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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-01-2012, 07:33 PM
  #226
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
So what would you propose?

I guess if 50/50 is just a band-aid the owners should demand a whole lot more, right?
A fix would include legitimate revenue sharing. Independent audits of all team to prevent another Moyes situation. Tie the cap to owner profits and draconian penalties for the remaining owners should they fold a team or should team go bankrupt.

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12-01-2012, 07:38 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
A fix would include legitimate revenue sharing. Independent audits of all team to prevent another Moyes situation. Tie the cap to owner profits and draconian penalties for the remaining owners should they fold a team or should team go bankrupt.
It's gate driven and their revenue sharing is going up to 300 million.

Audits will never happen because part of the owners case are their closed books protect franchise value. Who is getting the help from that going away? Well CoG i suppose.

You're going to fine a team for going bankrupt? Lol

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12-01-2012, 08:07 PM
  #228
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The real issue here is that the players, while willing to make concessions on the economic stuff, are less willing to concede those items that were conceded to them in exchange for implementing the Cap in the first place. If the NHL left the contract issues out of the negotiation, it would be done already.

(This is aside from the front loading contract issue, which the players are willing to work with as well. Mostly because front-loaded long term contracts hurt their short term escrow payments.)
The contract issues will also help the small market teams.
The small market teams simply need a lot more money. It can't just come from the Maple Leafs sharing all of it's money. That's nuts.

If all the teams were making millions, I would understand the players position better.
But half of the teams are losing money.

I think the millionaire players simply taking a smaller piece (while still being millionaires) is a MUCH better solution than contraction, moving a whole bunch of teams in a gamble, or half the teams continuing to bleed money.
The rich owners are already doing their part, by sharing HUNDREDS of millions of dollars with the small markets.
The players are simply too greedy to try and fix things in their "partnership".

The nhl is not a non profit charity created by billionaires to help the 'poor struggling' middle class hockey players become millionaires.


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12-01-2012, 08:11 PM
  #229
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A fix would include legitimate revenue sharing. Independent audits of all team to prevent another Moyes situation. Tie the cap to owner profits and draconian penalties for the remaining owners should they fold a team or should team go bankrupt.
So you want the few rich teams to share even MORE hundreds of millions of dollars... but are against the millionaire players taking even small pay cuts.

Again, people seem to live in some dream world where they think the nhl is a non profit charity trying to help the poor middle class hockey players become millionaires.

The nhl is a business. Half of the owners are losing money. They already do SUBSTANTIAL revenue sharing...
The players simply take FAR too big a piece of pie.
It's so painfully obvious. I don't know why this argument exists in any capacity.

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12-01-2012, 08:26 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
A fix would include legitimate revenue sharing. Independent audits of all team to prevent another Moyes situation. Tie the cap to owner profits and draconian penalties for the remaining owners should they fold a team or should team go bankrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you want the few rich teams to share even MORE hundreds of millions of dollars... but are against the millionaire players taking even small pay cuts.... Half of the owners are losing money. They already do SUBSTANTIAL revenue sharing...The players simply take FAR too big a piece of pie.
While I agree the players need to withdraw from 57% to actually less than 50%, I didnt read into SJ's post ('s) that he in anyway suggests that that too wouldnt be a requirement in order to stem the bleeding, strengthening the weaker links in the chain. Increased RS WITH a drop in the players share, combined with the checks & balances he's suggesting not only practicable, but logically, about the only way the two parties will ever reach an accord. Transparency. Integrity.

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12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
  #231
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Not sure what you mean. There are 3 Canadian teams in the MLS - about 15%. There are 7 Canadian teams in the NHL - about 25%.
Because Hockey is far and away the number one sport in all Canadian markets. It's always going to be a big money maker here unless there is a total collapse of the economy or the NHL disappears for 5 years. Most Canadian teams(plus New York and others) will always be spending at least tens of millions of dollars on rosters. There would be no way a team that only spends 3.8 mil can compete.

MLS is the like the 3rd best option at most in all of it's markets.

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12-01-2012, 09:34 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you want the few rich teams to share even MORE hundreds of millions of dollars... but are against the millionaire players taking even small pay cuts.

Again, people seem to live in some dream world where they think the nhl is a non profit charity trying to help the poor middle class hockey players become millionaires.

