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12-01-2012, 08:00 PM
  #126
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Thing is, the best Maple Leafs teams with Sundin as the driving force had been slowly in development for 7+ seasons. You could put Kessel and Sundin in a nutshell and look at everything else and see a massive difference in potential.

I disagree with that. As great as Sundin was I really don't think he was the primary reason we were successful, our best years between 98'-04' we had elite goalies backing us which IMO was a big part in why we got as far as we did. Of course those leaf teams were a healthy mix of speed/size/skill/defensive prowness, actually the pre 2004 leafs remind me a lot of the Boston Bruins of this decade.

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12-01-2012, 08:01 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Funny thing is the Supporters are the ones who appear to be observing and taking notes.
Ok heres a big question I think you need to consider, if Burke is that good of a GM then why are we still a lottery team? I don't want to hear excuse just actual reasons for why we are still one with him at the helm.

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12-01-2012, 08:03 PM
  #128
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Ok heres a big question I think you need to consider, if Burke is that good of a GM then why are we still a lottery team? I don't want to hear excuse just actual reasons for why we are still one with him at the helm.
Same response as I was going to post to your reply to me... time.

He's only been here for 4 years. I don't mean to come off as rude or arrogant but show me a GM that has built a competitive NHL team in four years or less?

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12-01-2012, 08:07 PM
  #129
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Same response as I was going to post to your reply to me... time.

He's only been here for 4 years. I don't mean to come off as rude or arrogant but show me a GM that has built a competitive NHL team in four years or less?
It doesnt matter that he's been here 4 years, fact is his job is to make this team better, 4 years later we are worse off standings wise then when he first arrived. I'm not saying this team has to win the cup or be a contender but some improvments needed to be shown, heck even if we got to the playoffs and got bounced in 4 games that would be improvement.

I'm not a Burke supporter and I also don't hate the guy, I'm just a realist when it comes to him.

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12-01-2012, 08:11 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The problem is that leaf fans simply dramatically over value their prospects.

Go ahead and look at old threads about our prospects from four years ago. (The threads have been re-posted here many times) The majority of leaf fans are talking about how fantastic our prospects are compared to the previous GM's tenures.
Of course, the prospect ranking sites (correctly) thought our prospects were pretty mediocre.

And now the exact same thing is happening. Nothing has changed. Leaf fans (and only leaf fans) think we have elite prospects. Other fan bases and prospect ranking sites still think they're utterly mediocre.

If you say "Yeah, but we have better skilled players on our team now" I'll simply point out that we just finished 5th last with our "team full of super skilled players."
Every fanbase overvalue their own prospects. It's not really a surprise.

Other than Gardiner, no other Leafs prospect contributed to the success of the Leafs last season, before Reimer completely crapped the bed. My comment had nothing to do with having better prospects than we did 4 years ago (which I think we do), but that the team played better during the season than their record indicates.

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12-01-2012, 08:17 PM
  #131
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Ok heres a big question I think you need to consider, if Burke is that good of a GM then why are we still a lottery team? I don't want to hear excuse just actual reasons for why we are still one with him at the helm.
The comeplete cluster**** of an end to the season last year?

This team was in a playoff spot on Feb. 23 2012.

The complete collapse can't be laid at Burke's feet.

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12-01-2012, 08:19 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The comeplete cluster**** of an end to the season last year?

This team was in a playoff spot on Feb. 23 2012.

The complete collapse can't be laid at Burke's feet.
I never said it was 100% Burke's fault, ultimetly it was the players who failed due to laziness and other things. However those players are the very same ones that Burke brought in over the past 4 years, so yes he too holds his share of responsibility, he doesn't get a pass.

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12-01-2012, 08:21 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
It doesnt matter that he's been here 4 years, fact is his job is to make this team better, 4 years later we are worse off standings wise then when he first arrived. I'm not saying this team has to win the cup or be a contender but some improvments needed to be shown, heck even if we got to the playoffs and got bounced in 4 games that would be improvement.

I'm not a Burke supporter and I also don't hate the guy, I'm just a realist when it comes to him.
Well personally, I think you have to base his results/progress of off some kind of comparison across the league.

If you are just unhappy than maybe you have unrealistic expectations. IMHO.

That's all I can say.

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12-01-2012, 08:24 PM
  #134
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Same response as I was going to post to your reply to me... time.

He's only been here for 4 years. I don't mean to come off as rude or arrogant but show me a GM that has built a competitive NHL team in four years or less?
I really like burke, but I thought I would respond to your question.

I forget the guys name, but the guy who took over the panthers last year took them from the basement to a competent playoff team. That being said I wouldnt want Toronto to go down the same path. Much happier collecting prospects so we can win long term then signing people like jovocop to deals that will only hurt the team.

