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Old
12-01-2012, 10:36 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Eager played 8.5 minutes a game with crappy linemates and was basically lost at sea out there as to what role he was supposed to be playing. He still put up decent 4th line numbers considering all that... 8 goals in 63 games and a -1 rating... not bad on a crappy team.

Basically I don't think he could have been used less productively by the coach as he was last season and out of all the 3rd/4th liners on the Oilers I'm actually expecting him to have a large improvement over his performance last year.

I think 15 goals while being a **** disturber that's very hard to play against is within his reach... it's just up to coach Krueger to get that out of him and I'm betting he does it.

Horcoff had almost the same amount of hits as Eager last year. Should tell you something about how unphysical Eager was.

Eager got 9mins/game. For doing essentially nothing. Really I have no idea how Renney could justify having him out there that much. Especially when Eager was taking so many mindless minor penalties that weren't even intimidating. Just stupid penalties. He had the Moreau assignment last season. Get on the ice when we're in the game and take mindblowing penalty after penalty. But not the type of penalties one might expect from someone who's supposed to be an enforcer.

Heres an interesting stat. Hordichuk generated a similar amount of hits in half the minutes Eager had. Hordichuk also fought anything is sight. Was difficult to play against on any shift and you always knew when he was out there. Eager was hardly ever noticed.


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12-01-2012, 10:40 PM
  #27
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Wow, didn't realize until looking him up in hockeydb, his career high is 17 points in his 7 seasons. For some reason I thought he was a 25-30 point guy.
Only 16pts actually.

Not singling you out but this is basically because everybody here talked up Ben Eagers game when he came here. Theres not one stat, attribute, talent, intangible that he really brings. He's not a frequent hitter, doesn't put up any pts, rarely fights.

Years later and I'm still wondering what people see in this player. It always seems as if people think somehow he'll turn into something useful when he's never actually been that.

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12-01-2012, 11:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The point is clear, and it seems as if you missed it, that Eager is completely useless. No coach is going to change that.

Note that Hordichuk, with a fraction of the minutes Eager got had more hits, fights, and impacted meaningfully during his toi. Eager did next to nothing with his.
I don't think I missed any point. Neither yours or my opinion of Eager is relevant to this thread. Hence why I have not offered one.
I would rather discuss the positives of Ralph Krueger of which I believe there are many. Only been impressed by the guy so far, oozes class.

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12-01-2012, 11:04 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Horcoff had almost the same amount of hits as Eager last year. Should tell you something about how unphysical Eager was.
Horcoff played 1586 minutes and had 62 hits = .039 hits per minute
Eager played 538 minutes and had 73 hits = .136 hits per minute

Eager hits 3.5 times as much as Horcoff

The physicality differences between the two are FAR apart and you only have to watch them play to see that.

I do agree Eager wasn't given the red light to be even more physcal though and I'm hoping/expecting Krueger to make better use of Eager and other Oilers to make the team play with more "sandpaper" which will make the team harder to play against.

Just for reference here's all the Oilers from last year and how many hits they had per 60 minutes of ice time...

Darcy Hordichuk 21.5
Colten Teubert 13.5
Lennart Petrell 12.7
Teemu Hartikainen 9.8
Alex Plante 9.4
Ben Eager 8.1
Andy Sutton 7.7
Ladislav Smid 6.8
Theo Peckham 6.2
Ryan Jones 5.9
Philippe Cornet 5.7
Chris VandeVelde 4.9
Jeff Petry 4.8
Cam Barker 4.7
Bryan Rodney 4.5
Corey Potter 4.4
Anton Lander 3.2
Nick Schultz 3.1
Josh Green 2.9
Taylor Hall 2.4
Shawn Horcoff 2.3
Linus Omark 2.2
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 2.1
Ryan Smyth 2
Magnus Paajarvi 2
Jordan Eberle 2
Eric Belanger 1.9
Ales Hemsky 1.1
Ryan Whitney 1
Sam Gagner 1
Taylor Chorney 0
Milan Kytnar 0

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12-01-2012, 11:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
I don't think I missed any point. Neither yours or my opinion of Eager is relevant to this thread. Hence why I have not offered one.
I would rather discuss the positives of Ralph Krueger of which I believe there are many. Only been impressed by the guy so far, oozes class.
I think Krueger will be a good coach provided the players tune in. One of the difficulties I'll note outright is Krueger has very little patience with players who think they are stars.
He sent two of Switzerlands top players home in order to play guys that will buy into the team game. You don't ahve that kind of option in the NHL. If somebody isn't playing up to par its harder to get rid of them.

