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Messier vs. Esposito

View Poll Results: Esposito vs. Messier
Messier 62 51.24%
Esposito 59 48.76%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-30-2012, 10:41 PM
  #151
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Maybe, maybe not, we saw waht Orr did, in a very small sample in Chicago and Phils large sample outside of Boston.

Everyone here should take a very close look at how horrible that Black Hawk roster was without Orr in it.

I'm not sure if there has ever been more evidence to suggest that one player benefited from another except maybe Charlie Simmer.
That has to be a new low for shortchanging Esposito here. I mean, Simmer? Come on now. Nothing against Simmer but to even take a prime vs. prime comparison with Esposito and it isn't even close.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What does 1968 still have to do with this? I already removed it for you since you think it is misleading.

As for the other years that we left, it is true that there is only one season with a good sample of games without Orr, but together those small samples make a Significant and meaningful one. Not acknowledging this is the mistake you're making here.
Well, really let's look at it. 1969 he is projected to have a 115 point year had Orr never played. 1972 he played 2 games without Orr. Are we really going to nickel and dime this one? 1973 he scored 24 points in 15 games without Orr giving him about 125 on the year as opposed to 130. In 1974 he plays 4 games without Orr and gets 5 points, but again, 4 games? In 1975-'76 he plays 12 games with 16 points before getting traded without Orr. He was on the decline at this time regardless and still would have had a 100+ point season but instead gets 83 on the NYR. When you look at it this way it really doesn't hurt Esposito at all.

Let's look at it this way. Sidney Crosby had a 5 game POINTLESS streak in early 2009-'10 when Malkin missed some time. Then he had an assist in the 6th game. The game after that Malkin returned and he immediately got 3 points. Now, to judge that sample size would say that Crosby relies heavily on Malkin. Nothing Esposito ever showed could be as worse as what Crosby did in that time, but we know Crosby, just like most of us know Esposito, and he was just going through a slump at that time and still led the NHL in goals that season tying Stamkos. The same is applied with Esposito. He did enough on his own. The guy is still a serial Art Ross winner - still by big margins - without Orr. Are they less margins? Yeah, a bit, but who cares? The fact that you or no one else on here has been able to even name one player that beyond a shadow of a doubt steals an Art Ross from him is proof enough.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Beliveau had alot of off years throughout his career, your making it seem like he has bourque/howe level longevity, not even close. Also, no his 1956 season isnt close to what espo accomplished in 1971 and 1974 based on raw value, thats his only art ross anyways. Espo has 5 and he won them all by big margins. Espo's run from 1971 to 1974 is Lemieux-esque based on adjusted and raw numbers, far better than what hull and beliveau were doing.

We don't rate yzerman/sakic above lafluer or bossy, despite them absolutely torching Lafluer and Bossy in longevity, yet hull and beliveau are getting the edge for durability when its really non-existant?
I guess I take all of 1956. His postseason too which was unreal. This is neither here nor there on this issue. Beliveau just controlled the tempo of the game. He is really closer to Lemieux in many ways than Esposito.

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11-30-2012, 11:53 PM
  #152
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Okay simmer wasn't the best example, just was off the top of my head and another "big, late bloomer" that was mostly a finisher.

Reggie Leach to Bobby Clarke is probably more appropriate

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12-01-2012, 10:23 AM
  #153
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Okay simmer wasn't the best example, just was off the top of my head and another "big, late bloomer" that was mostly a finisher.

Reggie Leach to Bobby Clarke is probably more appropriate
That might even be worse. Look at Simmer's stats before teaming up with Dionne on the Kings. Maybe he was a late bloomer but at the same time you can't compare Simmer pre-Dionne to Esposito pre-Orr. At least Esposito was a top 10 scorer as a young Hawk and then nearly won the Art Ross in 1968 with a wounded Orr. Simmer became a better player and didn't do too shabby even after Dionne but before..............

Leach is another weird one don't you think? He had 91 points with Clarke and never more than 78 even with him again. Had that big 61 goal season with Clarke and Barber but he had big gaps in his career (probably caused by his alcoholism) and Esposito didn't.

I don't think you are appreciating the rare individual talent that Esposito was if you are dropping him down to those notches.

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12-01-2012, 11:12 AM
  #154
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Anyone watch that Summit Series thing from back in the day?

I don't recall Orr playing in that little tourney.

But I do recall Espo leading the Series in scoring and clearly being the most dominant player in the series.

Those guys from Russia were pretty good competition too.

