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Best goalie while a Pen (Fans opinion)

View Poll Results: Best goalie while a Pen
Marc-Andre Fleury 21 29.17%
Tom Barrasso 48 66.67%
Other 0 0%
Not sure 3 4.17%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-02-2012, 09:05 AM
  #26
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Ron Tugnutt ftw!

I hate that Tommy B's name even gets mentioned: The dude couldn't make a save to save his life and he gets credit for playing behind a team that could outscore the opposition no matter how many terrbible goals he let in.
You either have an atrocious memory or never actually watched him play.

I can't make it anymore simple than this:

No Barrasso, no cups.

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12-02-2012, 09:32 AM
  #27
DyerMaker66
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Funny when the top star in the league can come and tell you to keep it to 3 and under.
Guess what a 3.53 GAA and a 0.885 SV% gets you today: Brent Johnson.

This despite playing behind some of the best teams of the day. If the pens had an actual goalie they just might've won another cup or two.

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12-02-2012, 09:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Guess what a 3.53 GAA and a 0.885 SV% gets you today: Brent Johnson.

This despite playing behind some of the best teams of the day. If the pens had an actual goalie they just might've won another cup or two.
I know everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this is an example of an opinion being incorrect. Barrasso isn't one of the greatest ever or anything; but he was a very good goalie and he's head and shoulders the best the Penguins have had.

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12-02-2012, 09:47 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You either have an atrocious memory or never actually watched him play.

I can't make it anymore simple than this:

No Barrasso, no cups.
Yeah, I'm sure no other goalie could've won behind that team; not even the one that played for the next team to win the Cup.

I have an awesome memory; one that remembers the team just needing Tommy B to make a save and him being unable to do it. His team scoring 4 goals a night and him letting 5 in (sort of like MAF's most recent playoff experience).

People who **** and moan about MAF, but then point to Tommy B need to wake up: The guy could've been replaced by Craig Billington and they still would've won.

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12-02-2012, 09:51 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I know everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this is an example of an opinion being incorrect. Barrasso isn't one of the greatest ever or anything; but he was a very good goalie and he's head and shoulders the best the Penguins have had.
You nailed it.

MAF has surpassed him.

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12-02-2012, 09:55 AM
  #31
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I know everyone is entitled to an opinion, but this is an example of an opinion being incorrect.
And Bingo was his name-o.

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12-02-2012, 10:03 AM
  #32
DyerMaker66
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
And Bingo was his name-o.
Stats and facts are always a poor basis for an opinion.

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12-02-2012, 10:17 AM
  #33
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Barrasso's stats and his stand-up style sure look awkward by today's standards. And he faded badly in the second half of the 90s. But like Grant Fuhr with the Oilers, he was the right goalie in the right place. He could hold down the fort when it counted, at least for most of his tenure here. His great puckhandling alone (he holds the NHL record for points by a goalie, with 48 assists) was a boon to the Pens run & gun style. He set up a lot of Mario's many shorties that way.

I'd say Barrasso was at least the equal of Richter and Vanbiesbrouck, the other great American goalies of the era. Tim Thomas is hard to compare since he broke out so late and had a short but very high peak.

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12-02-2012, 10:19 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Stats and facts are always a poor basis for an opinion.
stats with no context are indeed a poor basis for an opinion. Not sure what facts you are referring to other than the stats.

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12-02-2012, 10:25 AM
  #35
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stats with no context are indeed a poor basis for an opinion. Not sure what facts you are referring to other than the stats.
T'is what I was referring to.

The team he played behind is the context.

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12-02-2012, 10:26 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
T'is what I was referring to.

The team he played behind is the context.
right, so a team that played much less defensive hockey than current teams. Contextually, he was at a disadvantage to Fleury because his teams did not play nearly as strong defense as the majority of teams Fleury has played behind. Comparing his stats to current Brent Johnson or Fleury stats doesn't make sense. The context is too different. The average goals per game was over an extra goal per game in the early 90s compared to what it has been recently. When scoring in the league went down, Barrasso was able to put up a season of .922 sv% and 2.07 gaa for us.

In 91, Barrasso was 2nd in the league for playoff save percentage , 1st for playoff goals against average and 1st for saves. Despite playing in 3 less games, he still saw 58 more shots than the next goalie.

In 92 he was still first in saves and 4th in sv%. Not in the top 5 for GAA and I don't care enough to search somewhere else. He saw 142 shots more than the next closest goalie.

Implying that the team in front of him actually helped his stats is completely ridiculous. The context is that he was playing behind a pure run and gun offense.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-02-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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Old
12-02-2012, 11:09 AM
  #37
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Yeah, I'm sure no other goalie could've won behind that team; not even the one that played for the next team to win the Cup.