The trick is will really talented players play Kruegers game. We'll see.

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12-01-2012, 11:13 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Horcoff played 1586 minutes and had 62 hits = .039 hits per minute
Eager played 538 minutes and had 73 hits = .136 hits per minute

Eager hits 3.5 times as much as Horcoff

The physicality differences between the two are FAR apart and you only have to watch them play to see that.
I was being flippant with that. Horcoff is famous for being a no hitter and so I thought it funny they had around the same total hits. The mere fact were talking about the two in the same light is hilarious. Eager is also more physical than flipper the dolphin. Not saying much.

Quote:
I do agree Eager wasn't given the red light to be even more physcal though and I'm hoping/expecting Krueger to make better use of Eager and other Oilers to make the team play with more "sandpaper" which will make the team harder to play against.
How do you make better use of a player who refuses, outright refuses, to play his role? There was no end of frustration with this player last year and times he was in the lineup and did nothing in response to our young guns getting drilled. This is the guy you pat on the back, send him over the boards with "sick em" and he skates around like a figure skater thinking he's Mario Lemieux. Shift ends with a hooking penalty. =Coach killer

Quote:
Just for reference here's all the Oilers from last year and how many hits they had per 60 minutes of ice time...

Darcy Hordichuk 21.5

Ben Eager 8.1
Could've save effort. These are the numbers that are relevant. Two players on the team for exactly the same reason. Note the absolute difference in results.

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12-01-2012, 11:42 PM
  #32
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Eager, in theory, could be a valuable part of the bottom six but he was pretty useless last year. Hordichuk was a much more effective **** disturber. Still, I want to see how he does under Krueger. Defined roles are important to this type of player and the Oilers could use a dose of crazy.

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12-01-2012, 11:43 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I was being flippant with that. Horcoff is famous for being a no hitter and so I thought it funny they had around the same total hits. The mere fact were talking about the two in the same light is hilarious. Eager is also more physical than flipper the dolphin. Not saying much.

How do you make better use of a player who refuses, outright refuses, to play his role? There was no end of frustration with this player last year and times he was in the lineup and did nothing in response to our young guns getting drilled.


Could've save effort. These are the numbers that are relevant. Two players on the team for exactly the same reason. Note the absolute difference in results.
Well I think it was pretty obvious to all that Renney and Eager weren't on the same page. They did not get along and Eager's performance on the ice obviously reflected that.

Is that all on Eager? Some yes.... but Renney is gone and he had issues with using other players effectively in roles as well, and not just you or I could see that... many on the HF boards here talked about that repeatedly last season. Renney was too cerebral while coaching a ****** team and was too much of a pacifist. Sometimes you have to fight dirt with dirt and he simply wasn't willing to do that often enough.

We don't know what was promised to Eager... maybe to "lure" him to the Oilers he was told he'd have a larger role than just being a 4th line **** disturber. Maybe his expectations were different than what Renney served up game to game.

I'm not necessarily making excuses for Eager... I think he could have done better but Renney was canned and Krueger is here now in the HC role and I think there's a chance for Eager and a new coach to have a clean slate and reach an understanding... performance is everything... work hard and play your role and you get increased minutes and responsibilities.

Seems simple enough but I think that understanding was likely lost somewhere between Renney and Eager. Hopefully Krueger can get on the same page again with Eager and the team will benefit from it.

I don't think Eager is useless. The guy is speedy... not just for his size... but speedy period. He has decent hands as well. 8 goals isn't chopped liver. Playing on the 4th line @ 8.5 minutes a game with crappy linemates... that's decent production. He can hit and be belligerent when he plays up to his potential. Just ask Canuck fans.

He takes some stupid penalties yes... he took 2.2 penalties per 60 minutes and drew 0.7 per 60 minutes. That basically put his team in the hole a net 14 times over the course of the season. At their penalty killing rate of 82.4% that means he likely cost them 2-3 goals against over the course of the season.

Did he make that up with his offensive stats plus his defensive play and his hitting (he did have more hits per minute than Smid, Peckham and Sutton)?

I think you could make an argument that he did but obviously there is room to improve and I'm expecting more from him next year. I just don't think he's the pile of suck that you make him out to be.

His plus/minus stats also show he didn't crap the bed completely(many other Oilers did worse).

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12-01-2012, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I think Krueger will be a good coach provided the players tune in. One of the difficulties I'll note outright is Krueger has very little patience with players who think they are stars.
He sent two of Switzerlands top players home in order to play guys that will buy into the team game. You don't ahve that kind of option in the NHL. If somebody isn't playing up to par its harder to get rid of them.

