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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - Off Season 2012-13 (Part IX)

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Old
12-01-2012, 07:52 PM
  #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
lou may be an "elite" regular season goalie.
However, he is far from that in the playoffs.

He is not worth anything to me, especially with that contract
False... standard misnomer

playoffs:
06-07 0.941
08-09 0.914
09-10 0.895
10-11 0.914
11-12 0.891
Career Playoffs: 0.916
Career Reg Season: 0.919

Still beating Pavelec's Career 0.907

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12-01-2012, 07:54 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
False... standard misnomer

playoffs:
06-07 0.941
08-09 0.914
09-10 0.895
10-11 0.914
11-12 0.891
Career Playoffs: 0.916
Career Reg Season: 0.919

Still beating Pavelec's Career 0.907
Didnt say he was worse then Pavelec.
I would take Luongo over Pavelec.

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12-01-2012, 07:57 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Didnt say he was worse then Pavelec.
I would take Luongo over Pavelec.
But there's only a 0.3% difference in Luongo's reg/playoff sv%... you had eluded to him being a different goalie in the playoffs, which is a common misnomer.

But I probably agree on the contract thing, since the Jets are most likely an internal cap team... and we'd have to try to flip Pavelec some how.

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Old
12-01-2012, 08:10 PM
  #979
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He isnt a big gamer imo
When ever he really needs to step up, he tends not to

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12-01-2012, 08:16 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
He isnt a big gamer imo
When ever he really needs to step up, he tends not to
Well... If you're the top level reg season performer and you perform equally as well in the playoffs, I'd say you're elite.

Lack of stepping up in big games is a misnomer since no other goalie (exception Osgood) plays significantly different in playoff:regseason. Can't blame a guy for something no one else does.

Any performer who has been significantly better in playoffs is usually significantly better in reg season.

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12-01-2012, 08:29 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Well... If you're the top level reg season performer and you perform equally as well in the playoffs, I'd say you're elite.

Lack of stepping up in big games is a misnomer since no other goalie (exception Osgood) plays significantly different in playoff:regseason. Can't blame a guy for something no one else does.

Any performer who has been significantly better in playoffs is usually significantly better in reg season.
Garrett is right.

Lu is a better playoff goalie than MAF and MAF has all sorts of clutch reputation. Most of the clutch vs non clutch stuff is made up nonsense.

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Old
12-01-2012, 08:40 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
Garrett is right.

Lu is a better playoff goalie than MAF and MAF has all sorts of clutch reputation. Most of the clutch vs non clutch stuff is made up nonsense.
Don't use that word!!!
Now we know where this convo will go

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12-01-2012, 09:00 PM
  #983
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Don't use that word!!!
Now we know where this convo will go
It has been done.

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Old
12-01-2012, 10:21 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I hate to do this, but there is stupid amounts of video evidence, he flops like a fish out of water whenever gets close



One this one the stick does not even comes close to his head...


Literally every single game Vancouver game I watch I see him dive. I know I am not the only one, since it's all over the place. Like I said, my VAN friends admit he is the worst diving goalie in the NHL, it's a pretty well known thing...
He he he that's pretty funny. I stand corrected. I think I would have an issue with it if he didn't play on my second team, but he does so its ok lol. The first one he clearly got elbowed in the head, in number 3 it doesn't even look like anyone is even around him.

And you clearly kept that lat one on your PVR just for a occasion such as this.


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12-01-2012, 11:30 PM
  #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Garrett is right.

Lu is a better playoff goalie than MAF and MAF has all sorts of clutch reputation. Most of the clutch vs non clutch stuff is made up nonsense.
After MAF's playoff performance in 2012, that likely shouldn't be a problem anymore.

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12-02-2012, 12:20 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
After MAF's playoff performance in 2012, that likely shouldn't be a problem anymore.
Look at his playoff numbers dating back to Jr. He has been sub .900 more than he's been above.

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12-02-2012, 12:24 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
He he he that's pretty funny. I stand corrected. I think I would have an issue with it if he didn't play on my second team, but he does so its ok lol. The first one he clearly got elbowed in the head, in number 3 it doesn't even look like anyone is even around him.

And you clearly kept that lat one on your PVR just for a occasion such as this.
Why does everyone love the biggest diver of them all? Nobody outside of that division hates on Dustin Brown?

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12-02-2012, 12:48 AM
  #988
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Why does everyone love the biggest diver of them all? Nobody outside of that division hates on Dustin Brown?
Totally agree.

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12-02-2012, 12:54 AM
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
He he he that's pretty funny. I stand corrected. I think I would have an issue with it if he didn't play on my second team, but he does so its ok lol. The first one he clearly got elbowed in the head, in number 3 it doesn't even look like anyone is even around him.

And you clearly kept that lat one on your PVR just for a occasion such as this.
I don't even have PVR (or cable TV starting next month)

I hate using videos as "evidence" since it only shows a few incidents, but it can be useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Why does everyone love the biggest diver of them all? Nobody outside of that division hates on Dustin Brown?
No really getting what you are trying to say here?