The nhl is a business. Half of the owners are losing money. They already do SUBSTANTIAL revenue sharing...
The players simply take FAR too big a piece of pie.
It's so painfully obvious. I don't know why this argument exists in any capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
While I agree the players need to withdraw from 57% to actually less than 50%, I didnt read into SJ's post ('s) that he in anyway suggests that that too wouldnt be a requirement in order to stem the bleeding, strengthening the weaker links in the chain. Increased RS WITH a drop in the players share, combined with the checks & balances he's suggesting not only practicable, but logically, about the only way the two parties will ever reach an accord. Transparency. Integrity.
Drop the share, and now more teams are posting profits. Move Phoenix (sorry Phoenix fans). That bumps up the cap, however it also puts more money into the RS fund. Now increase RS (from the proposed 6.5%) to 30%. However find a way so that it's not just a money transfer from the rich to the poor (otherwise there's no way to support a massive increase). I'm not sure how the NFL or NBA do it but try to emulate them. Or just put ALL TV money into RS, ALL merchandizing, as well as 20% of teams gate. Then give team team an equal portion (if that's enough to help the bottom teams in a meaningful way).

The issue of the NHLs revenue disparity will never go away. The only way to deal with that is either a ridiculously low cap/floor or a much larger RS program.

The other thing I'd like the parties (NHL/PA) to look at is the teams rising costs (as these will only ever go up going forward), and see if there's a way to somehow acknowledge these, and give some sort of credit towards HRR as they go up. I'm not talking about ALL of their costs, but figure out what the average is now, then perhaps give teams a 50% credit towards HRR of costs over whatever that average is today.

Not all of these costs are in the players benefit, however some of them certainly are (eg, Penguins team doctor who will be traveling with the team on all road trips, more team physio/therapists, etc).

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Old
12-01-2012, 09:45 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
While I agree the players need to withdraw from 57% to actually less than 50%, I didnt read into SJ's post ('s) that he in anyway suggests that that too wouldnt be a requirement in order to stem the bleeding, strengthening the weaker links in the chain. Increased RS WITH a drop in the players share, combined with the checks & balances he's suggesting not only practicable, but logically, about the only way the two parties will ever reach an accord. Transparency. Integrity.
This is all true, but the players aren't fighting for increased RS, they're fighting for higher salaries.

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12-01-2012, 10:13 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
If all the teams were making millions, I would understand the players position better.
But half of the teams are losing money.
Simply put: That's not true. Forbes continuously under represents the revenue teams are pulling in and overstates the costs of running them. Keep in mind that Forbes had the Rangers, of all teams, losing money in the seasons leading up to the first lockout. Anyone familiar with the Rangers knows that's complete bull. Forbes' numbers are not to be trusted.

And even if it were true, it only represents half of the equation. Another third of the equation is that there are owners whose hockey operations do lose money and who simply don't care. That's either because they're making money through other means provided to them by team ownership, like arena operation, or they just like owning a hockey team, like Terry Pegula.

The rest of the equation is completed by the simple fact that it's not the player's job to make team ownership foolproof. Should they work as partners to try to maintain the health of the game? Sure, but those things are not one-in-the-same. If the owners want to make sure they make money owning a hockey team, they need to make sure that they put the people in place to run a hockey team well.

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12-01-2012, 10:27 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This is all true, but the players aren't fighting for increased RS, they're fighting for higher salaries.
Not so sure I agree with you tarheel. They seem to be fighting to keep what theyve got, their Contracts honoured, "then lets chat" type dealeo. Problem we have here is that they simply dont seem to believe that the teams are suffering to the extent claimed, the league announcing record revenues year in year out since 05-06, and if true, prove it. They seem willing to make concessions, already have, but its pretty hard to negotiate with someone who's forever hiding their cards no? This isnt supposed to be a game of Bluff, yet one is left wondering. How much is Gary Bettman holding, and whats he hiding?


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12-01-2012, 10:30 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
They seem willing to make concessions, already have, but its pretty hard to negotiate with someone who's forever hiding their cards no? This isnt supposed to be a game of Bluff, yet one is left wondering. How much is Gary Bettman holding, and whats he hiding?
And this, I personally believe, is the root of the leagues reluctance on revenue sharing. A truly open and honest revenue sharing structure would reveal something that the NHL doesn't really want anyone to know: not that many teams actually need it.