I have an awesome memory; one that remembers the team just needing Tommy B to make a save and him being unable to do it. His team scoring 4 goals a night and him letting 5 in (sort of like MAF's most recent playoff experience).

People who **** and moan about MAF, but then point to Tommy B need to wake up: The guy could've been replaced by Craig Billington and they still would've won.
Your memory, as I said, needs a lot of work.

Barrasso was a money goalie who, despite your best attempts of revisionist history, made the big saves when they needed them the most. Even Mark Madden who despises him admitted to that.

Barrasso backstopped them to their first Cup with "which way is my end?" Coffey and two rookies in front of him.

He may of had a stellar offense in front of him, but so did many other goalies in the fire wagon days.

One luxury he never had was a stout blueline, ala Brodeur.

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12-03-2012, 01:16 AM
  #38
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Someone already beat me to Ty Conklin but seriously. I have to give the narrow edge to Fleury. Barrasso was a great goaltender, but I do think he played behind a team that could score more than he let in most of the time. Granted times have changed and the high scorin 90's have passed so comparing GAA isn't really fair. However I think time will prove Fleury to be the better goaltender as his career goes on.

As a side note I would like to think a new goaltender coach could be on the horizon?

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12-03-2012, 01:26 AM
  #39
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Barrasso, although it's close. I do like the Flower. Having said that, as favouritism goes, my Pens goalie will forever be Ken Wregget. Always love the underdogs!

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12-03-2012, 02:15 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
right, so a team that played much less defensive hockey than current teams. Contextually, he was at a disadvantage to Fleury because his teams did not play nearly as strong defense as the majority of teams Fleury has played behind. Comparing his stats to current Brent Johnson or Fleury stats doesn't make sense. The context is too different. The average goals per game was over an extra goal per game in the early 90s compared to what it has been recently. When scoring in the league went down, Barrasso was able to put up a season of .922 sv% and 2.07 gaa for us.

In 91, Barrasso was 2nd in the league for playoff save percentage , 1st for playoff goals against average and 1st for saves. Despite playing in 3 less games, he still saw 58 more shots than the next goalie.

In 92 he was still first in saves and 4th in sv%. Not in the top 5 for GAA and I don't care enough to search somewhere else. He saw 142 shots more than the next closest goalie.

Implying that the team in front of him actually helped his stats is completely ridiculous. The context is that he was playing behind a pure run and gun offense.
Implying that any Patrick-era team had a defense...

Barrasso is one of the biggest reasons why the early 90s teams won two Cups while the mid-90s teams won none. Kenny Wregget was my favorite player growing up (I was a goalie and Barrasso wasn't exactly a role model), but nobody is winning a Stanley Cup behind Kenny Wregget as their starter. Barrasso's injuries just mounted up too high and he wasn't able to be the goalie he was earlier. Like him or hate his guts, the guy was a damn good goalie for the era he played in. He was our Grant Fuhr. He made the saves he had to make and played some of his best hockey in the most important games. You can say the same of Fleury in 2008 and 2009, but Barrasso did it longer and more consistently. I hope Fleury will take that title from Barrasso some day, but he hasn't yet.

And comparing goaltending stats from the 80s/early 90s to modern day is almost insulting. I think it's safe to say Rob Brown isn't scoring 115 points in 68 games in today's NHL, so why are we comparing GAAs?

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12-03-2012, 02:25 AM
  #41
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The problem I have with the people saying Fleury is that Fleury has been objectively bad.
He really only has one good season - the first cup run when he had a .921 save percentage in the regular season followed by .933 in the playoffs. Aside from that - stats - Fleury's are bad.
He's had the benefit of tons of talent at Center and on the blue-line and a puck possession gameplan for most of his career that has limited opportunities against him but he still finds a way to give up goals.

But I think the most damaging aspect of his game is his total derpitude when it comes to playing the puck.

The only thing I'm willing to give him is the shootouts. He's money in the shootouts. That might be the least valuable goaltender skill in all of hockey but it's the one thing that Fleury excels at.

I'm even going to say that I'd take Lalime, Wregget and Hedberg over him. I don't remember too much about their respective games anymore but I know that I had more confidence with them in the net than I do with Fleury. Fleury seriously needs to go. He's paid too much for this and I lay a lot of the blame on him for the last three years of playoff failures.

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12-03-2012, 03:13 AM
  #42
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I'm even going to say that I'd take Lalime, Wregget and Hedberg over him. I don't remember too much about their respective games anymore but I know that I had more confidence with them in the net than I do with Fleury. Fleury seriously needs to go. He's paid too much for this and I lay a lot of the blame on him for the last three years of playoff failures.
Well...I'd say bunk on all three. If the issue is confidence then only Wregget played a consistent game, and his game was consistently average. Lalime played too brief a time in Pittsburgh to really count, but once the book was opened on him he went from unbeatable to very beatable. He was a league average starter on a good team for a while, but when the going got tough he never really stepped up, so even factoring in his non-Penguins time I can't take him seriously. It's no surprise his career went in the toilet after the lockout (though 4 wins in 31 games was a bit severe).