Brown does dive. Moreso he "goes down easy" rather than outright when nothing touches him, but I can see that people don't always draw a distinction. He has not done it nearly so much in the past two seasons though, and most importantly not once during the playoff run. Brown has always been the clean player more interested in hitting and drawing penalties (with his hitting, speed and mouth as well as going down easy) than being the toughest though, cares little about his reputation if it helps the team win.

You can say that about most divers, I suppose, but many of the worst are also dirty, which drives me nuts (ex Lapierre or Avery back in the day). The big difference for me, is that Brown never tossed his head back when a stick came close, never jumped and did a mid air pirouette, never went down without being touched. Just when he a stick was between his legs, he went down, or he was hooked, etc. There's a reason Brown does not draw nearly as many diving penalties as other famous divers.

Not gonna deny he does that though, no Kings fan will I would think.

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Old
12-02-2012, 12:12 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
No, I did not say this would be his 6th FULL season, but he has had 5 previous kicks at the cat.
However, if you think I'm being a little hard on Pavs, you're probably right. He is in a key position for us, making a ton of money and does not have the career numbers or improving performance of a winning NHL goaltender. Simple as that. His off-ice antics haven't endeared me to him either, I admit. He's still got a chance to prove himself, but the clock is ticking and the love is tough.
Contrast this, with, for example, Burmistrov. The kid is 21, this is his third year, his trajectory has been in the right direction, his off-ice behaviour impeccable and the Jets' fate is not so directly tied-in to his performance. I've got a lot more patience for that.
I've bolded what is incorrect. If you really want to count his 5 and 12 game stints as seasons, go ahead, but people will not take you seriously in that case.

Also, if you think he hasn't improved since he came into the league, then you are, again, out to lunch. If you had watched him since his first full season, 3 years ago, then you would know he has done nothing but improve. But I get the sense you're a little oblivious to that.

You seem to also be under the impression that goalies should start peaking by the age of 25, or at least showing upper tier status. Here's the thing. Most goalies don't start to peak until their late 20s. Even the ones that have great seasons earlier are usually inconsistent.

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12-02-2012, 12:38 PM
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
I've bolded what is incorrect. If you really want to count his 5 and 12 game stints as seasons, go ahead, but people will not take you seriously in that case.

Also, if you think he hasn't improved since he came into the league, then you are, again, out to lunch. If you had watched him since his first full season, 3 years ago, then you would know he has done nothing but improve. But I get the sense you're a little oblivious to that.

You seem to also be under the impression that goalies should start peaking by the age of 25, or at least showing upper tier status. Here's the thing. Most goalies don't start to peak until their late 20s. Even the ones that have great seasons earlier are usually inconsistent.
His numbers were worse last year than the year before and his career stats are not great. He has not improved in a linear fashion.
If you trace my previous comments on this subject, you will see I have admitted to being hard on Pavs, because of the importance of his position to the Jets' success and his poor track record over the past year. In doing so, I was looking for constructive comments with respect to the Jets' goalie situation, going forward. Your last sentence fits that description. The personal stuff preceding it was unnecessary.
I remain open to constructive comments.

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12-02-2012, 03:55 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
His numbers were worse last year than the year before and his career stats are not great. He has not improved in a linear fashion.
If you trace my previous comments on this subject, you will see I have admitted to being hard on Pavs, because of the importance of his position to the Jets' success and his poor track record over the past year. In doing so, I was looking for constructive comments with respect to the Jets' goalie situation, going forward. Your last sentence fits that description. The personal stuff preceding it was unnecessary.
I remain open to constructive comments.
Quit looking at his numbers and stats. This is where you are failing. You have to have watched him over the last few years to see the improvement. He used to be awful at over committing. Not nearly the problem it was 2-3 years ago. He was one of the worst in shootouts. He's improved dramatically in that area. He's still not where he needs to be but he's getting there. This was the first year where he was the undisputed #1 guy. He was relied on a lot more then ever before. His previous two seasons he split time and has had his starts increase each year.
Pavs has made strides each year. He will be fine. Just have a tad bit of patience instead of having unrealistic expectations.

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12-02-2012, 04:03 PM
  #993
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Quit looking at his numbers and stats. This is where you are failing. You have to have watched him over the last few years to see the improvement. He used to be awful at over committing. Not nearly the problem it was 2-3 years ago. He was one of the worst in shootouts. He's improved dramatically in that area. He's still not where he needs to be but he's getting there. This was the first year where he was the undisputed #1 guy. He was relied on a lot more then ever before. His previous two seasons he split time and has had his starts increase each year.
Pavs has made strides each year. He will be fine. Just have a tad bit of patience instead of having unrealistic expectations.
Have to agree. Stats only show part of the story and don't account for the intangibles. Pavs will be fine, we have a good talent here, and totally agree on having a little patience.