Last edited by Killion: 12-01-2012 at 10:34 PM. Reason: fixed my typo, not yours...
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12-01-2012, 10:38 PM
  #237
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Not so sure I agree with you tarheel. They seem to be fighting to keep what theyve got, their Contracts honoured, "then lets chat" type dealeo. Problem we have here is that they simply dont seem to believe that the teams are suffering to the extent claimed, the league announcing record revenues year in year out since 05-06, and if true, prove it. They seem willing to make concessions, already have, but its pretty hard to negotiate with someone who's forever hiding their cards no? This isnt supposed to be a game of Bluff, yet one is left wondering. How much is Gary Bettman holding, and whats he's hiding?
Issue with this, is that the PA has the ability to audit teams at will. Yet only seemed to exercise it a couple of times, and then specifically to get some of the funds the local municipalities gave the club to help them out.

The issue is the PA doesn't really care if teams are in trouble or not. And if they were really only looking to protect what they currently have, they wouldn't be introducing the offers that they have. Ever offer they've given has always been about them getting a specific amount, that goes up yearly. The exception was the PA's last offer, which had them get 50% plus X amount - which was actually a huge step - and something I'm disappointed the NHL didn't negotiate on.

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12-01-2012, 10:43 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Not so sure I agree with you tarheel. They seem to be fighting to keep what theyve got, their Contracts honoured, "then lets chat" type dealeo. Problem we have here is that they simply dont seem to believe that the teams are suffering to the extent claimed, the league announcing record revenues year in year out since 05-06, and if true, prove it. They seem willing to make concessions, already have, but its pretty hard to negotiate with someone who's forever hiding their cards no? This isnt supposed to be a game of Bluff, yet one is left wondering. How much is Gary Bettman holding, and whats he hiding?
I'm past the point of caring about the CBA details.

Bottom line is this: NHLPA members will likely get $2.25m average a season, or salaries may even stay at previous 2.45m.

Their operations / UFA / HRR / RS may change a bit, but their pay should not be going down at all. And if it does, how much lower? maybe 3 - 5%, if that?? That's worth fighting for, and possibly cancelling another season?

What's the holdup? Just sign the new CBA to play the game you all claim to "love" so much.

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12-01-2012, 10:48 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Over half the teams lost money last year. The players making too much money, that is a fact. The NHLPA has not agreed to a reduction to HRR and has been asking for raises.
Source?

As a side, I love how this figure keeps changing. First it's 17, then 18, then 22, then half, then the new Forbes numbers come out and it's almost half, then it's half again, and now it's more than half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
So what would you propose?

I guess if 50/50 is just a band-aid the owners should demand a whole lot more, right?
Increased revenue sharing (they're proposing to increase it 200M or 220M, but it's not enough) change the linkage system, address the cap floor, etc.

Of course, these things can only happen if the league was serious about fixing the issues, rather than, say, propping up failed franchises in Phoenix to the tune of millions in annual losses, which they can then use as a bargaining chip to crush the union.

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12-01-2012, 10:49 PM
  #240
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Butch, you're right. NHL players aren't human after all. They shouldn't have things like a sense of justice or pride or self-interest.

(And by pride, I don't mean Seven-Deadly-Sins type pride, I mean stand-up-straight type pride)

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12-01-2012, 10:59 PM
  #241
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Issue with this, is that the PA has the ability to audit teams at will. Yet only seemed to exercise it a couple of times, and then specifically to get some of the funds the local municipalities gave the club to help them out.
Sure, and for this amongst other reasons it is difficult to sympathize with the PA's position. If they "think" Bettman & the NHL's just Bluffing & blowing smoke, they should have launched full-on Forensic Accounting procedures on a cross section of teams, and started that procedure quite some time ago. The excuse was that the financials werent available until June/July so Ok, why not look at 2010-11 and with whatever times left get busy on the 2011-12 books, so you at least have some bullets to put in your chamber instead of being made to look so foolish firing blank after blank? Gun looks great, too bad its just a wall hanger. So go pack some powder already.

I understand that, most do. I too believe the NHL's absolutely full of it, and wouldnt trust them to tell me the time of day. Really incredibly unfortunate that Bob Lindquist, a former FBI Forensic Accountant & one of the leading lights in that field resigned shortly after being hired by Kelly when the latter was deposed. So until the PA gets off its duff, rips apart some year ends, no way can this thing move forward as clearly their not buying the soap Bettmans selling. And if the PA does actually know the true state of affairs with say 6-12 teams, signed non-discloses as would be the norm, then Brother, were only getting half the story here. But clearly, just based on Fehrs & players words, thats not the case.

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12-01-2012, 11:07 PM
  #242
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Killion, if you're hiding financial numbers from the players, those numbers won't come out in the audit either.

The other possibility is that the NHLPA looked at the books for the 6-12 teams, found that the teams were making more profit than the NHL was letting on, but can't talk about it due to non-disclosure agreements.

