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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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11-30-2012, 06:19 PM
  #176
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
This is nonsense.

Why do people reference one off games as definitive evidence that the reverse cannot happen. It isn't like we are talking about an elite team facing a good team. Both teams are filled with exceptional players and are capable of beating each other in any game. Variables like goaltending, lucky bounces, deviation in performances from top players, one exceptional play, discipline or even the flu can alter the results of these games.

The NHL has relatively parity. So why wouldn't international ice hockey?

At the elite elite elite level, the outcome of a game between two competitors can vary each time they meet.

OT : Mr Kanadensisk, you're not even a funny troll. If you're going to troll, please inject some humour into it.
I agree completely. We have people claiming "superiority" for winning the '72 series, the Canada Cup, etc., but look at the margins of victory and defeat in these tournaments. In the '72 series, after 8 games, total goals were tied and the margin of victory for Canada was one goal. In the '81 Canada Cup, Canada beat the Soviets in the round robin, 7-3, but then lost to the same team 8-1 in the Final. In the '84 Canada Cup, the Soviets beat Canada in the round robin, 6-3, but then lost to the Canadians in the Semi-Final, 3-2 (OT). In the '87 Canada Cup, Canada and the Soviets tied in the round robin, 3-3, and then had three consecutive 6-5 games in the final. How in the World can you infer superiority from those contests, which were virtually dead heats? The whole argument is completely absurd.

As for Mr. Kanadensisk, don't waste your breath. He adopts the most ludicrous positions, and then plays games allegedly defending them. Arguing with him is not worth the key strokes.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 11-30-2012 at 06:24 PM. Reason: omission
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11-30-2012, 07:48 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Yes there are differences and varying degrees of severity but if this impact on player performance was that big an issue it should have appeared with French Canadians, even if it was to a lesser degree than say Russians. As a side note you might be interested to know that a higher percentage of Swedes and Finns speak english than do the Quebecois. I should also mention that there are loads of new immigrants in all NHL cities these days, and BTW a lot more of them are from Russia than say Quebec or any other hockey country.
French Canadiens are surrounded by English Canadian and American culture. Few French Canadians have never been the US or English Canada. Outside of language they share many of the same cultural traits as their Anglo American counter parts. The difference in Russian culture to North American is immense. I've lived in both the former Soviet Union and Montreal and there is no comparison to the adjustment. You simply have to look at how many Canadian players struggle with the adaptation to life in Russia during this and the last lockout. Many of them quickly realize it's easier to take less money in a place like Switzerland than deal with the culture shock. All credit to the Russian players who come here and make it look so easy.

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11-30-2012, 08:56 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
OT : Mr Kanadensisk, you're not even a funny troll. If you're going to troll, please inject some humour into it.
I'm not trying to be funny, just truthful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course, but given it happens once every four years, and has yet to be won twice by any nation since it became the best on best, we can hardly use it as any definitive measurement.
This however I did get a good chuckle out of. There has only been four of them, how thick do you have to be to lose count of that one?

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11-30-2012, 09:28 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
Well u cant compare Russia to any western european country. They got a different alphabet, they behave different and since Russia is a big country, they dnt need to learn english etc. French Canada is still Canada and they are also westerners. Ofc its alot harder for a russian player to adapt, than a canadian frenchie. The russian needs to learn a new alphabet, new culture (im not talking about going from Borscht to big mac, but russians behave in their own way. They need to behave in a more western way to fit in), smaller rinks, bigger arenas and english speaking teammates.

U should also know that the english language has been influenced by french, german, norwegian etc. So english is closer to french, than russian.
I agree, there is more of a linguistic and cultural adjustment for Russians coming to NA than there is for Western Europeans or Quebecois moving to english cities. The relatively large number of immigrants from Russia now living in NA probably helps a bit, but granted the adjustment probably isn't easy. However I have to point out that most immigrants to NA aren't from Europe anymore. I would guess that the adjustment for Russians is much easier than it is for people from China, India, the Middle East, etc, etc, so I think in the big picture it may not be as tough for Russians as some would suggest.

My original point was that if these cultural and linguistic adjustments resulted in poorer performance on the ice we should have seen it with other groups such as the Quebecois, albeit to a lesser degree.

Being married to a Scandinavian I have to call you on one thing though. The influence Norwegian has had on English is almost completely negligible. Old Norse maybe a tiny bit, but Norwegian, I don't think so.

