewed the audited books of the Columbus Blue Jackets. In the second post I wrote about this, I cite a story based on revenues numbers that the Carolina Hurricanes file with the arena authority in Raleigh.
I would like to see more of a breakdown by business writers of the LLCs that own these teams. In many cases the setup is similar to what we have in Buffalo where the Sabres are one division of the LLC and another division runs the arena. The LLCs make money but the divison that is the NHL team usually does not.

The problem is many sports writers when breaking things down interchange the team with the LLC that owns them. It creates a very muddled financial picture.


Quote:
You might want to be careful tossing around claims of who isn't the brightest bulb or who's a hack. My work gets cited in a lot awfully respectable news corners
That was uncalled for on my part and I apologize. I got caught up in the the debate with another poster and unfairly dragged you into it. In the process I inaccurately represented your blog and unfairly tore apart your blog posting.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-02-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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12-02-2012, 04:21 PM
  #267
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And the jockeying to dictate the narrative begins in response to the NHL's offer to have the owners and players meet without the lawyers in the room:







I love that episode of Seinfeld.
To add to that...

Henrik Lundqvist's tweets on the proposed meeting.

Quote:
If the plan is to have meetings between players and owners to solve this mess, maybe it's time to..
Quote:
..allow teams that actually are carrying the league finacially to get involved. So far I have not seen any invitations to the meeting room..
Quote:
without the big market teams NHL is in BIG trouble so explain to me why they are not invited? in these meetings??
Quote:
lastly, let's get some owners at the table with open minds that want to get this solved!! Good night from Gothenburg, Sweden.

Seems like some pretty reasonable ideas.

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12-02-2012, 04:28 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodhouse View Post
*cough cough* Bobby Ryan *cough cough*
Yay, ONE guy. Represents the whole league's players, right? Credit due to Ryan, yes. But how many NHL'ers are over there?

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12-02-2012, 05:15 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I would like to see more of a breakdown by business writers of the LLCs that own these teams. In many cases the setup is similar to what we have in Buffalo where the Sabres are one division of the LLC and another division runs the arena. The LLCs make money but the divison that is the NHL team usually does not.

The problem is many sports writers when breaking things down interchange the team with the LLC that owns them. It creates a very muddled financial picture.
Aren't the Panthers or Sharks the usual business examples?
Quote:
The Panthers organization has made $117.4 million in profits since the $185 million arena opened in 1998, according to the county.
The Panthers, for instance, are the main tenant of BB&T Center and without them SSE (Sunrise Sports & Entertainment) would void their lease and miss out on any AOC (Arena Operating Co.) profits as Broward County would then take over control (aka leasing it to the next party); similarly, the Sharks have the same type of agreement with their parent company and county with HP Pavilion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Yay, ONE guy. Represents the whole league's players, right? Credit due to Ryan, yes. But how many NHL'ers are over there?
I didn't think was necessary, but I included that quote block to illustrate an example of the NHLPA's hypocrisy. Showing a strong, unified front seems to mean little to the players as many make their way overseas the moment they feel the process is taking too long rather than get involved and/or pressure reps. I'm sure there's more than one guy who gave that cliched party line to the press about not wanting to take Euro jobs, but has now contradicted it. Ryan was just the latest.

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12-02-2012, 05:22 PM
  #270
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The six owners meeting with players in Tuesday's meeting are:
Quote:
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Per B. Daly: Burkle (PIT), Chipman (WPG), Edwards (CGY), Jacobs (BOS), Tanenbaum (TOR), and VINIK (TB) will be owners in Tuesday meeting.

Link: https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...63801149345792

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12-02-2012, 05:56 PM
  #271
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Nothing going to happen with Jacobs. Nothing to see, please disperse.

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12-02-2012, 09:47 PM
  #272
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My entire point of posting MC's Forbes article was simply for people to consider the possibility that Forbes' numbers might not be as accurate as we've all tended to think. It wasn't intended to be pro-player, anti-owner, whatever.

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12-03-2012, 08:36 AM
  #273
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Even with Jacobs in the room, I'm hoping for some new and creative thinking from the owners and players to settle this.

On my phone and haven't checked this thread or any sources. Any word on the players that may be involved?

I'm glad the NHL agreed to let counsel be involved. It's the only way this meeting could realistically take place. The players were rightfully concerned about that.

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12-03-2012, 08:43 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Woodhouse View Post
The six owners meeting with players in Tuesday's meeting are:
Still not letting in Dolan, who was widely credited for breaking the NBA stalemate, at least in part. Gary is a vindictive man. No Ed Snider, either.

With Jacobs in the room, I fear that some of the owners' rational points--both sides have them, believe it or not--may get lost in the disdain that many of the players have for the guy. Based on some reports in the Pittsburgh newspapers over the last week, it's Jacobs, not Bettman, that the players most take issue with.

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12-03-2012, 10:20 AM
  #275
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I have zero expectations for Tuesday's owner/player meeting. Esp. with Jacobs attending.

I suspect he will look the players in the eye and tell them to "make my day". And hence blow the whole thing up.

Decertification is next. The season's gone. And maybe the next one too. (And so are any pensions, etc........ I wonder what that means for past and retired players?)

I'm totally jaded at this point so I will muse that the real reason for this meeting must be that jersey sales are hurting and it is the Christmas season.

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