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12-01-2012, 11:25 PM
  #243
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Really? How fine will those fringe NHL players do? AHL for 50-80K per season for few years, after that what?
That doesn't matter. The lockout isn't about fringe NHL players. It's being driven by the middle to top tier earners on the player side and the hardliner scrooges on the owner side. Everyone else doesn't really have a voice.

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12-01-2012, 11:28 PM
  #244
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Sure, and for this amongst other reasons it is difficult to sympathize with the PA's position. If they "think" Bettman & the NHL's just Bluffing & blowing smoke, they should have launched full-on Forensic Accounting procedures on a cross section of teams, and started that procedure quite some time ago. The excuse was that the financials werent available until June/July so Ok, why not look at 2010-11 and with whatever times left get busy on the 2011-12 books, so you at least have some bullets to put in your chamber instead of being made to look so foolish firing blank after blank? Gun looks great, too bad its just a wall hanger. So go pack some powder already.

I understand that, most do. I too believe the NHL's absolutely full of it, and wouldnt trust them to tell me the time of day. Really incredibly unfortunate that Bob Lindquist, a former FBI Forensic Accountant & one of the leading lights in that field resigned shortly after being hired by Kelly when the latter was deposed. So until the PA gets off its duff, rips apart some year ends, no way can this thing move forward as clearly their not buying the soap Bettmans selling. And if the PA does actually know the true state of affairs with say 6-12 teams, signed non-discloses as would be the norm, then Brother, were only getting half the story here. But clearly, just based on Fehrs & players words, thats not the case.
It's a good news/bad news type of scenario: The good news is the league has made record revenues; the bad news is those revenues were generated by just three teams

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12-01-2012, 11:29 PM
  #245
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Killion, if you're hiding financial numbers from the players, those numbers won't come out in the audit either.

The other possibility is that the NHLPA looked at the books for the 6-12 teams, found that the teams were making more profit than the NHL was letting on, but can't talk about it due to non-disclosure agreements.
Exactly. You wanna play funny with books at that level, from arena management on down the line through concessions, maintenance fee's & charges, parking, on & on & on, believe me, you'll get away with it.... and as for your second point, yes, thats a possibility, something Ive thought about, explaining some of Fehrs' own and a few of the players comments, adamant in some quarters the existing contracts be honoured in full; intractable posturing. Then you look at Bettman. I see a Man who's been called out, albeit in private after almost every closed door session. Something funnys going on....

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12-01-2012, 11:56 PM
  #246
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Source?

As a side, I love how this figure keeps changing. First it's 17, then 18, then 22, then half, then the new Forbes numbers come out and it's almost half, then it's half again, and now it's more than half.
Have you noticed that the number of teams that are supposedly losing money is NEVER claimed to be less than 5. Always over 10 or 15, and less than 20.

If the "actual" number was less than 5, we'd be playing hockey right now.

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12-02-2012, 12:02 AM
  #247
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Apparently this lockout is killing downtown St. Paul! Good job NHL! Putting even more people out of work!

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12-02-2012, 12:03 AM
  #248
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It's a good news/bad news type of scenario: The good news is the league has made record revenues; the bad news is those revenues were generated by just three teams
No, every team (other than Dallas I believe) saw increases in revenues (iirc Dallas was ~90/100m in the late 90s when they made their cup run, and has been under that for a while since). However they also saw massive increases in non-player and player costs. I find it unfortunate that no one seems to acknowledge what it costs to run a team. The PA gave the league a couple specific exemptions, however made no accounting for inflation, and refuses to add or increase to those exemptions.

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12-02-2012, 12:04 AM
  #249
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No, every team (other than Dallas I believe) saw increases in revenues (iirc Dallas was ~90/100m in the late 90s when they made their cup run, and has been under that for a while since). However they also saw massive increases in non-player and player costs. I find it unfortunate that no one seems to acknowledge what it costs to run a team. The PA gave the league a couple specific exemptions, however made no accounting for inflation, and refuses to add or increase to those exemptions.
Your point is well taken: I was being sarcastic naturally

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12-02-2012, 12:05 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Killion, if you're hiding financial numbers from the players, those numbers won't come out in the audit either.

The other possibility is that the NHLPA looked at the books for the 6-12 teams, found that the teams were making more profit than the NHL was letting on, but can't talk about it due to non-disclosure agreements.
Let me, just as a wild stab in dark, introduce the other other possibility, that the numbers NHLPA got were legit and supported the loss claims of the teams.

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