I'm sure this article where Swedes lay claim to all things Scandinavian will make your Norwegian blood will boil, but we should all remember the Vikings next Thors-day!

http://www.thelocal.se/43994/20121023/


Last edited by Mr Kanadensisk: 11-30-2012 at 09:59 PM.
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11-30-2012, 09:37 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
This is nonsense.

Why do people reference one off games as definitive evidence that the reverse cannot happen. It isn't like we are talking about an elite team facing a good team. Both teams are filled with exceptional players and are capable of beating each other in any game. Variables like goaltending, lucky bounces, deviation in performances from top players, one exceptional play, discipline or even the flu can alter the results of these games.

The NHL has relatively parity. So why wouldn't international ice hockey?

At the elite elite elite level, the outcome of a game between two competitors can vary each time they meet.

OT : Mr Kanadensisk, you're not even a funny troll. If you're going to troll, please inject some humour into it.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

In other words russia bringing the same core group players which for the most part they will, should not be expected to lead to greater results.

I predict not only will they not win gold on home ice they will not medal.

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11-30-2012, 09:38 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As for Mr. Kanadensisk, don't waste your breath. He adopts the most ludicrous positions, and then plays games allegedly defending them. Arguing with him is not worth the key strokes.
If my ideas were ludicrous then even a below average debater such as yourself should have been able to discredit them.

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11-30-2012, 09:48 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
French Canadiens are surrounded by English Canadian and American culture. Few French Canadians have never been the US or English Canada. Outside of language they share many of the same cultural traits as their Anglo American counter parts. The difference in Russian culture to North American is immense. I've lived in both the former Soviet Union and Montreal and there is no comparison to the adjustment. You simply have to look at how many Canadian players struggle with the adaptation to life in Russia during this and the last lockout. Many of them quickly realize it's easier to take less money in a place like Switzerland than deal with the culture shock. All credit to the Russian players who come here and make it look so easy.
For the most part I agree with you although again I have to point out that it is a much bigger adjustment for most immigrants to NA, who come from places other than Europe than it is for even Russians.

I'm sure the vast majority of the people on this planet would choose living and working in Switzerland over Russia if given the choice, no offense to Russia but it is really hard to compare the two countries in this respect.

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11-30-2012, 11:36 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
For the most part I agree with you although again I have to point out that it is a much bigger adjustment for most immigrants to NA, who come from places other than Europe than it is for even Russians.

I'm sure the vast majority of the people on this planet would choose living and working in Switzerland over Russia if given the choice, no offense to Russia but it is really hard to compare the two countries in this respect.
I am sure Chinese and other immigrants do have a culture shock, but there simply are not that many playing hockey. It's fairly easy to compare the two countries, Switzerland and Russia, since we are talking about players coming from or going to those countries.

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11-30-2012, 11:46 PM
  #184
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Let's not forget that cultural differences extend to 'hockey culture' as well.

In the big picture, the hockey culture of North America is quite uniform. Even a non-English speaking Quebecois would have no difficulty understanding the drills, type of hockey played in, let's say, New York. Does Team Canada have difficulty uniting French and Anglo Canadians? Not really.

However, Russian hockey culture is worlds apart from NA. These differences extend to hockey mentality, style of game, coaching tactics, types of practice, player development, player roles, off ice training, etc. etc. Now include language and off-ice cultural differences, and it's no wonder why numerous quality players can't adjust.


Last edited by Zine: 11-30-2012 at 11:57 PM.
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12-01-2012, 04:29 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I am sure Chinese and other immigrants do have a culture shock, but there simply are not that many playing hockey. It's fairly easy to compare the two countries, Switzerland and Russia, since we are talking about players coming from or going to those countries.
What I meant was that Switzerland has a lot going for it that Russia doesn't. Aside from all the socioeconomic issues the travel alone for a hockey player in Switzerland is much easier.

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12-01-2012, 04:38 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

In other words russia bringing the same core group players which for the most part they will, should not be expected to lead to greater results.

I predict not only will they not win gold on home ice they will not medal.
And you are no Albert Einstein. Perhaps think what something means before you try and implement a "clever" phrase.

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12-01-2012, 04:49 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Let's not forget that cultural differences extend to 'hockey culture' as well.

In the big picture, the hockey culture of North America is quite uniform. Even a non-English speaking Quebecois would have no difficulty understanding the drills, type of hockey played in, let's say, New York. Does Team Canada have difficulty uniting French and Anglo Canadians? Not really.

