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Old
12-01-2012, 01:36 PM
  #101
tempest2i
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Which part is naive. That someone who invested almost 20 years to finally get tenure would not want to risk their career because they were afraid to fail an athlete? What would be the incentive to do this. Fear of an administrator? You do realise that if someone with tenure is dismissed for a violation like this they would never get another academic job.

Or am I being naive to believe that cheating is epidemic these days?

I have already said that I have no problem with believing that things like this have happened. But the suggestion was that handing in a blank exam and having the grade "taken care of" was the normal course of business across big US schools.

If you look at the top schools in the US in sports like football and basketball many of them are also very good academically. Duke, Notre Dame, UCLA, Michigan, Texas, ...these are all superb academic institutions. Permanent staff at these schools would be world class scholars. What is in it for them?
It sounded naive because in the end it's all about money. I would wager that highly skilled football players bring more money into big US schools than nearly all their tenured academics. Schools will pressure their academic staff to do whatever is necessary to keep their money making football players academically eligible to continue playing.

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12-01-2012, 01:39 PM
  #102
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Your right, hockey is a rich kids game...but that's for another thread. I work in Kingston ith some guys who went to school with Taylor Hall. They didn't say we was dumb, but didn't care about school because he was going to the NHL.

Dexter Manly was functionally illiterate when he "graduated" from the University of Miami...
Jeff Friesen was the same way. He's about 10 years older than me, but a friend of mine's uncle was his 8th grade teacher and there was an incident once that he told us about that was always kind of famous around town during Friesen's NHL days. One day Jeff handed in an essay that was basically complete garbage and the teacher called him out on it. Jeff's reply? "**** you, I'm going to be in the NHL so I don't need an education."

I'm sure that's not always the case though that they don't care, I also know Blake Comeau is a very, very intelligent young man as well as the King brothers.

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12-01-2012, 02:26 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Which part is naive. That someone who invested almost 20 years to finally get tenure would not want to risk their career because they were afraid to fail an athlete? What would be the incentive to do this. Fear of an administrator? You do realise that if someone with tenure is dismissed for a violation like this they would never get another academic job.
In order for someone to get tenure they have to be smart enough to know how the system works. And "the system", aka "the usa", puts it's economy light years ahead of human life. They'll throws thousands under the bus to grease the wheels of the economy. You think the US gov't cares if a few kids get bogus degrees if it means the difference of mega millions of dollars for their universities?

How much money do the Notre Dame *** Irish bring in every season? They probably dwarf the Maple Leafs.

Where does the money come from for ND to hire all the best and brightest Profs?

Do those profs care where their money comes from as much as they care about the football team of the uni where they are working, or their alma mater? Are they humans who understand that some of these kids have nothing outside of their shot at athletic glory?

Do they understand that those kids are actually performing a civic duty by earning money for the university? (If they could sanction boxing they'd be taking money out of Don King's pockets and using it towards higher education. Would that be so bad?)

Who is breathing down the necks of these professors when it's time to assign grades to students, the US Gov't or the Dean?

Who even really gives a rip if some kid who doesn't get a lick of money is rewarded with a shiny new scholarship for helping ND win some games? He's not going to use it to build space shuttles for nasa, he'll end up working in a car dealership smewhere even if you give him a phd.

There are a million good reasons to give those kids their fake degrees and the only reason to withhold them is for "the integrity of the system" lol.

Some people are cogs, more valuable people grease the wheels, some people complain about the integrity of system. If you could make the system work within the confines of "divine integrity" maybe someone else's system will work a little bit better and they'll build a bigger army (but with less integrity) and come kill you.

A lot of grajooits cant reed or rite good. All that materz iz they contribyoot to thu sistum, be they hed smashers or noorosurjinz.

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12-01-2012, 02:37 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
It sounded naive because in the end it's all about money. I would wager that highly skilled football players bring more money into big US schools than nearly all their tenured academics. Schools will pressure their academic staff to do whatever is necessary to keep their money making football players academically eligible to continue playing.
I am sorry but this is just not the way things work. That is why I said it is an urban myth. And no, it is not the case that football players would bring in more money than all the tenured academics.

The operating budget at Michigan is about $1.7B per year. In 2010-2011 their athletics programs together bring in about $105M or about 6% of the operating budget. Research grants would be far more than this number.

Football may be responsible for about $60-80M in revenue. But the net benefit to the University once salaries and other expenses are paid for their whole atheltic program was $5M.

Here is a question for all of you who think that profs at these schools are being pressured to give athletes grades.