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12-01-2012, 11:14 AM
  #155
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but remember, Messier player with Anderson most of his Oiler career once he moved to center...he never really had "help" from Gretzky unless he was on the PP with him, and it seemed to me that there were 2 different PP at the time....the Gretz/Kurri one and the Mess/Anderson one. i'm a total Espo fan, but he really was a goal suck, didn't have Messier's speed. but Espo was a better goal scorer and point producer though, and like Messier, was a huge contributing factor for the cups their teams won.
Messier at center in Edmonton averaged 70 GP, 34-64-98 per season, and 40-75-115 per 82. Anderson averaged 34-42-76 per season and 36-45-81 per-82 (during Messier years). He also had Jari Kurri for two years (77 GP, 39-59-88 and 42-63-105 with Messier, and was better than Messier many years during Kurri's prime in the mid-80s). Messier's linemates weren't exactly weak; go look up what most centers had to work with from 85-86 through 90-91.

True, Esposito had some pretty strong linemates himself. And arguing that Hodge and Bucyk were anywhere near as close to Esposito as Anderson and Kurri were to Messier (Kurri was Edmonton's best forward in both ends in 88-89) is a farce.

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12-01-2012, 11:18 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Messier at center in Edmonton averaged 70 GP, 34-64-98 per season, and 40-75-115 per 82. Anderson averaged 34-42-76 per season and 36-45-81 per-82 (during Messier years). He also had Jari Kurri for two years (77 GP, 39-59-88 and 42-63-105 with Messier, and was better than Messier many years during Kurri's prime in the mid-80s). Messier's linemates weren't exactly weak; go look up what most centers had to work with from 85-86 through 90-91.

True, Esposito had some pretty strong linemates himself. And arguing that Hodge and Bucyk were anywhere near as close to Esposito as Anderson and Kurri were to Messier (Kurri was Edmonton's best forward in both ends in 88-89) is a farce.
Espo played with Hodge & Cashman. Bucyk played with Stanfield and McKenzie.

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12-01-2012, 11:53 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Anyone watch that Summit Series thing from back in the day?

I don't recall Orr playing in that little tourney.

But I do recall Espo leading the Series in scoring and clearly being the most dominant player in the series.

Those guys from Russia were pretty good competition too.
You would think a high stakes tournament with everything to lose would have people take notice since Esposito dominated it, but for some reason that's gotten glossed over a lot.

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12-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Espo played with Hodge & Cashman. Bucyk played with Stanfield and McKenzie.
I thought Bucyk had some time with Espo as well, in much the same way Anderson had some time with both Gretzky and Messier, or Ciccarelli (as a Wing) had time with Yzerman and Fedorov?

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12-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Anyone watch that Summit Series thing from back in the day?

I don't recall Orr playing in that little tourney.

But I do recall Espo leading the Series in scoring and clearly being the most dominant player in the series.

Those guys from Russia were pretty good competition too.
Exactly.

Without Orr, Esposito was the best player in the world.

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12-01-2012, 01:54 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Anyone watch that Summit Series thing from back in the day?

I don't recall Orr playing in that little tourney.

But I do recall Espo leading the Series in scoring and clearly being the most dominant player in the series.

Those guys from Russia were pretty good competition too.
Yeah, I will be the first to agree that both he and Orr were better playing together than apart.. but Espo is seriously getting shortchanged in this thread.

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12-01-2012, 02:55 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I thought Bucyk had some time with Espo as well, in much the same way Anderson had some time with both Gretzky and Messier, or Ciccarelli (as a Wing) had time with Yzerman and Fedorov?
Bucyk would replace Cashman on the Power Play.

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12-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You would think a high stakes tournament with everything to lose would have people take notice since Esposito dominated it, but for some reason that's gotten glossed over a lot.
He deserves credit, but for players who played most/all of their career in the NHL, it's their NHL performance that really determines their value and ranking. That doesn't mean international play, and play in foreign/rival leagues (whether Europe or WHA) should be completely ignored, but it's like the icing on the cake. It rounds off the rough edges and may solidify the player's career into a prettier picture, but it's not the foundation for a career evaluation unless necessary. It definitely helps his case, just as it helps balance Selanne's more mediocre playoff production.

I admit it is getting a bit absurd when Espo is compared to players like Leach or Simmer (esp. there actual careers, not "what could have been"). Even if I gave him almost no credit for international play, discount his production substantially due to his team and era, etc. (basically never give him the benefit of the doubt), I think the lower bound would be somewhere around the level of players like Dionne, Stastny, Brett Hull, Selanne, etc. His solid playoff and international production helps put him above those players, while his durability & longevity gives him some ammunition against other players who may have been better.