However, Russian hockey culture is worlds apart from NA. These differences extend to hockey mentality, style of game, coaching tactics, types of practice, player development, player roles, off ice training, etc. etc. Now include language and off-ice cultural differences, and it's no wonder why numerous quality players can't adjust.
Every time I have checked Russia's production of NHL quality players has been pretty much exactly in line with the overall number of people playing the sport there and the number of hockey arenas in Russia. I've heard every excuse in the book but the bottom line to me is that if Russia wants to produce the same amount of quality players as Canada they need to build more arenas and get more kids playing the sport.

I grant you that there are also hockey culture adjustments to be made, but for an elite player I think these are overcome relatively quickly.

It happens all the time that prospects don't pan out and don't meet peoples expectations, just as lots of times players excel when they weren't expected to. It just seems to me that whenever a Russian prospect doesn't pan out over here almost every Russian fan blames it one way or another on North America when they should realize that's the way it is often with any prospect.

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12-01-2012, 08:08 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Every time I have checked Russia's production of NHL quality players has been pretty much exactly in line with the overall number of people playing the sport there and the number of hockey arenas in Russia. I've heard every excuse in the book but the bottom line to me is that if Russia wants to produce the same amount of quality players as Canada they need to build more arenas and get more kids playing the sport.

I grant you that there are also hockey culture adjustments to be made, but for an elite player I think these are overcome relatively quickly.

It happens all the time that prospects don't pan out and don't meet peoples expectations, just as lots of times players excel when they weren't expected to. It just seems to me that whenever a Russian prospect doesn't pan out over here almost every Russian fan blames it one way or another on North America when they should realize that's the way it is often with any prospect.



Now you're just shifting the argument and stating broad accusations. Let's stay on topic......the topic being your denial that cultural differences can greatly affect player performance. Just look at Evander Kane's agent's recent statements as more evidence.

Look at the KHL with North Americans. Guys like Dallman and Hodgman are performing well while Kane and Pavelski (USA olympian) are not. AHLer Hutchinson has looked better than USA top 4 d-man McDonagh. Even among Russians, loads of KHL regulars are miles ahead of NHL regulars. Yet according to your NHL worldview, we should still consider the established NHLers better?

Global hockey is an apples and oranges world, yet you're making a judgement based on counting apples only.


Last edited by Zine: 12-01-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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12-01-2012, 08:01 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I agree, there is more of a linguistic and cultural adjustment for Russians coming to NA than there is for Western Europeans or Quebecois moving to english cities. The relatively large number of immigrants from Russia now living in NA probably helps a bit, but granted the adjustment probably isn't easy. However I have to point out that most immigrants to NA aren't from Europe anymore. I would guess that the adjustment for Russians is much easier than it is for people from China, India, the Middle East, etc, etc, so I think in the big picture it may not be as tough for Russians as some would suggest.

My original point was that if these cultural and linguistic adjustments resulted in poorer performance on the ice we should have seen it with other groups such as the Quebecois, albeit to a lesser degree.

Being married to a Scandinavian I have to call you on one thing though. The influence Norwegian has had on English is almost completely negligible. Old Norse maybe a tiny bit, but Norwegian, I don't think so.

I'm sure this article where Swedes lay claim to all things Scandinavian will make your Norwegian blood will boil, but we should all remember the Vikings next Thors-day!

http://www.thelocal.se/43994/20121023/
There are alot of immigrants that dosent adapt to the new society. At least its like that in Norway and I guess som from ME, Asia or Africa dosent fit in in NA. Its hard to learn a new lang, culture and make friends. That was my point

Well did u know that the city of York got its name from norwegians/danes. York =Jorvik New York = Ny Jordvik. Also here u got a list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rwegian_origin

Many of the words u use comes from other germanic languages. From norwegian u got words like arm, bag, ski etc. England was invaded by Denmark, Saxones, Jyder etc.

And btw I dnt care about the swedes. At least they got cheap food, tobacco and booze. I can also watch swedish sport streams without any problem The danes on the other hand are impossible to understand. Sounds like they got poteto in their mouth....

But lets not make this a discussion about lang. I think we more or less agree


Last edited by TollefsenFan: 12-01-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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12-01-2012, 09:58 PM
  #190
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And btw I dnt care about the swedes. At least they got cheap food, tobacco and booze.
Norwegians, the only people on planet earth that consider booze to be cheap in Sweden. You guys got it rough

Kudos to Yakushev for bringing some reason into this intl hockey tournament discussion

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12-01-2012, 11:59 PM
  #191
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Norwegians, the only people on planet earth that consider booze to be cheap in Sweden. You guys got it rough

Kudos to Yakushev for bringing some reason into this intl hockey tournament discussion
Thank you for the kind words. I do my best.