1) How would this be done? In particular what threat could be used to force someone to do this.

2) A University will invest easily 5-10 millions of dollars in direct and indirect support for a faculty memeber over their career. What is the value of a free safety to the same school?

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12-01-2012, 02:47 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
In order for someone to get tenure they have to be smart enough to know how the system works. And "the system", aka "the usa", puts it's economy light years ahead of human life. They'll throws thousands under the bus to grease the wheels of the economy. You think the US gov't cares if a few kids get bogus degrees if it means the difference of mega millions of dollars for their universities?

How much money do the Notre Dame *** Irish bring in every season? They probably dwarf the Maple Leafs.

Where does the money come from for ND to hire all the best and brightest Profs?

Do those profs care where their money comes from as much as they care about the football team of the uni where they are working, or their alma mater? Are they humans who understand that some of these kids have nothing outside of their shot at athletic glory?

Do they understand that those kids are actually performing a civic duty by earning money for the university? (If they could sanction boxing they'd be taking money out of Don King's pockets and using it towards higher education. Would that be so bad?)

Who is breathing down the necks of these professors when it's time to assign grades to students, the US Gov't or the Dean?

Who even really gives a rip if some kid who doesn't get a lick of money is rewarded with a shiny new scholarship for helping ND win some games? He's not going to use it to build space shuttles for nasa, he'll end up working in a car dealership smewhere even if you give him a phd.

There are a million good reasons to give those kids their fake degrees and the only reason to withhold them is for "the integrity of the system" lol.

Some people are cogs, more valuable people grease the wheels, some people complain about the integrity of system. If you could make the system work within the confines of "divine integrity" maybe someone else's system will work a little bit better and they'll build a bigger army (but with less integrity) and come kill you.

A lot of grajooits cant reed or rite good. All that materz iz they contribyoot to thu sistum, be they hed smashers or noorosurjinz.
Sorry, but you don't get tenured at a top US school by playing nice. That is not the way it works. And if believe it does then all I can say is that you do not understand how higher education works.

Just out of curiosity, how many tenured faculty do you know at schools like Notre Dame or Michigan or UCLA or Duke...?

No one is arguing that shaddy things don't happen, nor that some postdoc teaching an intro to exercise physiology class might not takke it easy on a jock. I am not even saying that they do not get special treatment, because they do. Concessions will be made if they miss exams while away representing the school. Tutors will be provided for them. Lots of advantages go with being a high profile athlete. But this representation of some Dean threatening faculty to play nice or else is fanatasy stuff.

The economic benefits of a high profile athletic program are significantly exaggerated. Net proceeds from atheltics tends to be quite small in comparison with the operating budget of the schools even for the most high profile schools.

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12-01-2012, 02:52 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am sorry but this is just not the way things work. That is why I said it is an urban myth. And no, it is not the case that football players would bring in more money than all the tenured academics.

The operating budget at Michigan is about $1.7B per year. In 2010-2011 their athletics programs together bring in about $105M or about 6% of the operating budget. Research grants would be far more than this number.

Football may be responsible for about $60-80M in revenue. But the net benefit to the University once salaries and other expenses are paid for their whole atheltic program was $5M.

Here is a question for all of you who think that profs at these schools are being pressured to give athletes grades.

1) How would this be done? In particular what threat could be used to force someone to do this.

2) A University will invest easily 5-10 millions of dollars in direct and indirect support for a faculty memeber over their career. What is the value of a free safety to the same school?
Michigan gets 100,000 people at a football game, if the average person only spends $100 per game on tix, food, parking and drinks that's still $10,000,000 per game before advertising, merchandise and tv revenue.

But moving fwd let's just agree that it's only $105M from football and all their other sports. Do they want $105M w/ a few fake degrees thrown out there or are they ok with $36M and their sterling reputation?

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12-01-2012, 02:55 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Michigan gets 100,000 people at a football game, if the average person only spends $100 per game on tix, food, parking and drinks that's still $10,000,000 per game before advertising, merchandise and tv revenue.

But moving fwd let's just agree that it's only $105M from football and all their other sports. Do they want $105M w/ a few fake degrees thrown out there or are they ok with $36M and their sterling reputation?
Your post seems to be suggesting that my numbers are off.

Here you go:

http://www.regents.umich.edu/meeting...11-06-X-13.pdf

I asked tempest2i a couple of questions above. Care to take a shot at answering these.