Hedberg...love the man. He may be the most neurotic goalie I've ever seen. That has worked to his advantage many times...when he gets in a zone he is just unbeatable, but when you get in the head of a neurotic goalie then he's swiss cheese. Hedberg had some very unfavorable situations as a starter in his career after that 2002 run, which was pure magic, namely in that the 2001-02 Penguins bore little resemblance to the one that he dragged to the 2001 Eastern Conference Finals, the 2002-03 squad was even worse, and then he got a reprieve by being traded to a solid Vancouver squad...where Marc Crawford refused to start him over the known-awful Cloutier.

There's a line that's too easy to pass here...the line between Fleury being an awful goalie along for the ride and Fleury being a good goalie who has faltered at times. Fleury is far from a great goalie...but we do lose scope too often. Stats don't tell a flattering story, but no goalie is likely to have great stats in the same time frame. Even when the defense has been good in his time here (which has been rare), it has been the type of system that leads to many odd-man rushes. There isn't a good stat that tracks the stuff, but Fleury has had to face an above average shot difficulty percentage in his career just because of the personal and system the Penguins have run out there in his career. Regardless, he was golden in 2007-08 and played two of the best games of his career in Game 6 & 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals...he gets much respect from me for that. He just hasn't been able to do so with any sort of consistency. I have no doubt he's going to set every goaltending record for the team, but he hasn't been the goalie that he was in the 2009 Finals for a while. I still want to believe in him, but he has a lot to prove. Until he does so Barrasso's track record speaks for itself.

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12-03-2012, 08:19 AM
  #43
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while everyone has good points. One thing I'd like to add is that the system that Fleury plays behind is one that will kill stats. The penguins system is setup such that the # of shots might be lower, but Fleury will see a much higher number of grade A scoring chances against then most goalies.

A defensive hockey team is one where the types of shots the goalie sees are mostly lower % shots. Not back door 1-timers, or guys all alone 6 feet from the goalie. I don't care who you put in net, the way we played as a team last playoff series the result would be the same. That first goal in OT where our Norris level defensemen tips the puck away from the goalie, over by our Selke candidate Center who just watches the other team's player tap it in the open net.

we are not a very good defensive team we have talent, but have some serious lapses. (insert argument of whether it's personal or system)

When Mario was in his prime, we played in the other end so much that was our defense, a good offense. who was getting the puck away from him when he didn't want them too?

That said, Fleury was horrible last playoff series. Before Fleury's wobble at the end of the season (which I think was because of a combo of him playing too much due to Jonnie falling apart and Crosby's return mucked the chemistry up) he was having a pretty good season going.

I think a new Goalie coach has to come in. Fleury is in prime years now, compared to his peers in the NHL today his talent level is right at the top, he just needs to get his head screwed back on straight.

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12-03-2012, 08:54 AM
  #44
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Fleury is absolutely in a better situation defensively than Barrasso. At least when comparing stats.

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12-03-2012, 10:12 AM
  #45
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while everyone has good points. One thing I'd like to add is that the system that Fleury plays behind is one that will kill stats. The penguins system is setup such that the # of shots might be lower, but Fleury will see a much higher number of grade A scoring chances against then most goalies.
I just don't buy this. I have yet to see proof for this. In fact, there was acutally an article on this where this myth was shown to be untrue. Not only did most goalies make more saves, they also made more difficult saves.

But, our defensiv system also sucks and needs to be changed.

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12-03-2012, 11:29 AM
  #46
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I just don't buy this. I have yet to see proof for this. In fact, there was acutally an article on this where this myth was shown to be untrue. Not only did most goalies make more saves, they also made more difficult saves.

But, our defensiv system also sucks and needs to be changed.
I read that article too.

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12-03-2012, 11:38 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
while everyone has good points. One thing I'd like to add is that the system that Fleury plays behind is one that will kill stats. The penguins system is setup such that the # of shots might be lower, but Fleury will see a much higher number of grade A scoring chances against then most goalies.

A defensive hockey team is one where the types of shots the goalie sees are mostly lower % shots. Not back door 1-timers, or guys all alone 6 feet from the goalie. I don't care who you put in net, the way we played as a team last playoff series the result would be the same. That first goal in OT where our Norris level defensemen tips the puck away from the goalie, over by our Selke candidate Center who just watches the other team's player tap it in the open net.

we are not a very good defensive team we have talent, but have some serious lapses. (insert argument of whether it's personal or system)

When Mario was in his prime, we played in the other end so much that was our defense, a good offense. who was getting the puck away from him when he didn't want them too?

