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Referendum starts process (against) Glendale arena deal with Jamison

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Old
12-01-2012, 02:16 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I have yet to see an overwhelmingly negative aspect of keeping the Coyotes right in Phoenix,
The interesting thing is that after the Thrashers were moved from Atlanta to Winnipeg, not one player said this was a bad thing. Why? Because the move resulted in the HRR for the league going up, which relates to the players getting more money.

You will never get the NHLPA to publically comment about how a team should be moved, but IMO, they would not be against moving the Coyotes to say Southern Ontario.

So from an HRR respect, keeping the Coyotes where they are has a negative affect on salaries.

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12-01-2012, 02:17 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I disagree. With the City Council approving the Coyotes lease and the incoming Mayor indicating he won't fight that lease, we have a light at the end of the tunnel.

The referendum leaders, need an awful lot of signatures in a short amount of time.

Which lucky fanbase, will be the focus of the relocation happy crowd, once Jamison completes his purchase of the Coyotes?
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'd guess that Jamison is thinking a much stronger lease from the city + revenue sharing + increased tix sales/attendance from a strong on ice product, will be where he makes his money.
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Old
12-01-2012, 02:27 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
People have been saying the Canadian dollar will crash for 7 years.. hasn't happened yet... won't happen in the next 4 years..

You want a good reason to move the Coyotes? How about loses of 25 million dollars+ every year.

Simple.
O.K...Yes I would prefer the Coyotes to move to a Canadian market..Fine. Thats just personal preference. However to be honest I would be happy if they moved t Portland, back to Hartford, and IMO the best untapped hockey market in the U.S...Milwaukee. Wisconsin is a huge hockey market. Just not sure if they would support the NHL. As Awsome as a hockey market Minnesota is (and how much they support wild is great) The North Stars were way below the Gophers in popularity, perhaps even less popular than High School Hockey. Not sure if the same would happen In Wisconsin.
Back to my point though...get the Frack out of Arizona!

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12-01-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'd guess that Jamison is thinking a much stronger lease from the city + revenue sharing + increased tix sales/attendance from a strong on ice product, will be where he makes his money.
Reportedly they lost $24.4M in 2011/2012 (according to National Post) with a very good team. How much can revenue sharing/Lease agreement change? If it's less than $25M it won't change anything unless they can somehow rally some fans to fill the seats.

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Old
12-01-2012, 03:52 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Another thing Gary Bettman & his goons have to realize the NHL. has growen hockey in the USA. as far as it can go & its time to focus on cutting the fat in which I mean moving some of the weaker teams that are beyond economicall repair to stronger markets like Hamilton , Quebec City & Seattle which could mean a brighter future for the NHL. if they can get this lockout business sorted out .
That is a very powerful assertion. You are saying that hockey, as a sport, has reached its ceiling of growth in the United States. Is there any proof to that assertion?

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Old
12-01-2012, 03:53 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Reportedly they lost $24.4M in 2011/2012 (according to National Post) with a very good team. How much can revenue sharing/Lease agreement change? If it's less than $25M it won't change anything unless they can somehow rally some fans to fill the seats.

The NY press says the NJ Devils made $26m with their playoff tix sales, during their 2011-2012 playoff run. That shows how a strong postseason can boost a team's revenue.

Phoenix was last in the nhl in attendance, during the regular season in 2011-2012.
Their strong playoff run should have been used to help build attendance. They have a young, talented team and a very good gm. There is no reason to think with the ownership issue settled and a young playoff team, that Phoenix can't build their base, increase their regular season tix sales.

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12-01-2012, 03:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I have yet to see an overwhelmingly negative aspect of keeping the Coyotes right in Phoenix, and I'm not keen, if they do move, to move them to a market that has already failed once.
Like Minnesota?

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12-01-2012, 04:13 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Like Minnesota?

And Denver.

A so called "failed market", is a little to easy of an argument. Things change in a market, demographic changes, ecoonomic changes.

Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, Minnesota, all were once "Failed markets". Things have changed drastically (at least in Winnipeg and Quebec) economically. The resession didnt not have nearly the impact here as in other regions. There is and always will be a hardcore base of hockey fans in Winnipeg, Quebec, and Minnesota, and I would guess that if the NHL ever came back to Hartford it would do well.

The reason the NHL left Winnipeg are numerous, Dollar, crappy ownership, crappy arena.
I remember 1996 vividly the times were bleak in Manitoba, I graduated in 1993 and only 4 of us remained in Manitoba by 1996, the rest had moved to Alberta. in 2012 3/4 of those who moved are now back.

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12-01-2012, 04:18 PM
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...7580--nhl.html

Mike Sunnucks, told Marek and Wyshynski the other day that if the decision to fund the Coyotes with that much money for that long a period was put to a public vote, it would have an incredibly hard time passing. Which is why opponents of the decision, including many incoming city councilors, want to get it to just such a public referendum.

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12-01-2012, 04:38 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
The NY press says the NJ Devils made $26m with their playoff tix sales, during their 2011-2012 playoff run. That shows how a strong postseason can boost a team's revenue.
The problem is only 2 teams can make that far a playoff run in any given year. What happens when they're out the first round or don't even make the playoffs? Teams must be able to make a profit from regular season alone - or they're going to be unprofitable for many years.

Quote:
Phoenix was last in the nhl in attendance, during the regular season in 2011-2012.
Their strong playoff run should have been used to help build attendance. They have a young, talented team and a very good gm. There is no reason to think with the ownership issue settled and a young playoff team, that Phoenix can't build their base, increase their regular season tix sales.
We've already seen that they can't make it work in Phoenix. All the evidence has pointed to this even when they had a good team. If there was a good chance this team would be profitable then there'd be investors lined up to buy the team and keep them in Glendale. Yet, we're here 3 years later and it's taking a massive subsidy for them to stay put. To think the Coyotes will be profitable when half the teams who have much better circumstances aren't is delusional.

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12-01-2012, 05:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
The problem is only 2 teams can make that far a playoff run in any given year. What happens when they're out the first round or don't even make the playoffs? Teams must be able to make a profit from regular season alone - or they're going to be unprofitable for many years.



We've already seen that they can't make it work in Phoenix. All the evidence has pointed to this even when they had a good team. If there was a good chance this team would be profitable then there'd be investors lined up to buy the team and keep them in Glendale. Yet, we're here 3 years later and it's taking a massive subsidy for them to stay put. To think the Coyotes will be profitable when half the teams who have much better circumstances aren't is delusional.
I'm not saying the Coyotes need to go on a deep playoff run each season.

I'm saying they were last in attendance in 2011-2012. They've got a young, talented playoff team. There is no reason that they can't significantly increase their regular season attendance.

Add in playoff revenue to the increased season tix sales+ stronger lease + revenue sharing and I disagree that they can't make a profit for Jamison.

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12-01-2012, 05:43 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'm not saying the Coyotes need to go on a deep playoff run each season.

I'm saying they were last in attendance in 2011-2012. They've got a young, talented playoff team. There is no reason that they can't significantly increase their regular season attendance.

Add in playoff revenue to the increased season tix sales+ stronger lease + revenue sharing and I disagree that they can't make a profit for Jamison.
They were playing so far above their ability last year, trying to save the team and all. Now if this deal goes through and the teams future is secured, we'll see how they play under normal circumstances. Not very well is my guess.

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12-01-2012, 06:13 PM
  #38
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1. Why is "against" in brackets?
2. NJ may have sold 27M of tickets, but they don't get all that money.
3. Phoenix has enough failure to justify 2 relocations, so I wouldn't write off QC as a market.
4.The Coyotes were the 5th oldest team last year and have been a good team for years.


