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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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12-02-2012, 12:13 AM
  #251
Riptide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Killion, if you're hiding financial numbers from the players, those numbers won't come out in the audit either.

The other possibility is that the NHLPA looked at the books for the 6-12 teams, found that the teams were making more profit than the NHL was letting on, but can't talk about it due to non-disclosure agreements.
If that was the case, someone would have leaked it. There's 700 players, and the NHL did hand over 72,000 pages of financials. You have to think that out of those 700 players, if someone was wrong, or the NHL wasn't in bad shape, one of those players would be speaking to the media with the promise of anonymity. That's not something that could be kept a secret.

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Originally Posted by M A K A V E L I View Post
That doesn't matter. The lockout isn't about fringe NHL players. It's being driven by the middle to top tier earners on the player side and the hardliner scrooges on the owner side. Everyone else doesn't really have a voice.
I'm not so sure about that - at least on the owners side. There's too much money involved for these guys to be listening to only a few of the owners - unless they absolutely believe they can get the PA to give in to something specific.

What disappoints me is that the PA's last offer should have been something the NHL could have negotiated off of (or at least on the financials - the ~200m or so separation). The 20% cap is likely too large (over 30m after 5-6 years), and the PA's buyout rules blow, as does their stipulation that their long term contract rule only applies going forward (really must be retroactive). However those are things these guys should be able to negotiate to their liking.

NHL gives on contractual issues, but gets a rule about players retiring before their contracts are up (and how the cap hit applies). Buyouts, arbitration, FA and ELC's remain the same as today. Cap drops to 50% + ~300m that the owners pay out over 3 years. Not sure how I'd address the cap ceiling (if its % based or $ based).

But this shouldn't be the show stopper that it seems to be.

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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Apparently this lockout is killing downtown St. Paul! Good job NHL! Putting even more people out of work!
If the players just signed one of the many offers the NHL's proposed, they'd be playing tomorrow... there's two parties, and the blame is on both for not coming to an agreement.

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12-02-2012, 12:16 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
If the players just signed one of the many offers the NHL's proposed, they'd be playing tomorrow... there's two parties, and the blame is on both for not coming to an agreement.
Are the players not part of the NHL?

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12-02-2012, 12:22 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
If that was the case, someone would have leaked it. There's 700 players, and the NHL did hand over 72,000 pages of financials. You have to think that out of those 700 players, if someone was wrong, or the NHL wasn't in bad shape, one of those players would be speaking to the media with the promise of anonymity. That's not something that could be kept a secret.
I think he's implying that the teams have two sets of books, mafia style, and are defrauding the players and the league by withholding income from them. Not that the player salaries reported are incorrect.

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12-02-2012, 12:24 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Let me, just as a wild stab in dark, introduce the other other possibility, that the numbers NHLPA got were legit and supported the loss claims of the teams.
I firmly believe this to be the case - which is why the PA hasn't said boo about it. However I also don't think there's enough teams who are really losing for the NHL to make an issue out of it either without the PA coming out (or via leaking something) about how well most of the other teams are doing, and the more RS would solve all their issues.

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12-02-2012, 12:29 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I firmly believe this to be the case - which is why the PA hasn't said boo about it. However I also don't think there's enough teams who are really losing for the NHL to make an issue out of it either without the PA coming out (or via leaking something) about how well most of the other teams are doing, and the more RS would solve all their issues.
I think this CBA will fail to address some of the things that are broken in the system simply because there isn't enough support among the owners and NHLPA.

Seeing how hard it is to agree on a CBA that avoids reforming the cap system into a more sustainable one, it's probably a good idea to leave the bigger problems to future generations.

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12-02-2012, 12:36 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
If that was the case, someone would have leaked it. There's 700 players, and the NHL did hand over 72,000 pages of financials.
Not really, no, I wouldnt expect any of it to be leaked. Non-disclosure. Itemized accounts and all of the minutae far too involving & complex for anyone but a CPA to even begin to grasp.... whats missing? Are they complete? Without a team of Forensic Accountants armed with Search Warrants descending on any given teams offices along with whatever other satellite stations in the various states or provinces they operate, well, good luck with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think he's implying that the teams have two sets of books, mafia style, and are defrauding the players and the league by withholding income from them. Not that the player salaries reported are incorrect.
I have no reason to believe much of anything that the NHL tells us with respect to the health of its franchises. Very sorry track record in that regard. From false announced sale prices to Phoenix being in absolutely no trouble whatsoever just weeks before Moyes marched into court & declared Bankruptcy, while a great many number of the teams who are purportedly in trouble & recipients of RS are in fact getting it coming, going, sideways, upside down & backwards.

