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12-01-2012, 09:55 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
It doesn't help that he's not producing points. At some point, Jets management will look to replace him with someone who can play well defensively AND produce points. That's just common sense.

Now 3 months into his AHL tenue, i'm sure there are no "trade Burmi" chants going on with Jets management, but they will want to produce some points soon. To say otherwise is crazy. Maybe he needs another year in the AHL, that's fine, but if Burmi is a 10 g scorer in the AHL or NHL, he'll be replaced. Fact of life.
If he's not producing points, fine use that argument. But by and large center's don't tend to score many goals. Other than his Hart year Henrik Sedin has never had more than 22 goals in a season. Better trade him!

In the last two seasons Thornton has 39 goals and 147 points.

Seriously one of the first things they teach you playing hockey is assists are just as good as goals. If he's not producing points, fine use that as an argument. Bashing a center for a lack of goal scoring is simply ignorance of the way hockey is played


Last edited by JetsHomer: 12-01-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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12-01-2012, 09:59 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Thing is though, management has Burmi playing in St.Johns to figure out his game, they said that, he's not there to sharpen his skating or defensive skills, sure not every NHL forward is a goal scorer those that aren't usually play on the fourth line, trouble is that's not where the Jets have him slotted, pretty sure they were hoping for a top six forward who can both be a play maker and score. Besides not being able to score at the AHL level he's not exactly setting up a lot of goals either.
Third line...***
most 3rd liners are your defensive players, most 4th liners are your pylons, rookies, truculence or AHL tweeners

See I think this is where the difference of opinion is at.

I find Burmi already a decent third liner on most teams at young age of 21, so he has possibility of being a decent 2nd liner with possibility of being an elite 3rd liner. Somebody has to take the tough minutes and most teams give this to a third liner. Whether that's Sutter, Staal, Gausted, Helm, Stoll, Halpern, etc...

Some of those guys scored at lower rates than Burmistrov...

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12-01-2012, 10:01 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post


Hey I say it how it is.
If a player is sucking I'll call them out. Burmistrov did not do well today. Period.

I've missed two games, so who knows about them but one of them he was awarded the SJ hardest worker award so I doubt he was bad at that one.

I can 100% tell you this without a doubt in my mind... the bolded parts of your comments is just plain wrong. I don't get why you guys don't get this.

1) Just because he didn't get points in a game doesn't mean he had a bad game??? That concept is just plain... well I can only think of derogatory terms right now so I'll hold it. You can score and still play *****y and you can play awesome and not score. This has been Burmistrov's only bad game (that I've seen).

2) He's a *proven* NHLer last season. Period. He beat middle of the road competition which is better than a good half of NHL regulars can say.
*If you want to use advance stats he was 85/405 NHLers with 30+ games for Rel Corsi
*If you want to talk scoring production he's 261/405 NHLers with 30+games for pts/60mins
*the people above him could have easier assignments
IE: on average he's a top 3 forward for being able to beat his opponents he's lined up against and 8th best producing forward on most teams.


Edit:
Sorry about the partial freak out rant...
Just some of those things aren't true and it bothers me. Ya maybe he won't be a top6 guy or ya maybe he won't learn to produce like we think he could if he improved certain things... but currently he tracks to be the best non-top6 guy on the Jets current roster... and he would be a solid middle 6 guy on almost any team in the NHL already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
If he's not producing points, fine use Thayer argument. But by and lare center's don't tend to score many goals. Other than his Hart year Henrik Sedin has never had more than 22 goals in a season. Better trade him!

In the last two seasons Thornton has 39 goals and 147 points.

Seriously one of the first things they teach you playing hockey is assists are just as good as goals. If he's not producing points, fine use that as an argument. Bashing a center for a lack of goal scoring is simply ignorance of they way hockey is played
Look at the leading scorer in the AHL right now. Justin Schultz. Second is Eberle. Coincidentally, they play on the same team. I haven't watched any OKC games this year, but it's quite telling when the 1 and 2 in the AHL are on the same team, and one's a defensemen.

