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Old
12-02-2012, 12:42 PM
  #126
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
and who does? teams don't trade those away. makes much more sense to trade for an unproven #1 with great potential, same with centers.
Not if you've already got a more proven and younger one.

When you've already got you're potential #1, you don't need to place substantial value on potential. You need to place value on helping ensure his success.

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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
It couldn't possibly have anything to do with Schultz utterly destroying the AHL right now? Nah, just leaf hating.



And therein lies your problem. If you believe the demand for Luongo or Schneider is high. Go ask Boston fans what Rask's value is. Gardiner + 1st would be the minimum.
Not sure what your point is. Toronto wouldn't trade Gardiner for Rask or Schneider. If that's what Boston or Vancouver demand, that's fine for them, they can keep 'em.

As mentioned, we don't need potential. We've got it. What we need is a reliable tandem goaltender.

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12-02-2012, 01:30 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not if you've already got a more proven and younger one.
who is this you speak of?

Are you saying James Reimer is proven?

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12-02-2012, 01:38 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
who is this you speak of?

Are you saying James Reimer is proven?
Compared to Cory Schneider? absolutely. He's played 71 games in the NHL -- basically all of which were as his team's #1 go-to goaltender. The same cannot be said of Schneider.

edit: Since his NHL debut, the Leafs have played 104 games which he was cleared to play. He's played 71 of them. How many games have the Canucks played since Schneider made his debut? 250?


Last edited by seanlinden: 12-02-2012 at 01:46 PM.
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12-02-2012, 01:46 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Compared to Cory Schneider? absolutely. He's played 71 games in the NHL -- basically all of which were as his team's #1 go-to goaltender. The same cannot be said of Schneider.
He is more proven, yes. He's proven to be a pretty mediocre goaltender who only started games because the Leafs had nobody better. Schneider has played excellent in both seasons and in the playoffs. It's not his fault he played behind a great goalie.

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12-02-2012, 01:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Compared to Cory Schneider? absolutely. He's played 71 games in the NHL -- basically all of which were as his team's #1 go-to goaltender. The same cannot be said of Schneider.

edit: Since his NHL debut, the Leafs have played 104 games which he was cleared to play. He's played 71 of them. How many games have the Canucks played since Schneider made his debut? 250?
Schneider has played 76 NHL games, including 8 playoff games. The only reason he hasn;t played more is because of that Roberto Luongo guy.

They both have yet to prove they can handle #1 load in the NHL but Schneider has a ton more potential, and clearly better numbers.

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12-02-2012, 02:01 PM
  #131
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
Schneider has played 76 NHL games, including 8 playoff games. The only reason he hasn;t played more is because of that Roberto Luongo guy.

They both have yet to prove they can handle #1 load in the NHL but Schneider has a ton more potential.
Yeah, which has resulted in the majority those 76 games being backup's games.

Considering that a normal #1 goaltender plays about 65 games (~80%), James Reimer's .911 performance in 68% of his team's games is likely to be much more reliable than Schneider's .928 in ~35% of his team's games.

The reason for Schneider's lack of experience at an older age really isn't important, it's a simple fact that Cory Schneider has never really been his team's #1 goaltender, and there's a substantial jump to make from backup to #1. The jump that Reimer has to make is from 68% of his team's games to about 80%... so the .911 he's put up so far is probably a reasonably good indicator. Schneider's gotta go from ~35% to 80%, meaning what he did in that 35% is much less likely to indicate what he can do as an 80% goaltender.

This "Schneider has a ton more potential" is opinion of a Canucks fan, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
He is more proven, yes. He's proven to be a pretty mediocre goaltender who only started games because the Leafs had nobody better. Schneider has played excellent in both seasons and in the playoffs. It's not his fault he played behind a great goalie.
The Leafs will happily take a .911 goaltender, especially considering the team he played on, as opposed to the more unknown Cory Schneider.

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12-02-2012, 02:09 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post



The Leafs will happily take a .911 goaltender, especially considering the team he played on, as opposed to the more unknown Cory Schneider.
So you would rather have Reimer than Schneider?

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12-02-2012, 02:10 PM
  #133
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So you would rather have Reimer than Schneider?
Absolutely. Younger, cheaper, more proven -- in a #1 role, on a team that wouldn't know puck possession if their life depended on it, and in his ability to play in one of the world's toughest hockey markets.