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12-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #135
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I never said it was 100% Burke's fault, ultimetly it was the players who failed due to laziness and other things. However those players are the very same ones that Burke brought in over the past 4 years, so yes he too holds his share of responsibility, he doesn't get a pass.
How do you know they were lazy?

YOu are making things up that you can't prove now.

Burke wasn't on the ice. Burke wasn't coaching the team. That's where the blame lies. Not on Burke.

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12-01-2012, 08:30 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
I never said it was 100% Burke's fault, ultimetly it was the players who failed due to laziness and other things. However those players are the very same ones that Burke brought in over the past 4 years, so yes he too holds his share of responsibility, he doesn't get a pass.
And as a fan of the leafs you spend some money on them supporting them and you are helping pay their salaries. You are partially responsible too.

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12-01-2012, 08:34 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Paladin2799 View Post
I really like burke, but I thought I would respond to your question.

I forget the guys name, but the guy who took over the panthers last year took them from the basement to a competent playoff team. That being said I wouldnt want Toronto to go down the same path. Much happier collecting prospects so we can win long term then signing people like jovocop to deals that will only hurt the team.
Tallon is the GM your are thinking about. And he's not the greatest example since there is a large share of team that was there before he arrived that contributed to that playoff birth.

I like Tallon too so that's not a shot at him either and he made some good UFA singings and trades [for the immediate impact] but they were bounced in the first round.

Anything of true value in the Panthers franchise was acquired well before Tallon arrived.

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12-01-2012, 09:10 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
And as a fan of the leafs you spend some money on them supporting them and you are helping pay their salaries. You are partially responsible too.
Actually to be fair, I have not bought any merchandise from them in nearly 10 years, whichever tickets i have gotten were free and I don't own leafstv either. If I was paying from MLSE then yes you would have a valid point but fact is while I love the leafs I have not supported MLSE since the last lockout ended.

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12-01-2012, 09:11 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
How do you know they were lazy?

YOu are making things up that you can't prove now.

Burke wasn't on the ice. Burke wasn't coaching the team. That's where the blame lies. Not on Burke.
So your absolving Burke of all the blame? Ask yourself this who was the one who traded for those players and who signed the others to deals? Answer is Burke and yes that makes him partly responsible as well, no denying it.

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12-01-2012, 09:13 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Actually to be fair, I have not bought any merchandise from them in nearly 10 years, whichever tickets i have gotten were free and I don't own leafstv either. If I was paying from MLSE then yes you would have a valid point but fact is while I love the leafs I have not supported MLSE since the last lockout ended.
Watching the leafs on tv? There are the commercials which pay for the tv contract that the Leafs and the NHL have.

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12-01-2012, 09:23 PM
  #141
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So your absolving Burke of all the blame? Ask yourself this who was the one who traded for those players and who signed the others to deals? Answer is Burke and yes that makes him partly responsible as well, no denying it.
Before Wilson started throwing Gus under the bus this team was fighting for the division lead.

The players were fine the coaching was not. HE is no more responsible than any other GM in the league, so quit looking for his head on a platter. The coaches need to coach and the players need to play. The GM can't do that.

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12-01-2012, 09:30 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Before Wilson started throwing Gus under the bus this team was fighting for the division lead.

The players were fine the coaching was not. HE is no more responsible than any other GM in the league, so quit looking for his head on a platter. The coaches need to coach and the players need to play. The GM can't do that.
To be fair, he should have fired Wilson at least a season or two ago. You're not going to go far with the pathetic special teams we've had for the last 4-5 years, and giving up 10+ glorious scoring chances against pretty much every game. Neither of these requires a star-studded lineup to fix.

Burke's made his share of mistakes, but I don't think he's made more than most GMs around the league, or that those mistakes will have a significant effect on the long term goals for the franchise.

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12-01-2012, 09:36 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Before Wilson started throwing Gus under the bus this team was fighting for the division lead.

The players were fine the coaching was not. HE is no more responsible than any other GM in the league, so quit looking for his head on a platter. The coaches need to coach and the players need to play. The GM can't do that.
Your still deflecting, ok lets go with your theory that the players were fine (devils advocate here), your now saying the coach is to blame and lets say he is, again if Wilson was that bad (and he was too) then it was still Burke's responsibility to fire him, again either way you slice it Burke holds accountablity here.

Ok I have to bring up the roster here because its too tempting not too- The reason we started off well is because the Kessel line was the 2nd hottest production in the league, the 2nd line flickered on/off but was mostly off last year, 3rd line was a joke. The goaltending was average for the first 5 games until Riemer went down with an injury and was ice cold until January, January was white hot with Gus in net and I thought he was finally coming out of his shell until Wilson turned coats and went with a rusty Riemer instead. I guess what I am trying to say is the team as a whole just wasn't that good last year, the players are to blame, the coach was to blame and Burke was to blame too.