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12-01-2012, 10:06 PM
  #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
If he's not producing points, fine use that argument. But by and lare center's don't tend to score many goals. Other than his Hart year Henrik Sedin has never had more than 22 goals in a season. Better trade him!

In the last two seasons Thornton has 39 goals and 147 points.

Seriously one of the first things they teach you playing hockey is assists are just as good as goals. If he's not producing points, fine use that as an argument. Bashing a center for a lack of goal scoring is simply ignorance of they way hockey is played
The myth of centers not scoring continues, once again NHL's two top goal scorers last season were both centers. And of course you cherry pick your stats. by naming two low goal scoring centers in Sedin and Thornton. You fail to mention Spezza's 34 goals, Tavares' 31 goals, Seguin's 29 goals, Couture's 31 goals, Pavelski's 30 goals....

In fact the leading goal scorers and points leaders in the A this season are mostly centers aside from Eberle and Schultz.


Last edited by sipowicz: 12-01-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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12-01-2012, 10:13 PM
  #830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
If he's not producing points, fine use Thayer argument. But by and lare center's don't tend to score many goals. Other than his Hart year Henrik Sedin has never had more than 22 goals in a season. Better trade him!

In the last two seasons Thornton has 39 goals and 147 points.

Seriously one of the first things they teach you playing hockey is assists are just as good as goals. If he's not producing points, fine use that as an argument. Bashing a center for a lack of goal scoring is simply ignorance of they way hockey is played
Do centers tend to have more assists than goals? Of course, no argument there. They are typically the playmaker, but to say it's not important for centers to score goals, well...

How easy is it to score goals? Not easy, or everyone would do it.

If Burmi put up crazy assist numbers, there would be less criticism of his play, but there would still be expectations that he scores goals. Currently he's doing neither. You can fault his linemates for not scoring, terrible shooting percentages, but he will need to find a way to score more.

If he scores less than 10 goals this season, his value will drop drastically. Jets management will likely see if this year is an aberration and stick with him, but he'll need to score at some point (soon thereafter) or he'll be replaced.

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12-01-2012, 10:23 PM
  #831
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Ya man I'm cherry pick stats. Not you comparing Burmi to Malkin and Stamkos. Generational talents can score goals. Tavares has always been known as a sniper. Seguin played wing all year. Pavelski had a career goal scoring year and is usually in the low twenties. From my impression of Burmi in the Nhl he is a pass first center. He's never going to score a ton of goals.

Ps good work picking out the 6 nhl*centers that got 30 goals last year

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12-01-2012, 10:25 PM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post

Ps good work picking out the 6 nhl*centers that got 30 goals last year
LOL! You caught me!

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12-01-2012, 10:26 PM
  #833
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Of the top 50 Nhl goal scorers last year, 8 were centers. Stamkos, Malkin, Spezza, Tavares, Couture, Pavelski, Toews and Giroux.

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12-01-2012, 10:28 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Third line...***
most 3rd liners are your defensive players, most 4th liners are your pylons, rookies, truculence or AHL tweeners

See I think this is where the difference of opinion is at.

I find Burmi already a decent third liner on most teams at young age of 21, so he has possibility of being a decent 2nd liner with possibility of being an elite 3rd liner. Somebody has to take the tough minutes and most teams give this to a third liner. Whether that's Sutter, Staal, Gausted, Helm, Stoll, Halpern, etc...

Some of those guys scored at lower rates than Burmistrov...
Garret, i would agree that Burmi was performing at a solid 3rd line center level in the NHL, last year, as a very young player.

But now, based on his current production in the AHL, i would see his performance level dropping... meaning does his current AHL play still equate to solid 3rd line NHL level of play?

I would think Jets management would like to see his play develop into a solid 2nd line NHL level of play, and I say this considering he is being counted on in an offensive role with St. John's. If he was in a 3rd line role with the IceCaps, well this current production may be fine, but he's being asked to play an offensive role - with all the extra icetime and opportunities that comes with that - and he's not producing.

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12-01-2012, 10:36 PM
  #835
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I think Alex suffers a bit from people's expectations being inflated from his first 10 games last season?