The trick is will really talented players play Kruegers game. We'll see.
Agreed, the bolded is key.
For me the patience thing is not necessarily a bad thing. Sure he can't send guys home like he did with the Swiss team but there are things he can do to if he needs to, there is the press box and he can sit a player if needs be. The complacency thing needs to be dealt with.
Our kids are already our best players and from what I can see it is less likely they will be problematic than the veterans. Last year there was lack of effort from some of the vets and Renney did **** *** about it.
I think Krueger could care less who he has to call out, if we are unfortunate enough to see Horc in Oiler silks again, I could see Ralph putting him in the press box should the situation demand it, everyone will be accountable.
We have several nice pieces assembled but we will only be successful as a team not as a collection of individuals.
The sign of a good coach is whether the team is better than the sum of its parts and that is the standard Krueger will be judged by. From what I have seen with him both with the Oilers and Switzerland Krueger will achieve that and more.

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12-02-2012, 02:19 AM
  #35
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More of the same.

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12-02-2012, 04:10 AM
  #36
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Eager is like a lightweight Laraque. A guy with one real talent in hockey, knocking heads. But he is now trying to be something he isn't. Either Kruger convinces Eager to start hitting and fighting, or let me walk.

Eager can be a great light heavyweight and disturber that gets under the other team's skin. But Eager has to decide to do it for the team, not for his own selfish reasons. Only times I've seen him go after someone is when someone takes a run at him. I've yet to see him stand up for a teammate.

Krueger can tell him what the expectation is, but it's Eager that has to do it.

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12-02-2012, 06:21 AM
  #37
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Eager has never been anything more than a so-so forchecker whose loose cannon personality can make him effective in spurts in high pressure situations(like the playoffs). He's never been a scorer or defensive stalwart, he's never been an enforcer either, he's a 4th liner with size that can skate.

Never much understood all the angst over 4th liners though. Typically positions filled with minimum wagers, AHLers, enforcers, unskilled hitters, and ineffective rookies throughout the league.

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12-02-2012, 11:36 AM
  #38
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The thing is, Eager can skate and he has decent hands. It just seems like he really doesn't give a hoot.

The one thing I do like about Eager was the comments made by his cup winning blackhawk team mates, something to the tune of he made them feel safer.

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12-03-2012, 09:06 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
The thing is, Eager can skate and he has decent hands. It just seems like he really doesn't give a hoot.

The one thing I do like about Eager was the comments made by his cup winning blackhawk team mates, something to the tune of he made them feel safer.
Not particularly good hands. People confuse the rare blind squirrel finds a nut moments with actually having good hand eye coordination. Anybody thats played any competitive sport knows that occasionally all your mechanics go right and you actually perfectly pull off what you intended to do. Most people with even reasonable skill in the respective sport can pull something off occasionally, for instance pick a corner occasionally after a filthy deke. Thus I put very little stock into a collection of a few outlier youtube moments. As is the case with a player like Eager.

Actually having hands is being able to do something like that with any level of consistency.
If anything a player like Eager gets 8goals because its too much trouble for opponents to bother getting in his face or trying to cover him tight. He would fall in the category of player that is always uncovered and never usually worried about. He gets a lot of space. If he actually became a 15 goal scorer he might get some attention.

As for the Hawks that must be the only club that figured theres value in Eager. His stock has fallen a lot. Not saying you're wrong about the Hawks thing, but I think the notion of those Hawks players might have more to do with what Eager looked like(big tough) and what they thought he was about, rather than what he did on any regular basis. Eager was somewhat useful in the Hawks playoff run. Not any other time I can think of.

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12-03-2012, 09:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I like Krueger, but nobody is going to get much different out of Eager. Ben wouldn't last 10games on a Scotty Bowman coached club. Get rid of the tool.
He sure didn't show anything last year (gave him a bit of concussion benefit of the doubt, but...) and I would say he wouldn't last any more than 170 games on a Scotty Bowman senior advisored team.

As for Krueger, I don't know what he will do. A good coach should work a style to fit his team, we sure in the heck know this team has not been smart enough to play any coach's style in the last number of years.

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12-03-2012, 09:49 AM
  #41
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How long until people are ripping on Kreuger for not making the right line combos? 1 week?

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12-03-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
The thing is, Eager can skate and he has decent hands. It just seems like he really doesn't give a hoot.

The one thing I do like about Eager was the comments made by his cup winning blackhawk team mates, something to the tune of he made them feel safer.
Isn't it the opposite? Eager thinks he is a player with skill and tries to play that way instead of playing the way his job is defined? Few times he made reference that he wanted more of an offensive role and was told the chance would be there, but never really earned it.