That said, Fleury was horrible last playoff series. Before Fleury's wobble at the end of the season (which I think was because of a combo of him playing too much due to Jonnie falling apart and Crosby's return mucked the chemistry up) he was having a pretty good season going.

I think a new Goalie coach has to come in. Fleury is in prime years now, compared to his peers in the NHL today his talent level is right at the top, he just needs to get his head screwed back on straight.
MAF career stats are average to below average no matter how you look at it. The system that is placed in front of him is placed "on purpose" as to limit the Pen's exposure to his weakness....saving the puck. His stats are earned....played behind many different defenders and from 2 different coaches. I do not see a huge difference in "era" from looking at his career stats.

His save % is low because he lets soft goals in (wristers top glove) and has poor rebound control (which leads to high % rebound shots). It will be nice to see what one of the best rebound control goalies (TV) can do behind the Pens. TV is a known commodity of an above average goal tender (used to be elite). If MAF can out-perform him..great. I have my doubts.

This isn't specifically targeted to you but others:
Please stop the nonsense about "critical" saves, or making saves when he "has to". Aren't they all equally important? Does it matter which 3-4 shots a goaltender lets in? The results are the same. I know when I used to play, I got more pissed off and bummed when my goaltender let in a softy compared to how pumped I got when he made a great save he shouldn't have. They are all equally important.

New goalie coach is about the last option prior to moving on. Meloche must be in with ML to still have a job.

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12-03-2012, 11:41 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
I just don't buy this. I have yet to see proof for this. In fact, there was acutally an article on this where this myth was shown to be untrue. Not only did most goalies make more saves, they also made more difficult saves.

But, our defensiv system also sucks and needs to be changed.
There is no proof to it, either. We played a very strong defensive game for the majority of Fleury's career. Until DB switched it to zone, it was actually benefiting Fleury. Just because we shut down shots doesn't mean we are giving them better chances. That's just not how that stat works.

Under MT, we didn't shoot a lot and focused on 3 on 3 in the defensive zone. We were sound defensively. Under DB, we were even more sound defensively but explosive and simple on the offensive side. It wasn't until we won the Cup that everything, for whatever reason, changed.

Aggression is still the name of the game. Any team that sits back, will inevitably lose. If you look at the notorious "trappers" in NJ, they were playing the furthest thing from the trap in the playoffs. They were ultra aggressive and took it to teams. They scored in transition w/ not a whole lot of insane talent. It was simple hockey. They also attacked the opposition in the defensive end. That's how you create turnovers and go the other way. The Pens, right now, are just too passive. Covering zone after zone and never attacking and getting the puck out. So far, it's DB's biggest mistake.

edit: wgknestrick makes a good point about rebound control. #29 has had some piss-poor rebound control in his career. That does lead to trouble. The top goalies eat the puck up with every shot they take. No second chances. Teams feel they need to shoot more and more.

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12-03-2012, 01:20 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
This isn't specifically targeted to you but others:
Please stop the nonsense about "critical" saves, or making saves when he "has to". Aren't they all equally important? Does it matter which 3-4 shots a goaltender lets in? The results are the same. I know when I used to play, I got more pissed off and bummed when my goaltender let in a softy compared to how pumped I got when he made a great save he shouldn't have. They are all equally important.

New goalie coach is about the last option prior to moving on. Meloche must be in with ML to still have a job.
When I played, it was more important to me that my goalie shut the door in the third. If he was going to let in a soft goal or three, I wanted that to come early on.

There were also a number of times my teams won 2-1, 1-0 because our goalies made the saves when we needed them. Not every game is a three to four goal game and even those games require a winning goalie to make the saves at the right time. That is the difference between a money goalie and a good goalie. Some guys can't handle that pressure, other guys like Barrasso, rose to the occasion.

If you played the game, you surely know what a back breaker goal is. So saying it is nonsense about goalies making saves when they need to, is ********.

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12-03-2012, 02:36 PM
  #50
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Relative to the style of play in the league and the skill of their goaltending counterparts, I give the edge to Tommy. Mr Jiffyfly is right when he talks about him being a "money" goalie.

That said, one brilliant statistical season or a sizable contribution to a Cup winner by Fleury puts them on equal footing, IMO. Because, although Barasso was money for a long while, he also, near the end of his tenure, let up a fair share of heartbreakers, if I remember correctly.

As easy as it is to cut Tommy slack for the wide-open style of the 1990s Penguins, let's not forget that when Bylsma's system is exploited, we're left crossing our fingers that the goalie will make a big save on the breakaway.

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