It is clear From THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY WATCHING THE ICE CAPS GAMES THE MOST BOTH IN PERSON AND ON TV Burmi is the top player so far this season no?

The kid goes to St Johns for pennies compared to what he can make elsewhere and plays his bag off and is our best player and meanwhile some of our stars (or at least they get paid like that) go over to Europe and flame out but Burmi is the Whipping boy??

Here is my prediction........"IF" there is a season our 3rd line will be a difference maker for us this season and Burmi will show serious progression from last year and it still won't be enough for far too many posters.

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12-01-2012, 10:38 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Garret, i would agree that Burmi was performing at a solid 3rd line center level in the NHL, last year, as a very young player.

But now, based on his current production in the AHL, i would see his performance level dropping... meaning does his current AHL play still equate to solid 3rd line NHL level of play?

I would think Jets management would like to see his play develop into a solid 2nd line NHL level of play, and I say this considering he is being counted on in an offensive role with St. John's. If he was in a 3rd line role with the IceCaps, well this current production may be fine, but he's being asked to play an offensive role - with all the extra icetime and opportunities that comes with that - and he's not producing.
I don't read much into hospital AHL numbers after 20 games. Counting stats aren't great, but he has put 50 shots on net. Sample sizes, puck luck, yada yada. Wait and see.

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12-01-2012, 10:38 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Garret, i would agree that Burmi was performing at a solid 3rd line center level in the NHL, last year, as a very young player.

But now, based on his current production in the AHL, i would see his performance level dropping... meaning does his current AHL play still equate to solid 3rd line NHL level of play?

I would think Jets management would like to see his play develop into a solid 2nd line NHL level of play, and I say this considering he is being counted on in an offensive role with St. John's. If he was in a 3rd line role with the IceCaps, well this current production may be fine, but he's being asked to play an offensive role - with all the extra icetime and opportunities that comes with that - and he's not producing.
True but the entire team is not producing. should Alex be leading the way offensively....perhaps....but I think he is to a degree (chances) but it's just not showing up on the score sheet yet.

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12-01-2012, 10:42 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Garret, i would agree that Burmi was performing at a solid 3rd line center level in the NHL, last year, as a very young player.

But now, based on his current production in the AHL, i would see his performance level dropping... meaning does his current AHL play still equate to solid 3rd line NHL level of play?

I would think Jets management would like to see his play develop into a solid 2nd line NHL level of play, and I say this considering he is being counted on in an offensive role with St. John's. If he was in a 3rd line role with the IceCaps, well this current production may be fine, but he's being asked to play an offensive role - with all the extra icetime and opportunities that comes with that - and he's not producing.
It's really tough to tell if Burmistrov is regressing from last year. I won't say it's impossible because honestly it could be the truth. BUT, I would not say definitely because, he's leading his team's forwards in SOG/GP, all his linemates are at the very most shooting at half their normal sh% (including Burmistrov himself), when none of the players appear to be shooting predominately on the perimeter (including Burmistrov himself), and he's on a team that isn't scoring very well (but getting better).

And of course TNSE would like Burmi to produce at a 2nd line level... I'm sure ANY player TNSE would like to score at a higher rate than they currently do... doesn't mean they are doing a bad job or even bad enough to lose their job...

Honestly, if Burmistrov ultimately fails this season, but still earns his spot in camp, preseason and first few games... If they still send Burmistrov down to the AHL it will be one of the largest management failures by TNSE yet. If a guy is ready to play, then he's ready to play. Same with Scheifele.


OT:
I miss this... Glad I can access HFBoards at the hospital

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12-01-2012, 10:50 PM
  #839
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True but the entire team is not producing. should Alex be leading the way offensively....perhaps....but I think he is to a degree (chances) but it's just not showing up on the score sheet yet.
This may come as a surprise to some, but i like Burmi. I like how he plays. I watched him a ton last year and I like his game. Especially his work on the pk. I want him to succeed, and thought his AHL stint would help kick-start his offensive game to be a valuable top 6 player for the Jets either later this year or next.