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12-03-2012, 11:18 AM
  #43
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Judging from the couple games he took over from Renney last year I thik we can expect a guy who holds his vets accountable and gives icetime to the players who are excelling. He isn't afraid to call vets out either from what I've read and seen of the swiss national team.

I think this may finally light a fire under horcoffs ass and make him earn at least half of his paycheque which would be a win for us finally.

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12-03-2012, 12:15 PM
  #44
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Not particularly good hands. People confuse the rare blind squirrel finds a nut moments with actually having good hand eye coordination. Anybody thats played any competitive sport knows that occasionally all your mechanics go right and you actually perfectly pull off what you intended to do. Most people with even reasonable skill in the respective sport can pull something off occasionally, for instance pick a corner occasionally after a filthy deke. Thus I put very little stock into a collection of a few outlier youtube moments. As is the case with a player like Eager.

Actually having hands is being able to do something like that with any level of consistency.
If anything a player like Eager gets 8goals because its too much trouble for opponents to bother getting in his face or trying to cover him tight. He would fall in the category of player that is always uncovered and never usually worried about. He gets a lot of space. If he actually became a 15 goal scorer he might get some attention.

As for the Hawks that must be the only club that figured theres value in Eager. His stock has fallen a lot. Not saying you're wrong about the Hawks thing, but I think the notion of those Hawks players might have more to do with what Eager looked like(big tough) and what they thought he was about, rather than what he did on any regular basis. Eager was somewhat useful in the Hawks playoff run. Not any other time I can think of.
Oh come off it.
You don't get to the NHL because you have rare idiot savant stick handling moments.
Anybody who's played sports competitively (and I have, ACAC college soccer for 2 years) knows that practice and hard work and drills hone your skills.
Even Bisonette can stick handle around more basic pro's (as his points in Wales are showing us)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C73RC733qhk

I know you said you don't put stock in "random youtube outlier moments" but how else can we make points around here with visual evidence ?
I'm in no way saying Eager is an elite talent, but he can definitely skate with the best of them and has shown that he can finish.

I'm not a huge Eager fan or anything, I just think he could be a role player this team needs. He never got off to a good start, getting ran in the effing Joey Moss Cup by Tulupov. Renney wouldn't play him properly and maybe he did figure himself to be a goal scorer now, I don't know, but I don't think Kreuger will let him get away with it.

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12-03-2012, 12:37 PM
  #45
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Oh come off it.


I'm not a huge Eager fan or anything, I just think he could be a role player this team needs. He never got off to a good start, getting ran in the effing Joey Moss Cup by Tulupov. Renney wouldn't play him properly and maybe he did figure himself to be a goal scorer now, I don't know, but I don't think Kreuger will let him get away with it.
I don't mind Eager, but if he can't put the back and head injuries behind him he is done.

His role is to be a physical agitator. You aren't going to agitate anyone if the opposition knows you can't fight them or won't hit them.

Hopefully this lockout gets him back to 100%, if not he'll be losing his spot. Heck does he get bought out?

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12-03-2012, 12:58 PM
  #46
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Holy thread derailment Batman. Came in here hoping to read people's thoughts on our new coach, instead I find 2 pages of Ben Eager...

As for Krueger - I didn't like the hiring when it was announced, but I didn't really have a reason for it. Smelled a bit of nepotism I suppose. But having heard him speak a few more times since then, and hearing Justin Schultz talk about how he was a big part of helping make his decision to sign here has definitely changed my opinion.

Of course that could all go out the window a month into his first season (whenever that is), but for now, I am optimistic that he will do good things for this team (ie - Horcoff and Smyth NOT being TOI leaders to start...)

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12-03-2012, 01:32 PM
  #47
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I'm cautiously optimistic for Krueger.

I do like that he's a motivational speaker and can hopefully motivate our guys. For too long we've seen too many nights where our players play uninspired hockey.

Regarding his 'system', IIRC, in an interview with Gregor after he was hired, he stated that he would be looking to play offensive hockey with all the guys on the team. In the German league, he played run-and-gun with a team who had offensive talent(well offensive talent for the German league I guess). He seems to adapt to the sort of players he has, which is really a breath of fresh air and a welcome change from the past "round peg-square hole" approach some of our coaches had.

Those two are my biggest things for him.

1.) To make this team play hockey that suits the players
and
2.) Motive players/hold players accountable.

Regarding #2, if your not giving it 100% every shift, I hope you get your ass stapled to the bench. This pertains to Eager. Nice player when motivated, and really didn't get a fair shake under Renney, but there were times when you could see he wasn't giving a 100%. Same with the vets. No need to spoon feed them playing time due to contract/experience/whatever stupid reason, if you aren't playing well or not giving 100% effort, then you will be demoted.