There's just so much uncertainty as to his rightful place in the rankings, and people differ in their opinions and methods of evaluation. If Scotty Bowman ranks him as the 40th best Canadian hockey player, behind Gainey, Perreault, and Lemaire... then there's seems to be a rather wide range possible.

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12-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Well, really let's look at it. 1969 he is projected to have a 115 point year had Orr never played. 1972 he played 2 games without Orr. Are we really going to nickel and dime this one? 1973 he scored 24 points in 15 games without Orr giving him about 125 on the year as opposed to 130. In 1974 he plays 4 games without Orr and gets 5 points, but again, 4 games? In 1975-'76 he plays 12 games with 16 points before getting traded without Orr. He was on the decline at this time regardless and still would have had a 100+ point season but instead gets 83 on the NYR. When you look at it this way it really doesn't hurt Esposito at all.

Let's look at it this way. Sidney Crosby had a 5 game POINTLESS streak in early 2009-'10 when Malkin missed some time. Then he had an assist in the 6th game. The game after that Malkin returned and he immediately got 3 points. Now, to judge that sample size would say that Crosby relies heavily on Malkin. Nothing Esposito ever showed could be as worse as what Crosby did in that time, but we know Crosby, just like most of us know Esposito, and he was just going through a slump at that time and still led the NHL in goals that season tying Stamkos. The same is applied with Esposito. He did enough on his own. The guy is still a serial Art Ross winner - still by big margins - without Orr. Are they less margins? Yeah, a bit, but who cares? The fact that you or no one else on here has been able to even name one player that beyond a shadow of a doubt steals an Art Ross from him is proof enough.
Again, you are compartmentalizing this into single seasons for some reason, and when you do that it makes it look like nickel and diming, but over the long haul it does look very clear that he produced less without Orr - which shouldn't surprise you at all! When you fight this idea so hard, it removes any semblance of impartiality.

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12-01-2012, 03:12 PM
  #164
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I think the lower bound would be somewhere around the level of players like Dionne, Stastny, Brett Hull, Selanne, etc
.
Agree. However, the way some people talk in here, you'd think his status as a top 100 player was being threatened. Not even close.

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12-01-2012, 04:25 PM
  #165
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I have to go with Esposito but I wouldn't put Messier more than one spot behind him in the all-time centre rankings. The Summit series is a definite factor for me. I never saw Messier come close to dominating in best on best play. I'm also more of a peak than longevity guy.

When it comes to sheer "presence" I also give the edge to Espo. Both played for teams I hated but Esposito just seemed to scare me more. Having said that I find that both of these players have been unjustly downgraded on this board. Both belong on any list of the top ten centres ever.

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12-01-2012, 04:54 PM
  #166
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I have to go with Esposito but I wouldn't put Messier more than one spot behind him in the all-time centre rankings. The Summit series is a definite factor for me. I never saw Messier come close to dominating in best on best play. I'm also more of a peak than longevity guy.

When it comes to sheer "presence" I also give the edge to Espo. Both played for teams I hated but Esposito just seemed to scare me more. Having said that I find that both of these players have been unjustly downgraded on this board. Both belong on any list of the top ten centres ever.
I'm pretty sure a good majority of the regular posters here in the HOH section do have both of these guys in the top 10 centers ever. Definitely was the case back in 2009 during the Top 100 player project.

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12-02-2012, 01:12 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
That might even be worse. Look at Simmer's stats before teaming up with Dionne on the Kings. Maybe he was a late bloomer but at the same time you can't compare Simmer pre-Dionne to Esposito pre-Orr. At least Esposito was a top 10 scorer as a young Hawk and then nearly won the Art Ross in 1968 with a wounded Orr. Simmer became a better player and didn't do too shabby even after Dionne but before..............

Leach is another weird one don't you think? He had 91 points with Clarke and never more than 78 even with him again. Had that big 61 goal season with Clarke and Barber but he had big gaps in his career (probably caused by his alcoholism) and Esposito didn't.

I don't think you are appreciating the rare individual talent that Esposito was if you are dropping him down to those notches.
I'm not saying that Phil was on the same tier as Simmer or Leach as players but rather talking about the relationship all 3 had to the stars they played with.

In all 3 cases there is a clear driver of the bus and a passenger who benefited, of course none of them took the advantage as great as Phil did but it also was in different times and circumstances for all 3 players.

Also you call Phil a rare talent, which may or may not be true but one of the most important measurements I take in a player is consistency and the length of that consistency (along with a host of other factors).

Phil's dramatic and late career arc, and the direct correlation to playing with Orr in his high peak, compared to the rest of his career is a huge red flag to his "greatness factor."