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12-02-2012, 12:50 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I have no reason to believe much of anything that the NHL tells us with respect to the health of its franchises. Very sorry track record in that regard. From false announced sale prices to Phoenix being in absolutely no trouble whatsoever just weeks before Moyes marched into court & declared Bankruptcy, while a great many number of the teams who are purportedly in trouble & recipients of RS are in fact getting it coming, going, sideways, upside down & backwards.
As far as I know NHLPA has not in any way challenged the financial documentation from the league and teams. Considering how toxic this whole process has been Fehr would have trumpeted out any objections if there were any.

Wild speculation without any substance might be fun, but it's rather pointless.

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12-02-2012, 12:54 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The contract issues will also help the small market teams.
The small market teams simply need a lot more money. It can't just come from the Maple Leafs sharing all of it's money. That's nuts.

If all the teams were making millions, I would understand the players position better.
But half of the teams are losing money.

I think the millionaire players simply taking a smaller piece (while still being millionaires) is a MUCH better solution than contraction, moving a whole bunch of teams in a gamble, or half the teams continuing to bleed money.
The rich owners are already doing their part, by sharing HUNDREDS of millions of dollars with the small markets.
The players are simply too greedy to try and fix things in their "partnership".

The nhl is not a non profit charity created by billionaires to help the 'poor struggling' middle class hockey players become millionaires.
Killion has read my posts. My suggestion stems from a more detailed post of turning the previous CBA on its head with a guaranteed leaguewide profit percentage for owners of 5-7%, the players get the remainder of revenues after expenses and owners profit are deducted. Individual teams might make more or less than the 5-7%, but the league as a whole would be held accountable for folding teams. To enable such a system the owners would have to open the books to guarantee against shenanigans.

And I don't know of any major business sale that doesn't have a precursor of a full examination of the books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
While I agree the players need to withdraw from 57% to actually less than 50%, I didnt read into SJ's post ('s) that he in anyway suggests that that too wouldnt be a requirement in order to stem the bleeding, strengthening the weaker links in the chain. Increased RS WITH a drop in the players share, combined with the checks & balances he's suggesting not only practicable, but logically, about the only way the two parties will ever reach an accord. Transparency. Integrity.
Love the descriptors, my point exactly. To add, I figure the 76k pages were expenses as well as income, but they have only had the rights to audit revenues sans expenses granted by the previous CBA.

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12-02-2012, 05:13 AM
  #259
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I'm willing to entertain 'cooked books' but it doesn't follow from the actions of the parties involved.

Most NHL teams are making a profit, yet locking out the players for a marginal share value is giving up any chance at that profit...no, that doesn't make sense.

For example, in the NBA lockout the NBPA didn't try to challenge the fact that the teams were losing money - it was about HOW much money. Even the leaked Deadspin financials on the Nets and Hornets, after being pored over by economists at ESPN who seemed dead-set on exposing 'accounting tricks', only served to confirm that the teams had large cash losses - and that even without stuff like player depreciation the teams were losing in the tens of millions of dollars. Of course, the teams claimed $30-40M but that's besides the point.

We can dispute the Forbes numbers etc, but as they say actions are louder than words. Besides, we're on an internet message board. All we really do is speculate. It's fun. And there are a lot of first-approximations in the world that do a fine job of explaining complex situations.

This whole 'union-breaking' business doesn't fly with me either. I mean, they are going about it in the least efficient way possible. If I was trying to break the NHLPA, there's no way I would offer to pay out the face value of contracts or increase revenue sharing. It'd just be the hammer, my way or the highway. And why be tentative about giving up concessions if you knew you were just going to shut it down for 1-2 seasons?

I think the main problem I have with the situation is that at least from the owner's side I can argue things with numbers. Sadly, I can't do that for the NHLPA, and the utility of their 'idealistic' stances is questionable at best.

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12-02-2012, 05:37 AM
  #260
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P.S. Well of course the NHLPA did not invoke their right to audit teams during the course of the CBA, with the exception of the public subsidies of Phoenix and Nashville - those subsidies were public knowledge and there was a guaranteed 'return' on the audit.

Quote:
(g) Additional Audit Rights of NHL and NHLPA. Both the NHL and
NHLPA reserve the right to independently engage additional independent auditors, at
their own individual expense,
to separately advise each organization on matters relating
to the above-described process. The independent auditors separately engaged by the
I mean it is fine and good to throw around this auditing idea all the time and complete transparency - but who is going to pay for it? You have to think that this would cost in the millions of dollars for the number of teams you'd have to do - and on a yearly basis.

From the NHLPA standpoint, the HRR accounting is already verified by independent accountants - why spend the extra money? Again, the NSH/WSH/PHX situations were freely known facts. If the NHLPA really believed that the teams were hiding money - and that money was signifciant enough to justify the audit cost, then they would have built their case already.

Remember, the TOTAL subsidy from the THREE teams that the NHLPA had added to the 2011 HRR total was $20M. So if we keep our tinfoil hats on, wouldn't a far-reaching and systemic concealment of revenue far exceed $20M? That would more than justify the continued and frequent audit cost for the NHLPA.