At some point, he'll have to produce - at least more than he has to-date in the AHL - to play a top 6 role. I honestly don't think he'll be happy with a bottom 6 role - less icetime and fewer offensive zone opportunities or pp's, the whole 'respect' thing he had trouble with at the end of last year, etc - though that may be where he's best suited.

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12-01-2012, 10:53 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
I don't read much into hospital AHL numbers after 20 games. Counting stats aren't great, but he has put 50 shots on net. Sample sizes, puck luck, yada yada. Wait and see.
valid point, truck.

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12-01-2012, 10:53 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Third line...***
most 3rd liners are your defensive players, most 4th liners are your pylons, rookies, truculence or AHL tweeners

See I think this is where the difference of opinion is at.

I find Burmi already a decent third liner on most teams at young age of 21, so he has possibility of being a decent 2nd liner with possibility of being an elite 3rd liner. Somebody has to take the tough minutes and most teams give this to a third liner. Whether that's Sutter, Staal, Gausted, Helm, Stoll, Halpern, etc...

Some of those guys scored at lower rates than Burmistrov...
Didn't you do some analysis that showed that Burmistrov's numbers last year were pretty comparable to Couturier's?

And yet SC is one of HF's golden boys and a sure fire all-star, and some people here want to lament the play of Burmistrov?

Guarantee that if the Jets win a cup, the same constantly negative people on here will have problems with the way someone carried the cup around the ice.

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12-01-2012, 10:56 PM
  #842
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True but the entire team is not producing. should Alex be leading the way offensively....perhaps....but I think he is to a degree (chances) but it's just not showing up on the score sheet yet.
Now you've got me worried we have nothing on the farm that we can use re: forwards that can play a top 6 or 9 role.

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12-01-2012, 11:01 PM
  #843
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Didn't you do some analysis that showed that Burmistrov's numbers last year were pretty comparable to Couturier's?

And yet SC is one of HF's golden boys and a sure fire all-star, and some people here want to lament the play of Burmistrov?

Guarantee that if the Jets win a cup, the same constantly negative people on here will have problems with the way someone carried the cup around the ice.
Last year, Burmi and SC numbers were almost identical.

This year, SC has 6 gs/11 as/17 pts in 18 gms - so that's a bit different. That's why i'm having a hard time with Burmi's numbers this year in the AHL.

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12-01-2012, 11:07 PM
  #844
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Now you've got me worried we have nothing on the farm that we can use re: forwards that can play a top 6 or 9 role.
Sad truth is, we really don't. Outside of Burmistrov, there is really only 2 other guys with top 6 potential in Ivan Telegin and Carl Klingberg. And even Klingberg is starting to look like top 9 at best at this point. Spencer Machacek will probably be an NHLer some capacity, but his high end is still top 9 guy, IMO. Reality, we have the hit or miss Telegin (hard to say where he will eventually fit, probably top 6 or bust), and two potential 3rd liners in Machacek and Klingberg and Machacek would be in NHL already without lockout, IMO.

Outside of that, there's Cormier, who is basically a 4th line C at best, IMO, not to mention he is starting to look like a huge injury bug. Then there's longshots like O'Dell, Maxwell, Macenauer who all have some key thing working against them (O'Dell likely needs to be in a scoring role and has failed to show top end potential, Maxwell is getting older and not been able to jump or show top end potential, Macenauer has very limited upside).

Nobody else really has NHL potential, IMO. There's really not that much young talent down there right now, part of the reason they are heavily dependant on veterans. The worst part might be that the veterans are not playing well. Although that might be a good thing allowing O'Dell and co to get more chances to play.

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12-01-2012, 11:09 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Last year, Burmi and SC numbers were almost identical.

This year, SC has 6 gs/11 as/17 pts in 18 gms - so that's a bit different. That's why i'm having a hard time with Burmi's numbers this year in the AHL.
That's cool. I think we all would "like" Burmi to be ripping things up. It would give everyone the warm and fuzzies.