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12-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
But this representation of some Dean threatening faculty to play nice or else is fanatasy stuff.
Can you name 1 high profile athlete, or even just a starter, that was denied the right to play because of their grades? That's the proper use of the word fantasy in this thread.

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12-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Can you name 1 high profile athlete, or even just a starter, that was denied the right to play because of their grades? That's the proper use of the word fantasy in this thread.
Here you go:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/college...85--ncaaf.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marquet...17--ncaab.html

http://www.slamonline.com/online/col...-12-13-season/

http://savannahnow.com/stories/05160...TBALLine.shtml

And look here for a longer list:

http://www.holyturf.com/2011/08/list...ed-to-qualify/

Would you like more or would you want to answer my questions before proceeding?

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12-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Can you name 1 high profile athlete, or even just a starter, that was denied the right to play because of their grades? That's the proper use of the word fantasy in this thread.
Here you go:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/college...85--ncaaf.html

And five more makes 9 from LSU:

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/po...d-out-for-2012

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/marquet...17--ncaab.html

http://www.slamonline.com/online/col...-12-13-season/

http://savannahnow.com/stories/05160...TBALLine.shtml

And look here for a longer list:

http://www.holyturf.com/2011/08/list...ed-to-qualify/

Would you like more or would you want to answer my quetions before proceeding?

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports...le-for-season/

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/re...-western-state

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ned-ineligible

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2026,4971739

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/20...ly-ineligible/

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12-01-2012, 03:22 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say! View Post
Tahaj Jones and a whole host of others. Ya got me.
It took me about 12 seconds to find this. Do you want me to give you the names of every student athlete ruled academically ineligible over the last decade?

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12-01-2012, 03:31 PM
  #112
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It took me about 12 seconds to find this. Do you want me to give you the names of every student athlete ruled academically ineligible over the last decade?
They were ruled "unable to athletically overcome their academic shortcomings".

If their signature is an x and they can run, jump or throw well enough they pass.

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12-01-2012, 03:34 PM
  #113
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Again, what are the questions you're talking about? I gave 10 reasons why profs would pass these kids...

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12-01-2012, 03:34 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Here is a question for all of you who think that profs at these schools are being pressured to give athletes grades.

1) How would this be done? In particular what threat could be used to force someone to do this.

2) A University will invest easily 5-10 millions of dollars in direct and indirect support for a faculty memeber over their career. What is the value of a free safety to the same school?
1) Grades would be manipulated after the prof has handed in their grades and before they are officially posted.

2) I would have stayed in academia if they would have invested 5-10 million dollars into my research. Instead I would have been fighting for federal grants and investment dollars from industry. I don't remember the University really doing anything more than paying my salary while I worked there. Any money that we got to do actual research came from outside sources. I have no idea how valuable any given athlete is, but I suspect Bama's QB is very valuable to the school.

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12-01-2012, 03:42 PM
  #115
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Again, what are the questions you're talking about? I gave 10 reasons why profs would pass these kids...
And for the most part none of them happen in real life as you describe.

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12-01-2012, 03:44 PM
  #116
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1) Grades would be manipulated after the prof has handed in their grades and before they are officially posted.

2) I would have stayed in academia if they would have invested 5-10 million dollars into my research. Instead I would have been fighting for federal grants and investment dollars from industry. I don't remember the University really doing anything more than paying my salary while I worked there. Any money that we got to do actual research came from outside sources. I have no idea how valuable any given athlete is, but I suspect Bama's QB is very valuable to the school.
You serious believe that there would be wide scale changes to submitted grades without the profs consent. That is fraud! It would not only see the perp dismissed but he or she would be looking at a possible jail term. Most of these are public institutions.

When you worked at a University who paid your salary and benefits, provided you with an office, with adminisrative support. How were your grad students funded. What about indirect costs of your research? If you wer funded by the Tri-Councils then your grant was actually the property of the University. You had signing authority but if you left they kept it. These are investments in faculty.


Last edited by Fourier: 12-01-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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12-01-2012, 03:44 PM
  #117
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And for the most part none of them happen in real life as you describe.
Ah, but we can logically believe that this happens, and when fueled with some cynicism, isn't that all that really matters?

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12-01-2012, 03:52 PM
  #118
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Ah, but we can logically believe that this happens, and when fueled with some cynicism, isn't that all that really matters?
And hence why it lives as an urban myth.

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12-01-2012, 03:54 PM
  #119
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You serious believe that there would be wide scale changes to submitted grades without the profs consent. That is fraud! It would not only see the perp dismissed but he or she would be looking at a jail tem. Many of these are public institutions.
I know it already happens. I've seen it, in person.