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12-02-2012, 02:13 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Absolutely. Younger, cheaper, more proven -- in a #1 role, on a team that wouldn't know puck possession if their life depended on it, and in his ability to play in one of the world's toughest hockey markets.
Holy **** this is one of the best posts I've ever seen

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12-02-2012, 02:21 PM
  #135
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Just looking at who Schneider played last season. He shut out Colorado three times, everyone remember that for Pro-Line. He beat Columbus three times too, 1-1 against Edmonton, worst game of the season against Nashville .4oo save percentage, but beat Boston.

Can't wait to see if he runs with the opportunity as a starter or craps the bed.

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12-02-2012, 02:25 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yeah, which has resulted in the majority those 76 games being backup's games.

Considering that a normal #1 goaltender plays about 65 games (~80%), James Reimer's .911 performance in 68% of his team's games is likely to be much more reliable than Schneider's .928 in ~35% of his team's games.

The reason for Schneider's lack of experience at an older age really isn't important, it's a simple fact that Cory Schneider has never really been his team's #1 goaltender, and there's a substantial jump to make from backup to #1. The jump that Reimer has to make is from 68% of his team's games to about 80%... so the .911 he's put up so far is probably a reasonably good indicator. Schneider's gotta go from ~35% to 80%, meaning what he did in that 35% is much less likely to indicate what he can do as an 80% goaltender.

This "Schneider has a ton more potential" is opinion of a Canucks fan, nothing more
Where are you getting 68% from?? the most games Reimer has played is 37 which is 45% of a full season. Last year he played 34 which is 41% and couldn't even hold the #1 job with competition of Gustavsson and Scrivens. He likely doesn't see 20 games if he's competing with Luongo.

Schneider having more potential is not an opinion it's a fact. Ask anyone, including most Leaf fans...

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12-02-2012, 02:29 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
Where are you getting 68% from?? the most games Reimer has played is 37 which is 45% of a full season. Last year he played 34 which is 41% and couldn't even hold the #1 job with competition of Gustavsson and Scrivens. He likely doesn't see 20 games if he's competing with Luongo.

Schneider having more potential is not an opinion it's a fact. Ask anyone, including most Leaf fans...
71 / 104 is 68%. Since making his NHL debut, the Leafs have played 104 games in which he was physically able to play.

What he'd see playing with Luongo is irrelevant. We're talking about who's more proven in the context of a #1 goaltender.

However, I'm curious as to how you establish Schneider having more potential as fact.

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12-02-2012, 02:30 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
71 / 104 is 68%. Since making his NHL debut, the Leafs have played 104 games in which he was physically able to play.

What he'd see playing with Luongo is irrelevant. We're talking about who's more proven in the context of a #1 goaltender.
wtf does that have to do with anything? we are talking about being a proven #1. He hasn't played more than 37 games.. a whopping 4 more than Schneider and can't hold the starting job on a non playoff team that has no legit goalie to compete with.

edit: schneider has more potential because he has won mvp awards at every level and has showed flashes of it at the NHL especially last year in the playoffs.

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12-02-2012, 02:32 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
He is more proven, yes. He's proven to be a pretty mediocre goaltender who only started games because the Leafs had nobody better. Schneider has played excellent in both seasons and in the playoffs. It's not his fault he played behind a great goalie.
Schneider is playing behind an elite team, with nil expectations (having Luongo collapse in front of him, Schneider was in a win-win situation - if he succeeded, he would be hero - if he failed, people would talk about the tremendous disappointment that is their starter). He was long labeled a back up and that takes off a ton of pressure. Nor has he played an NHL starter volume. Playing on the Leafs is a completely different story. Mediocre defense core. Undeveloped team defense systems. It would be a huge and unnecessary gamble.

I'm not saying Reimer is better. But Schneider is not some hero tearing up the league on some ghetto team that he put on his back.

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12-02-2012, 02:35 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
wtf does that have to do with anything? we are talking about being a proven #1. He hasn't played more than 37 games.. a whopping 4 more than Schneider and can't hold the starting job on a non playoff team that has no legit goalie to compete with.
Being a starter is about more than how many games you play out of 82... especially when you consider injuries and the fact that he only started his career in January of his rookie year. It's about a goaltender's ability to play in his team's big games, and be the everyday goaltender who plays in ~80% of his games.