We will see what Krueger gives us.

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12-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Oh come off it.
You don't get to the NHL because you have rare idiot savant stick handling moments.
Anybody who's played sports competitively (and I have, ACAC college soccer for 2 years) knows that practice and hard work and drills hone your skills.
Even Bisonette can stick handle around more basic pro's (as his points in Wales are showing us)
My intent with that comment was relative to other NHL players that Eager doesn't have great hands. Comparing himself to some hack blind squirrel was obviously analogy, not direct comparison as Eager is an NHL player and not a blind squirrel..
So relative to other NHL forwards Eager doesn't have what I call hands.

Quote:
I know you said you don't put stock in "random youtube outlier moments" but how else can we make points around here with visual evidence ?
I'm in no way saying Eager is an elite talent, but he can definitely skate with the best of them and has shown that he can finish.
Because I often see the youtube videos being largely based on outlier moments that don't say a lot in the case of borderline talents. Also, people citing goals/minute played is also kind of silly as this is a player that in general scores once every dozen games, although got a couple bounces and did more than that last season. But to cite any statistic where theres been 8 occurrences of something across a season means that each data point extremely skews what the average will work out to. Plus that its even sillier for people(not saying you) to project Eager to be a 15goal scorer in this league where his career top pts obtained has been 16. Even more unlikely considering Eager has been very much trending down.

Quote:
I'm not a huge Eager fan or anything, I just think he could be a role player this team needs. He never got off to a good start, getting ran in the effing Joey Moss Cup by Tulupov. Renney wouldn't play him properly and maybe he did figure himself to be a goal scorer now, I don't know, but I don't think Kreuger will let him get away with it.
I see the two bolded statements as conflicting. The first is what you want the player to be but which on the basis of his career has no validation. Its been years since any club could say they got they wanted out of Eager. Second its the notion of externalizing fault, blame, whatever, and applying it to the coach that I find frustrating and highly misleading. Eager Should be the first person to point the finger at himself as he didn't come here prepared to be anything close to what the team needed. Any notion that people could tell Eager was somehow different under Krueger for a few games last year is nothing but conjecture and based on nothing. Certainly silly to invoke that a player was uniquely different in say 25mins played under another coach. As if that limited sample even reveals anything other than chance. (again this not to you but response to the thread)

I keep saying this but if Renney is to blame, and REnney keeps players on shortleash and prevents physical players from playing thier game then why was Hordichuk so much more effective with limited minutes.

Hordi's hits, fights, intensity, aggression, backing up team mates represented far more worth to the team than Ben Eager skating through games pretending he's an NHL talent. Full stop he's hear to look ugly, not pretty, and he never once got that.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-03-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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12-03-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Holy thread derailment Batman. Came in here hoping to read people's thoughts on our new coach, instead I find 2 pages of Ben Eager...

As for Krueger - I didn't like the hiring when it was announced, but I didn't really have a reason for it. Smelled a bit of nepotism I suppose. But having heard him speak a few more times since then, and hearing Justin Schultz talk about how he was a big part of helping make his decision to sign here has definitely changed my opinion.

Of course that could all go out the window a month into his first season (whenever that is), but for now, I am optimistic that he will do good things for this team (ie - Horcoff and Smyth NOT being TOI leaders to start...)
I simply don't know what there is to talk about. Kreuger coached the Oilers for what 3 games last year. Other than that he coached team Switzerland and was an assistant coach here.
I'm not sure we could break down exactly what Kruegers assignments were last year. I know I've seen him run drills in practice, run practices etc but Krueger as an NHL coach is very much of an unknown. We could all say, well I think I'm going to like him a lot.
Really for anybody to come out and say anything definitive in terms of this coach at this point is conjecture and likely bs.

I'll say I like the idea I have in my head about what Krueger could/would be like but I'll leave it at that because its impossible to have an informed opinion on that. Thus the thread derail symbolically indicating that theres really very little to talk about on the topic. despite me just speed typing a page...

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12-03-2012, 02:29 PM
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He sure didn't show anything last year (gave him a bit of concussion benefit of the doubt, but...) and I would say he wouldn't last any more than 170 games on a Scotty Bowman senior advisored team.

As for Krueger, I don't know what he will do. A good coach should work a style to fit his team, we sure in the heck know this team has not been smart enough to play any coach's style in the last number of years.
Oh crap, hahaha.

Least I said "coach". Scotty's maybe lost the touch in recent years. So has Sather I suspect.

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