Prof teaches a difficult subject, pulls together all the grades and submits these. Faculty reviews the grades that have been submitted and realizes that not enough students have passed, the faculty wants to keep their numbers up. Final grades are posted, more students passed than the prof originally had passing the course.

No one is going to jail over this stuff.

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12-01-2012, 03:56 PM
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You serious believe that there would be wide scale changes to submitted grades without the profs consent. That is fraud! It would not only see the perp dismissed but he or she would be looking at a jail tem. Many of these are public institutions.
When I was a graduate TA at an American (public) university, two top basketball players failed every exam and most of the quizzes in a biology class I taught. I tried to fail them for that semester, but someone from the athletic department intervened, and I was required by the professor in charge to change the grades to whatever they needed to remain eligible to play basketball during the next semester. It seemed to be common practice. I wasn't the only grad student in my class forced to raise grades for athletes.

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12-01-2012, 04:06 PM
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I know it already happens. I've seen it, in person.

Prof teaches a difficult subject, pulls together all the grades and submits these. Faculty reviews the grades that have been submitted and realizes that not enough students have passed, the faculty wants to keep their numbers up. Final grades are posted, more students passed than the prof originally had passing the course.

No one is going to jail over this stuff.

Wait. Are you actually comparing grading on a bell curve with athletes getting their marks artificially boosted simply because they are an athlete?

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12-01-2012, 04:11 PM
  #122
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When you worked at a University who paid your salary and benefits, provided you with an office, with adminisrative support. How were your grad students funded. What about indirect costs of your research? If you wer funded by the Tri-Councils then your grant was actually the property of the University. You had signing authority but if you left they kept it. These are investments in faculty.
Technically my salary was paid by a research grant provided by CAPP. I would not have had a job if we didn't have that grant. My university benefits were laughable at best. My office was shared with all the grade students while classes were in session, but during the summer I moved into an unused lab/classroom to work out of, it was pretty ghetto. Any money the university paid for administrative support was completely wasted because they were beyond useless.

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12-01-2012, 04:13 PM
  #123
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You serious believe that there would be wide scale changes to submitted grades without the profs consent. That is fraud! It would not only see the perp dismissed but he or she would be looking at a possible jail term. Most of these are public institutions.

When you worked at a University who paid your salary and benefits, provided you with an office, with adminisrative support. How were your grad students funded. What about indirect costs of your research? If you wer funded by the Tri-Councils then your grant was actually the property of the University. You had signing authority but if you left they kept it. These are investments in faculty.
Noone has to change any grades, it's easy enough for the uni to just appoint the right "tutors". If the tutors are good enough at "guessing" what questions are on the test it's exactly the same thing as giving them a copy of the test and it's impossible to prove fraud or malfeasance.

I'll leave you with this: an athletes chance of being found inelgible for academic reasons varies inversely with their ability to contribute to their team. If you can get 10 sacks in a season or protect a star qb you can probably get through with a grade 7 level of academic ability.

If some mediocre starting linebacker gets cocky and pisses off the faculty then sure, there's a good chance that they'll ring him up.

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12-01-2012, 04:13 PM
  #124
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Wait. Are you actually comparing grading on a bell curve with athletes getting their marks artificially boosted simply because they are an athlete?
Students are being graded in some administrative black box. That's what I'm saying here.

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12-01-2012, 04:20 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
I know it already happens. I've seen it, in person.

Prof teaches a difficult subject, pulls together all the grades and submits these. Faculty reviews the grades that have been submitted and realizes that not enough students have passed, the faculty wants to keep their numbers up. Final grades are posted, more students passed than the prof originally had passing the course.

No one is going to jail over this stuff.
What you are now describing is a completely different story. And the prof would have been made aware of this.

Every university has its procedures for grade approval. Professors in most schools can have their grades changed if they are deemed to be inappropriate. typically though this is very rare. I've actually had to testify at a formal arbitration hearing on exactly this matter during my last term as a department Chair. As a bonus I got to spend a fair bit of time with a bunch of lawyers who I can assure you took this all very seriously.

That said I am not going to argue with anyone that grade inflation does not exist, or that there are never inappropriate things that happen. But your previous post suggested that grades for individual student atheltes would be changed without the profs knowledge for the purposes of keeping them in school. That is fraud. On a wide scale people would go to jail.

I think we have taken this way off line. It would seem that I am not going to convince anyone who thinks that all of this is routine and a I am not going to be convinced that it does. So perhaps we should let it die.

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