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12-02-2012, 05:44 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by TollefsenFan View Post
There are alot of immigrants that dosent adapt to the new society. At least its like that in Norway and I guess som from ME, Asia or Africa dosent fit in in NA. Its hard to learn a new lang, culture and make friends. That was my point
I agree, although to be fair in general I think it is a bit easier for new immigrants to fit into NA (CAN & US) society since we are essentially two countries built by immigrants.

BTW if you are looking for cheap booze and a night out with some drunken Stockholmers I highly recommend the overnight powercruise to Åland.

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12-02-2012, 06:05 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Now you're just shifting the argument and stating broad accusations. Let's stay on topic......the topic being your denial that cultural differences can greatly affect player performance. Just look at Evander Kane's agent's recent statements as more evidence.

Look at the KHL with North Americans. Guys like Dallman and Hodgman are performing well while Kane and Pavelski (USA olympian) are not. AHLer Hutchinson has looked better than USA top 4 d-man McDonagh. Even among Russians, loads of KHL regulars are miles ahead of NHL regulars. Yet according to your NHL worldview, we should still consider the established NHLers better?

Global hockey is an apples and oranges world, yet you're making a judgement based on counting apples only.
I don't think I shifted the topic at all and by the way where did I say cultural adjuments can never affect player performance? I would love to discuss this with you but please go back a read what I have posted so I don't have to repeat things over and over.

I believe the main challenge for players is adjusting to the different rink size and rules between NA and Europe. Again it is hard to generalize, some players will adjust quickly, some may take half a season or more, some may find they can't adjust at all.

Also I think we have to admit there is a huge difference in the motivation for a player to adjust, for example an established NHLer looking for conditioning is very different from someone like Dallman who needs the job.

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12-02-2012, 06:14 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I agree, although to be fair in general I think it is a bit easier for new immigrants to fit into NA (CAN & US) society since we are essentially two countries built by immigrants.

BTW if you are looking for cheap booze and a night out with some drunken Stockholmers I highly recommend the overnight powercruise to Åland.
While I can't be classified as an immigrant in a new land, but from my personal and professional experience, as an expat spending 8 months of the year living abroad and have been doing so for the past several years, I don't think any one country is any easier than any other with regards to adapting... I think it depends to a great extent on the personality and character of the person who is doing the immigrating.

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12-02-2012, 10:05 AM
  #195
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While I can't be classified as an immigrant in a new land, but from my personal and professional experience, as an expat spending 8 months of the year living abroad and have been doing so for the past several years, I don't think any one country is any easier than any other with regards to adapting... I think it depends to a great extent on the personality and character of the person who is doing the immigrating.
I agree that personality is a big part of it and also how determined the person is to make the adjustment. However I think every place and culture varies as to how they accept newcomers into their communities so I wouldn't say all situations are equal. To give an extreme example I think a Jewish person from Israel moving to Afghanistan might find the cultural adjustment difficult. Also there are other factors such as if the new place has an established expat community from your homeland which can help with the adjustment.


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12-03-2012, 05:31 AM
  #196
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Norwegians, the only people on planet earth that consider booze to be cheap in Sweden. You guys got it rough

Kudos to Yakushev for bringing some reason into this intl hockey tournament discussion
Spot on
According to most politicians prices and taxes are low

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12-03-2012, 01:56 PM
  #197
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Russia produces and will continue to produce some of the best players in the world, however when it comes to labeling a country as best in the world I tend to look at the most recent Olympics. WJC is a good indicator of which country has the best up and coming players (within a 2-3 year draft class) but not which country is definitively the best. And looking at the last 10 years Canada and Russia have both had reasonable levels of success at this tournament. The WC don't really count in my opinion simply because Canada (I don't know enough about the Russian roster to say the same thing) doesn't send their best players, it occurs while NHL playoffs are happening and most players decide to rest or are busy in the playoffs. Olympics are the only tournament that all countries send their best available players. Just compare any WC roster to the Olympic roster and you can see why I dismiss that tournament. However this year the WC rosters should be quite talented as the NHL is locked out, and European players truly pride representing their country over and club team and usually always show up.

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12-03-2012, 01:57 PM
  #198
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On the Junior level they are close, but senior level they are pretty far IMO

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12-03-2012, 02:21 PM
  #199
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On the Junior level they are close, but senior level they are pretty far IMO
Absolutely. When it was best on best in 2010, the butt kicking Canada gave Russia in the QF was proof.

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12-03-2012, 02:25 PM
  #200
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Win the Olympics or this conversation doesn't even get started....

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