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12-02-2012, 04:18 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Quit looking at his numbers and stats. This is where you are failing. You have to have watched him over the last few years to see the improvement. He used to be awful at over committing. Not nearly the problem it was 2-3 years ago. He was one of the worst in shootouts. He's improved dramatically in that area. He's still not where he needs to be but he's getting there. This was the first year where he was the undisputed #1 guy. He was relied on a lot more then ever before. His previous two seasons he split time and has had his starts increase each year.
Pavs has made strides each year. He will be fine. Just have a tad bit of patience instead of having unrealistic expectations.
Personally I haven't seen much improvements in those areas. He still over commits. He He still is bad in SO. He was #1 guy because the other option was worse.
The increase in starts has lead to a decrease in results even though the per game load has been easier with less shots/game and more defensive system pushing those shots to less dangerous areas.
I'm high on Pavs because he has the tools, but hasn't quite gotten the toolbox... and as a former goalie I understand what it's like.
He still hasn't made steps to become the guy he could be. All indications are his work ethic is poor. He still has a weakness with back-to-backs, weekends and away games... even relative to others. This could be an indication of poor work ethic and professionally.

Quote:
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Have to agree. Stats only show part of the story and don't account for the intangibles. Pavs will be fine, we have a good talent here, and totally agree on having a little patience.
While more can go on that is beyond the numbers... the above can be partial fallacies as well.

If improvements or intangibles exist they still show up in stats as you should be causing positive results. If improvements or intangibles do not create positive results then they aren't really that great.

For Pavs I still see a bit of the same story as his early years. I still see a guy with great raw athleticism and size, but poor positioning, over commits and results that point out to bad work ethic.


Last edited by garret9: 12-02-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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12-02-2012, 07:34 PM
  #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
Quit looking at his numbers and stats. This is where you are failing. You have to have watched him over the last few years to see the improvement. He used to be awful at over committing. Not nearly the problem it was 2-3 years ago. He was one of the worst in shootouts. He's improved dramatically in that area. He's still not where he needs to be but he's getting there. This was the first year where he was the undisputed #1 guy. He was relied on a lot more then ever before. His previous two seasons he split time and has had his starts increase each year.
Pavs has made strides each year. He will be fine. Just have a tad bit of patience instead of having unrealistic expectations.
I think people may have taken "promising young goalie" and projected "top starter in the NHL" on him.

Pavelec had flashes of brilliance last year. He also had stretches where he looked easy to beat. There were times when he was obviously tired as well and i fault the coaches for not playing Mason more and letting Pavs recover.

He still has the potential to be a top tier NHL goalie. He is still young and relatively inexperienced, he isn't there yet. That doesn't mean he won't get there.

People should stop expecting young players to be consistently great. Only a precious few break into the NHL like that. The rest have to learn, grow and mature. We are seeing that with Bogosian, and Pavelec and Burmistrov are just getting there a bit more slowly.

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12-02-2012, 08:04 PM
  #996
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I think people may have taken "promising young goalie" and projected "top starter in the NHL" on him.

Pavelec had flashes of brilliance last year. He also had stretches where he looked easy to beat. There were times when he was obviously tired as well and i fault the coaches for not playing Mason more and letting Pavs recover.

He still has the potential to be a top tier NHL goalie. He is still young and relatively inexperienced, he isn't there yet. That doesn't mean he won't get there.

People should stop expecting young players to be consistently great. Only a precious few break into the NHL like that. The rest have to learn, grow and mature. We are seeing that with Bogosian, and Pavelec and Burmistrov are just getting there a bit more slowly.
We will see with Pavs

Despite the fact I can get on him a bit for commitment I do have the feeling he will be capable of getting on a roll in the playoffs? I don't know why but I could see him going toe to toe with the best goalie at some point and coming out on top over a 7 game series. before his time is done in Winnipeg I predict he has at least one sensation spring. He just seems like "that type".

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12-02-2012, 09:35 PM
  #997
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We will see with Pavs

Despite the fact I can get on him a bit for commitment I do have the feeling he will be capable of getting on a roll in the playoffs? I don't know why but I could see him going toe to toe with the best goalie at some point and coming out on top over a 7 game series. before his time is done in Winnipeg I predict he has at least one sensation spring. He just seems like "that type".
His 0.930 in December shows he can do it. Although part of it was likely luck/variance, you need some skill for that.

But just like any prospect, you hope for progression.

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12-03-2012, 09:11 AM
  #998
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Listen guys all this team needs is DAVE TIPPET as our coach.

Seriously though, he has ways of making his team's goalies look amazing and that gets his team into the playoff mix more often than not. I like Claude Noel, but I'd be thrilled if Tippet were the JETS coach because he is a terrific coach.


As far as Luongo goes, I am not opposed to acquiring him if the asking price is not substantial although I agree that Winnipeg is likely not in the cards for him. At the same time, Pavelec could still become more consistent and be the goalie the JETS need him to be.

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12-03-2012, 09:39 AM
  #999
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Thread limit near reached. Pleased continue on in new thread here.

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