IMO, there's a big difference in being a little disappointed that Burmi isn't doing well (but realizing that the entire team isn't doing well and the coaching staff is doing nothing but signing Burmistrov's praises), as opposed to ignoring Burmistrov's play last year, ignoring the praise from the Caps coaching staff, and ignoring the play of the entire team, and using box stats to decide that a 21 year old kid with a tonne of talent is someone even close to being a disappointment after 22 games in the AHL.

Not saying that's you btw....

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12-01-2012, 11:11 PM
  #846
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I'll do a statistical breakdown of Burmi tonight when I get home from work (**** lab work... I'll do that Sunday).
If anyone has any reasonable NHLers from last season or AHLers this season for me to look at to compare let me know now...

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12-01-2012, 11:18 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
This may come as a surprise to some, but i like Burmi. I like how he plays. I watched him a ton last year and I like his game. Especially his work on the pk. I want him to succeed, and thought his AHL stint would help kick-start his offensive game to be a valuable top 6 player for the Jets either later this year or next.

At some point, he'll have to produce - at least more than he has to-date in the AHL - to play a top 6 role. I honestly don't think he'll be happy with a bottom 6 role - less icetime and fewer offensive zone opportunities or pp's, the whole 'respect' thing he had trouble with at the end of last year, etc - though that may be where he's best suited.
I am not suprised you like him Bob I think most posters do they are just frustrated. I would like to see his offense progress and I believe it will but that is not my primary concern this season.

My feelings are that if he can have a good year in the Jets top 9 anywhere (tweener 3rd 2nd liner) then He will be happy. I honestly think if he could play consistantly with Poni and Antro on our 3rd unit he could have an impactful year where he shows real statistical progression. I also like the idea of him playing with two veterans from the Eastern block where the communication skills would be a non issue. I think that combined with his stint in the AHL with prime minutes could make for a really diverse development year that could help him grow. I like the idea of Alex playing a simple cycle, puck possession, shut down game with two big bodies like Poni and Antro. I seem him fitting well and being a nice compliment to that group. that could be a great 3rd line.

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12-01-2012, 11:18 PM
  #848
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
That's cool. I think we all would "like" Burmi to be ripping things up. It would give everyone the warm and fuzzies.

IMO, there's a big difference in being a little disappointed that Burmi isn't doing well (but realizing that the entire team isn't doing well and the coaching staff is doing nothing but signing Burmistrov's praises), as opposed to ignoring Burmistrov's play last year, ignoring the praise from the Caps coaching staff, and ignoring the play of the entire team, and using box stats to decide that a 21 year old kid with a tonne of talent is someone even close to being a disappointment after 22 games in the AHL.

Not saying that's you btw....
Hahahaha... No that's fair, i've sent plenty of arrows aimed in Burmi's direction. But, I know the coaching staff seems pleased with his play, and that's likely the main thing at this point.

Am i disappointed, ya, but more curious as to why he's not producing right now. It's important that he does produce - goals/points, etc. - as well as play a solid defensive game.

Honestly, truck's post about this being too small a sample size hit home, a bit. I'll sit back and see how the rest of his time there (hopefully short) goes.

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12-01-2012, 11:21 PM
  #849
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Now you've got me worried we have nothing on the farm that we can use re: forwards that can play a top 6 or 9 role.
Potential top 6 players in St. John's, Burmi and Telegin are it. The farm is still hurting from the ATL days.

If we are gonna cherry pick stats, Burmi has out shooting RNH and out scoring Adam Henrique, maybe we could pick them up in exchange for a couple bags of pucks.

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12-01-2012, 11:21 PM
  #850
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I'll do a statistical breakdown of Burmi tonight when I get home from work (**** lab work... I'll do that Sunday).
If anyone has any reasonable NHLers from last season or AHLers this season for me to look at to compare let me know now...
I'm sure you'll find some good comparisons based on usage.

For arguments sake, it would be nice to see how he compared against players used in the same way (ice time, zone starts, etc), and also against guys in his age class (Johansen, Niederreiter, Connolly, B Schenn, Kassian, Leblanc, Johansson, Josefson, MPS, etc).

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