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12-01-2012, 09:42 PM
  #144
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To be fair, he should have fired Wilson at least a season or two ago. You're not going to go far with the pathetic special teams we've had for the last 4-5 years, and giving up 10+ glorious scoring chances against pretty much every game. Neither of these requires a star-studded lineup to fix.

Burke's made his share of mistakes, but I don't think he's made more than most GMs around the league, or that those mistakes will have a significant effect on the long term goals for the franchise.
To be fair Burke should have canned Wilson from the start of arrival in 08', I say this because their ideolgoies never matched. Burke wanted a big sized snarly team that played chip/chase wheras Wilson wanted a bunch of ballerinas who played uptempo speed game, Burke should have stuck with his ideolgoy and brought in a coach he thought could bring those qualities to the table.

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12-01-2012, 09:51 PM
  #145
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To be fair, he should have fired Wilson at least a season or two ago. You're not going to go far with the pathetic special teams we've had for the last 4-5 years, and giving up 10+ glorious scoring chances against pretty much every game. Neither of these requires a star-studded lineup to fix.

Burke's made his share of mistakes, but I don't think he's made more than most GMs around the league, or that those mistakes will have a significant effect on the long term goals for the franchise.
The season started to go wrong when Wilson said Reimer was still the guy after Gus had played well enough to keep the team near the top of the league. Reimer was still a month or more away from returning, but it seemed to get into Gus' head and his play dropped off. If Wilson had kept his mouth shut and just kept playing Gus he might still be coach.

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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Your still deflecting, ok lets go with your theory that the players were fine (devils advocate here), your now saying the coach is to blame and lets say he is, again if Wilson was that bad (and he was too) then it was still Burke's responsibility to fire him, again either way you slice it Burke holds accountablity here.

BUrke didn't play.

Burke didn't coach.

Sure he's responsible for keeping Wilson around too long but that doesn't make him soley responsible for the team falling so far so fast. Which is something the anti Burke crowd would like us all to believe.

The players had to play and the Coaches had to coach. Burke did everything he could in his position.

YOU guys want to crucify him as some scapegoat, and fail to notice how bad it was when he got here. How Fletcher undermined him with the Steen deal days before he took over.

If the people before BUrke had been any good then we would never have needed BUrke in the first place.

BUrke has some responsibility in the poor finish last year, but he has way more responsibility in the roster full of youth and talent that we now have.

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12-01-2012, 09:55 PM
  #146
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Ok I have to bring up the roster here because its too tempting not too- The reason we started off well is because the (1.)Kessel line was the 2nd hottest production in the league, the 2nd line flickered on/off but was mostly off last year, 3rd line was a joke. The goaltending was average for the first 5 games until Riemer went down with an injury and was ice cold until January, (2.)January was white hot with Gus in net and I thought he was finally coming out of his shell until Wilson turned coats and went with a rusty Riemer instead. I guess what I am trying to say is the team as a whole just wasn't that good last year, the players are to blame, the coach was to blame and Burke was to blame too.
1. You mean the line full of players Burke is responsible for acquiring?

2. You mean Gus the goalie that Burke talked into signing in Toronto instead of the other teams that wanted him?

People are so quick to point out his failings and ignore the good that he has done.

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12-01-2012, 09:56 PM
  #147
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Sure he's responsible for keeping Wilson around too long but that doesn't make him soley responsible for the team falling so far so fast. Which is something the anti Burke crowd would like us all to believe.

The players had to play and the Coaches had to coach. Burke did everything he could in his position.

Your missing the point those players that folded down the stretch were the players Burke brought in, that right there should tell you something. No, Burke didnt play or coach and those players deserve a lot of the blame but then again so does Burke as well for bringing in these guys to begin with.

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12-01-2012, 09:59 PM
  #148
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[QUOTE=charliolemieux;56175775]1. You mean the line full of players Burke is responsible for acquiring?
- Reread my earlier posts, I admitted Burke has brought skill to this team I never once denied he didn't, lets just clear that up.


2. You mean Gus the goalie that Burke talked into signing in Toronto instead of the other teams that wanted him]

- Or how about the goalie who was undrafted and had an underyling heart condtion? I can play your game just as good as your playing it.

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12-01-2012, 10:00 PM
  #149
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Your missing the point those players that folded down the stretch were the players Burke brought in, that right there should tell you something. No, Burke didnt play or coach and those players deserve a lot of the blame but then again so does Burke as well for bringing in these guys to begin with.
Coaches job to motivate.

Coaches Teach Speacial teams etc.

Not Burke's.

He does not deserve "a Lot" of the blame.

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12-01-2012, 10:02 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Coaches job to motivate.

Coaches Teach Speacial teams etc.

Not Burke's.

He does not deserve "a Lot" of the blame.
I agree the coach needs to get the most out of his players, and the players need to excuete it. But guess WHO is responsible for hiring the coach and players.... his name is Brian Burke and he too deserves an equal amount of blame.

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