Last edited by epo: 12-01-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old
12-01-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
And the current relative strength of the Canadian dollar and the current relative weakness of the US Dollar will hold forever?
It's only relative strength/relative weakness if you look back over 15 years. The 1.55 exchange rate was a historical high in the post Bretton Woods era. Indeed, the Bank of Canada has been pursuing a weak Canadian dollar for five years now in order to help protect the export sector.

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12-01-2012, 06:43 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
They were playing so far above their ability last year, trying to save the team and all. Now if this deal goes through and the teams future is secured, we'll see how they play under normal circumstances. Not very well is my guess.
Not so sure about that S&S. Tippett had them playing the old Left Wing Lock system pretty proficiently. Makes for boring hockey, but is just about the only defence/strategy one has when facing opponents with a lot more speed & firepower. Tons of players capable of playing it that way currently in the AHL & NHL of course. Signed relatively cheaply. Throw in a few agitator types who have worn out their welcomes elsewhere. Backed by excellent goaltending which theyve had formerly with Bryz & now with Smith. Bobs yer Uncle.

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12-01-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
This has a number of factual errors in it. I also noticed you left something out of this quote

Quote:
Mike Sunnucks, who has absolutely killed it for the Phoenix Business Journal in covering this entire mystifying debacle, told Marek and Wyshynski the other day that if the decision to fund the Coyotes with that much money for that long a period was put to a public vote, it would have an incredibly hard time passing. Which is why opponents of the decision, including many incoming city councilors, want to get it to just such a public referendum.
"killed it"

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12-01-2012, 07:31 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
They were playing so far above their ability last year, trying to save the team and all. Now if this deal goes through and the teams future is secured, we'll see how they play under normal circumstances. Not very well is my guess.
2008-2009 was the last season they missed the playoffs.
Let's not belittle their franchise success


I expect more contributions from top youngsters like OEL,Gormley and Rundblad.
Their goal scoring takes a hit exchanging Whitney for Sullivan in their top 6, but depth on defense will allow them to trade for scoring. I think it's easier to land scoring then quality defensemen.

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12-01-2012, 07:42 PM
  #43
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It's one thing to lose that much money with a cellar dweller - Chicago and Pittsburgh have proven that bad on-ice product doesn't sell even in GOOD NHL markets. It's quite another to lose that much with a GOOD team like Phoenix is and has been.

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12-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
That is a very powerful assertion. You are saying that hockey, as a sport, has reached its ceiling of growth in the United States. Is there any proof to that assertion?
Just take a look at places like Phoenix , Florida , Columbus , Atlanta , Nashville , Dallas , Carolina where the NHL. is trying to grow the game with terrible results with only Dallas & Carolina being successful & as for the rest will the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg , The Coyotes are on the verge of relocation , Nashville stable but fragile but if this season is lost do to the lockout they could easly be back in the same spot they where back in 2006 , Florida is on life support unless they start winning soon or
they could be on the move & as for Columbus they will be gone within the next 5 years because no one there cares about the blue jackets in columbus they only care about the Ohio State Buckeyes .

Lets be honest there is not much left for the NHL. to grow the game in the USA. just take a look .

Seattle - Bulid that new arena & the NHL. will come & Seattle would be a huge success
Houston - Could be a Good Hockey market but not intrested in the NHL. right now
Portland - The same as Houston a good hockey market but not intrested right now
Las Vegas - Pretty much the same type of market as Phoenix it simply won't work
Kansas City - 60\40 chance the NHL could work there but they will have to beat the NBA. there because the NBA. is planning to expand after next season & Kansas City is one the front runners to land an NBA. team & KC. right in the middle of basketball country.

Hamilton , Quebec City & Seattle will get NHL. team within 7 years.