The fact that the NHLPA has not ONCE exercised their auditing rights beyond the 2011 public subsidy dispute, and the fact that there has been no NHLPA claims on the financial status of the teams (there was plenty of finger-pointing over team bottom-lines in the NBA lockout) to me is a pretty solid indication that as far as the NHLPA is concerned the NHL is telling the truth.

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12-02-2012, 06:28 AM
  #261
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It's really simple, if the majority of teams were making money. The NHL would be playing already.

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12-02-2012, 07:17 AM
  #262
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Let the fans decide.
Each side gets a guaranteed 45% of the HRR, with the final 10% being decided at the end of the year by a vote from the fans. Let's say out of 10,000 votes, the PA gets 3,000. Therefore, they would receive 48%, and the owners would get 52%. If they think they are winning the PR battle let them prove it.

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12-02-2012, 08:11 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
It's really simple, if the majority of teams were making money. The NHL would be playing already.
Not if the owners thought they would make more money by locking out the players.

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12-02-2012, 08:23 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by shmglsky View Post
Not if the owners thought they would make more money by locking out the players.
So instead of making money they risk it for marginal increase and make nothing like currently.

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12-02-2012, 10:21 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
So instead of making money they risk it for marginal increase and make nothing like currently.
Didn't both the NFL and NBA do just that?

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12-02-2012, 10:21 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
So instead of making money they risk it for marginal increase and make nothing like currently.
The PA seems willing to do it.

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12-02-2012, 10:36 AM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Seeing how hard it is to agree on a CBA that avoids reforming the cap system into a more sustainable one, it's probably a good idea to leave the bigger problems to future generations.
They should just pass the buck on down the line huh?
Let the systemic problems fester & grow. Right on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Wild speculation without any substance might be fun, but it's rather pointless.
I wish it was just "Wild speculation" Freud. Unfortunately, what we have here in the NHL is a history of arrogance, a nasty vein of truculence when it comes to telling the truth. Falsified numbers, a shell game of massive proportions, duplicity & intransigence. Far from being "wild", one has to employ modest common sense boundaries when "speculating", follow the money, keep your eye on the puck. Sourcing multiple pools of information and even then, never exactly certain when one departs from the realm of reality into a confusing, completely artificial & made up World of fictions.

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12-02-2012, 10:42 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
So instead of making money they risk it for marginal increase and make nothing like currently.
Remember, the NHL believes they have the "greatest fans."

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12-02-2012, 11:07 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Didn't both the NFL and NBA do just that?
I note the NFL didn't miss any games. When they approached the deadline of losing games both sides cut a deal.

The NBA had [has] a lot of similarities to the NHL situation--many teams losing money or breaking even at best.

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12-02-2012, 11:46 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I wish it was just "Wild speculation" Freud. Unfortunately, what we have here in the NHL is a history of arrogance, a nasty vein of truculence when it comes to telling the truth. Falsified numbers, a shell game of massive proportions, duplicity & intransigence. Far from being "wild", one has to employ modest common sense boundaries when "speculating", follow the money, keep your eye on the puck. Sourcing multiple pools of information and even then, never exactly certain when one departs from the realm of reality into a confusing, completely artificial & made up World of fictions.
If you have any source that NHL teams are committing accounting fraud, feel free to provide it.

A hunch on your part, you connecting the dots and a general "the truth is out there" feelings aren't that interesting to me. I need a bit more to discuss criminal activity as if it is happening.

And just to head this one off before the canyon. Yes, I have googled and no I can't find anything supporting your accusations.

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12-02-2012, 11:48 AM
  #271
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mirtle 9:39am via UberSocial for BlackBerry From @NYP_Brooksie: "In more than three decades working w/ MLBPA, not once was Fehr accused of acting unethically in collective bargaining."

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12-02-2012, 12:01 PM
  #272
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mirtle 9:39am via UberSocial for BlackBerry From @NYP_Brooksie: "In more than three decades working w/ MLBPA, not once was Fehr accused of acting unethically in collective bargaining."
I'm not sure what I would call striking before a world series.....

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12-02-2012, 12:04 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
A hunch on your part, you connecting the dots and a general "the truth is out there" feelings aren't that interesting to me. I need a bit more to discuss criminal activity as if it is happening.
... No worries. And quite unabashedly, I do love a good Conspiracy Theory provided its based on fact. That you cant find any evidence that proves corruption & malfeasance is hardly surprising, and to then suggest that its quite likely Im dwelling in a land of the ethereal is your prerogative. I take no offence.... damn shame your receivers not picking up on the signals from the Andromeda Galaxy though. Your missing out on all the fun.

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12-02-2012, 12:06 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
It's really simple, if the majority of teams were making money. The NHL would be playing already.
Nope.

Bettman and the owners would rather cook the books, lose a season and kill HRR over a 7% change.

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12-02-2012, 12:10 PM
  #275
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Quote:
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I'm not sure what I would call striking before a world series.....
That's plenty ethical.

I'd call it opportunistic.

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