Reimer has been pretty close to that for the average of his career (68% versus 80% benchmark) with a .911 save percentage on a terrible team. Schneider hasn't.

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12-02-2012, 02:37 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
wtf does that have to do with anything? we are talking about being a proven #1. He hasn't played more than 37 games.. a whopping 4 more than Schneider and can't hold the starting job on a non playoff team that has no legit goalie to compete with.
Schneider may be close to being a starter on an elite NHL team with a developed defensive system. That doesn't make him a starter on the majority of teams in the league. I'm not saying he can't be a legit starter for any team in the league - but his record isn't some absolute predictor of competence on a mediocre Leaf team. Nor has he played true starter volume. "Back role" is by definition, a protected role within minimal expectations.

You could put a large number of goalies in Vancouver's net and they would look competent. Lot different than putting those goalies into a bottom 10 team.

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12-02-2012, 02:39 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Being a starter is about more than how many games you play out of 82... especially when you consider injuries and the fact that he only started his career in January of his rookie year. It's about a goaltender's ability to play in his team's big games, and be the everyday goaltender who plays in ~80% of his games.

Reimer has been pretty close to that for the average of his career (68% versus 80% benchmark) with a .911 save percentage on a terrible team. Schneider hasn't.
So it's how many games you play...

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12-02-2012, 02:40 PM
  #143
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
So it's how many games you play...
Yes, as a percentage of how many you're able to play in.

A #1 goalie who only plays 40 games because he misses 25-30 games with an injury is still a #1 goalie in those 40 games he plays.

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12-02-2012, 02:43 PM
  #144
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I think Toronto fans overrate Vancouver's defense here.

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12-02-2012, 02:47 PM
  #145
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I think Toronto fans overrate Vancouver's defense here.
Having a top 5 team defence requires more than goaltending.

Or do you think that if you swap Reimer/Gustavsson for Luongo/Schneider that the Leafs become a top 4 defensive team and Vancouver becomes the 2nd worst?

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12-02-2012, 02:56 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
Schneider may be close to being a starter on an elite NHL team with a developed defensive system. That doesn't make him a starter on the majority of teams in the league. I'm not saying he can't be a legit starter for any team in the league - but his record isn't some absolute predictor of competence on a mediocre Leaf team. Nor has he played true starter volume. "Back role" is by definition, a protected role within minimal expectations.

You could put a large number of goalies in Vancouver's net and they would look competent. Lot different than putting those goalies into a bottom 10 team.
I agree with you. I was arguing the idea that somehow Reimer is more proven to be a legit #1. neither of them have played 40 games yet, bet I would be more comfortable putting my money on Schneider becuase of his potenial.

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12-02-2012, 02:58 PM
  #147
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
I agree with you. I was arguing the idea that somehow Reimer is more proven to be a legit #1. neither of them have played 40 games yet, bet I would be more comfortable putting my money on Schneider becuase of his potenial.
Reimer is absolutely more proven in his ability to be a #1. When healthy, he played 68% of his team's games. Schneider doesn't come anywhere near over the average of his career.

I'm also still waiting for you to substantiate the fact that Schneider has more potential.

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12-02-2012, 03:00 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Being a starter is about more than how many games you play out of 82... especially when you consider injuries and the fact that he only started his career in January of his rookie year. It's about a goaltender's ability to play in his team's big games, and be the everyday goaltender who plays in ~80% of his games.

Reimer has been pretty close to that for the average of his career (68% versus 80% benchmark) with a .911 save percentage on a terrible team. Schneider hasn't.
yeah Schneider hasn't played in any big games... He only posted 1.31 GAA, 960sv% in three playoff games last year, 2 of them being elimination games where he went toe to toe with Quick.

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12-02-2012, 03:01 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Reimer is absolutely more proven in his ability to be a #1. When healthy, he played 68% of his team's games. Schneider doesn't come anywhere near over the average of his career.

I'm also still waiting for you to substantiate the fact that Schneider has more potential.
I already gave it to you, try reading my posts.

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12-02-2012, 03:02 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Having a top 5 team defence requires more than goaltending.
It does, but imo purely their team D isn't on top 5.


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Or do you think that if you swap Reimer/Gustavsson for Luongo/Schneider that the Leafs become a top 4 defensive team and Vancouver becomes the 2nd worst?
Nope, not that far.

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