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12-01-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Just take a look at places like Phoenix , Florida , Columbus , Atlanta , Nashville , Dallas , Carolina where the NHL. is trying to grow the game with terrible results with only Dallas & Carolina being successful & as for the rest will the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg , The Coyotes are on the verge of relocation , Nashville stable but fragile but if this season is lost do to the lockout they could easly be back in the same spot they where back in 2006 , Florida is on life support unless they start winning soon or
they could be on the move & as for Columbus they will be gone within the next 5 years because no one there cares about the blue jackets in columbus they only care about the Ohio State Buckeyes .

Lets be honest there is not much left for the NHL. to grow the game in the USA. just take a look .

Seattle - Bulid that new arena & the NHL. will come & Seattle would be a huge success
Houston - Could be a Good Hockey market but not intrested in the NHL. right now
Portland - The same as Houston a good hockey market but not intrested right now
Las Vegas - Pretty much the same type of market as Phoenix it simply won't work
Kansas City - 60\40 chance the NHL could work there but they will have to beat the NBA. there because the NBA. is planning to expand after next season & Kansas City is one the front runners to land an NBA. team & KC. right in the middle of basketball country.

Hamilton , Quebec City & Seattle will get NHL. team within 7 years.
People will argue Nashville is a good market because they have good attendance, but they cant charge enough for those tickets to be competitive. They need to rely on the combination of a playoff run while having a low payroll and also receiving support from the league and I believe local just to break even!

The solution cannot be ''give all the Leafs money to teams like Nashville'' Bettman could have really helped markets that you mentioned but FAILED to get a tv deal that can actually help them.

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12-01-2012, 09:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'm not saying the Coyotes need to go on a deep playoff run each season.

I'm saying they were last in attendance in 2011-2012. They've got a young, talented playoff team. There is no reason that they can't significantly increase their regular season attendance.

Add in playoff revenue to the increased season tix sales+ stronger lease + revenue sharing and I disagree that they can't make a profit for Jamison.
Jamison would not only have to increase by 25% tickets sales but also tickets prices by 50% and play 6 playoff home games every year to make a profit. If the team misses the playoffs for three straight years, it's back to bankruptcy court. If Jamison can pull this off, he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

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12-01-2012, 10:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I have yet to see an overwhelmingly negative aspect of keeping the Coyotes right in Phoenix, and I'm not keen, if they do move, to move them to a market that has already failed once.
Nice to see you finally show your true colors.


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12-01-2012, 10:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'm not saying the Coyotes need to go on a deep playoff run each season.

I'm saying they were last in attendance in 2011-2012. They've got a young, talented playoff team. There is no reason that they can't significantly increase their regular season attendance.
.
The team I saw in the playoffs were a bunch of veterans, rejects that could not make it in other teams. And it was miracle that the coach somehow made it work.

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Old
12-01-2012, 11:31 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Reportedly they lost $24.4M in 2011/2012 (according to National Post) with a very good team. How much can revenue sharing/Lease agreement change? If it's less than $25M it won't change anything unless they can somehow rally some fans to fill the seats.
the lease will give them 15 mill per season...cuts losses to 10 mill. The new cba will include a lower cap and increased revenue sharing... they are looking at possibly 10 mill in savings so that would make them a break even team. Combine this with proper ownership and marketing, and an improving economy there is the potential for the coyotes to be long term break even/small profit team. Its just sad that the team would require so much welfare from taxpayers and fans from places like vancouver who have to pay $100+ for their tickets in order to survive.

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12-01-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GordonGraham View Post
Just the fact that they are starting the process

Does this mean that Jamison cant buy the team in the next 30 days( now maybe 27-28)
The ordinance authorizing the signing of the lease cannot go into effect until 30-days (Dec 27th) after the council vote. After that point Jamison has a window up through January 15th to complete purchase the team and sign the AMF agreement with Glendale.

My guess is Jamison is currently moving forward with the purchase of the team now. With a target date of Dec 27th (the day the window opens) to complete the sale. The referendum signature drive is not going to delay that unless it becomes apparent Ken Jones and his merry band of Tea Party Patriots can get the required number of signatures.


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