I'm not sure where he is going to place on my all time center list when we do that project but Bowman has him as his 17th best center (on albeit it a really weird list overall IMO) and while I don't agree with all of the guys ahead of him as a lock that range is where Phil fits for me as of right now.

The Moose is definitely ahead of Phil for me.

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12-02-2012, 01:22 AM
  #168
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You would think a high stakes tournament with everything to lose would have people take notice since Esposito dominated it, but for some reason that's gotten glossed over a lot.
No it doesn't get glossed over but it's still 1 tournament.

Sundin played exceptionally well in 6 best on best tournaments and that doesn't seem to help him very much in the rankings.

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12-02-2012, 12:46 PM
  #169
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I'm not saying that Phil was on the same tier as Simmer or Leach as players but rather talking about the relationship all 3 had to the stars they played with.

In all 3 cases there is a clear driver of the bus and a passenger who benefited, of course none of them took the advantage as great as Phil did but it also was in different times and circumstances for all 3 players.

Also you call Phil a rare talent, which may or may not be true but one of the most important measurements I take in a player is consistency and the length of that consistency (along with a host of other factors).

Phil's dramatic and late career arc, and the direct correlation to playing with Orr in his high peak, compared to the rest of his career is a huge red flag to his "greatness factor."

I'm not sure where he is going to place on my all time center list when we do that project but Bowman has him as his 17th best center (on albeit it a really weird list overall IMO) and while I don't agree with all of the guys ahead of him as a lock that range is where Phil fits for me as of right now.

The Moose is definitely ahead of Phil for me.
Except in the cases you mention its a goal-scoring winger playing with a great center. Espo didn't play every shift with Orr like your examples did. And he wasn't just a goal scorer. He led the league in assists 3 times and was 2nd 4 times.

Maybe we should be looking at Gretzky's correlation to playing with Coffey also. Pretty big drop in production there after Coffey leaves also.

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12-02-2012, 01:17 PM
  #170
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Except in the cases you mention its a goal-scoring winger playing with a great center. Espo didn't play every shift with Orr like your examples did. And he wasn't just a goal scorer. He led the league in assists 3 times and was 2nd 4 times.
Yes there is no doubt that when you take all of those shots that some will become rebounds and Phil will get the assist.

But seriously is Phil even in the top 50playmakers of all time?

He wasn't Tim Kerr but he was closer to him than say Adam Oates.

Maybe we should be looking at Gretzky's correlation to playing with Coffey also. Pretty big drop in production there after Coffey leaves also.[/QUOTE]

Coffey's production went down as well, despite playing with arguably a more skilled player in Mario.

If you really think the Phil dependence on Orr was anything like the Wayne dependance on Coffey feel free to discuss.

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12-02-2012, 02:17 PM
  #171
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Yes there is no doubt that when you take all of those shots that some will become rebounds and Phil will get the assist.

But seriously is Phil even in the top 50playmakers of all time?

.
I have him at #7.

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12-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #172
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Yes there is no doubt that when you take all of those shots that some will become rebounds and Phil will get the assist.

But seriously is Phil even in the top 50playmakers of all time?

He wasn't Tim Kerr but he was closer to him than say Adam Oates.
I watched his whole career and I still can't figure out how he got all those assists. He was a shooter not a playmaker. Probably from banking shots off Bucyk's butt on the powerplay and Hodge driving home a lot of rebounds.

I do remember that Espo had a reputation of approaching the scorekeeper to make sure that he got credit for assists.

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12-02-2012, 07:37 PM
  #173
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I do remember that Espo had a reputation of approaching the scorekeeper to make sure that he got credit for assists.
Did Maurice Richard write an article about it?

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12-02-2012, 08:17 PM
  #174
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Did Maurice Richard write an article about it?
Maybe but I am not aware of it. I really don't pay much attention to any of the Rocket's opinions.

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12-02-2012, 08:35 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Except in the cases you mention its a goal-scoring winger playing with a great center. Espo didn't play every shift with Orr like your examples did. And he wasn't just a goal scorer. He led the league in assists 3 times and was 2nd 4 times.

Maybe we should be looking at Gretzky's correlation to playing with Coffey also. Pretty big drop in production there after Coffey leaves also.
Not true, it was leaving Edmonton that caused Gretzky's production to drop some, and then the CC injury caused his production to really drop (I'm sure aging had an effect as well).

Gretzky in Last Year With Coffey in EDM (86-87)
Reg Season: 2.32ppg
Playoffs: 1.62ppg

Gretzky in First Year Without Coffey in EDM (87-88)
Reg Season: 2.33ppg
Playoffs: 2.26ppg

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