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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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Old
11-29-2012, 11:50 PM
  #876
VinnyC
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
I know all this information already.
Hackey's just shining a bit of hope in here. It's known to both sides that losing a whole season is a far worse outcome than settling a slightly unfavourable CBA. It's just a matter of whether someone will budge; in 1995 that was the case but in 2005 no one twitched.

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12-02-2012, 04:01 PM
  #877
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Word is that Jacobs is one of the owners who will be partaking in the next round of meetings... I thought new blood was wanted. Jacobs is as much of (or more of) the problem as Betman

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12-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #878
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Word is that Jacobs is one of the owners who will be partaking in the next round of meetings... I thought new blood was wanted. Jacobs is as much of (or more of) the problem as Betman
Well, this is going to be a huge waste of time if Jacobs is part of the meetings.

SunGarrioch:
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NHL owners on Tuesday in NYC: Burkle (PIT), Chipman (WPG), Edwards (CAL), Jacobs (BOS), Tanenbaum (TOR), Vinik (TB)

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12-02-2012, 04:29 PM
  #879
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Word is that Jacobs is one of the owners who will be partaking in the next round of meetings... I thought new blood was wanted. Jacobs is as much of (or more of) the problem as Betman
lol...this should be interesting, why bother having any other owners show up if Jacobs is just going to push the same tired spiel? Sounds like a waste of time now.

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12-02-2012, 04:35 PM
  #880
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lol...this should be interesting, why bother having any other owners show up if Jacobs is just going to push the same tired spiel? Sounds like a waste of time now.
Jacobs just needs to be banned from CBA negotiations.

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12-02-2012, 04:44 PM
  #881
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Jacobs just needs to be banned from CBA negotiations.
I could see him sitting in a tree trying to peep in on negotiations and giving threatening gestures to other owners.

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12-02-2012, 05:52 PM
  #882
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I could see him sitting in a tree trying to peep in on negotiations and giving threatening gestures to other owners.
He'll be in the room.

@Mirtle tweets:

"Daly says these owners to attend meeting on Tuesday: Ron Burkle, Mark Chipman, Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Larry Tanenbaum and Jeff Vinik"

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12-02-2012, 05:59 PM
  #883
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We're back to taking days on end deciding who should just meet. I think fans can just take the word "optimism" out of our vocabulary for this lockout.

Both sides are showing no urgency to get this CBA figured out, let alone do they show any urgency to get in the same room together. It's long past the days where they put off meetings until later into next week. They sure love to kick their fans while we're already down.

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12-02-2012, 06:02 PM
  #884
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Jacobs is there to keep the Canadian owners muzzled. I don't expect anything to come of this. The owners have been trying to push this bs line that Fehr is withholding info from the players, even though players are present at the meetings already. About all this meeting will do is put that excuse to rest.

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12-02-2012, 06:25 PM
  #885
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I agree. And this is all just posturing BS.

And we'll have to put up with this guff until we hit the drop dead deadline.

I think somewhere between New Year's and the middle of January.

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12-02-2012, 07:40 PM
  #886
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Jacobs is there to keep the Canadian owners muzzled. I don't expect anything to come of this. The owners have been trying to push this bs line that Fehr is withholding info from the players, even though players are present at the meetings already. About all this meeting will do is put that excuse to rest.
I'd think that the biggest reason why Jabobs is there is because he's the chairman of the BOG. He probably gets to choose who attends.

You're right that the owners want this meeting without Fehr because they feel that he has obstructed negotiations - that has pretty much been his entire playbook since he was hired by the PA.

Fehr made sure that the PA was reorganized so that he alone would be in charge. He changed the voting rules so it was harder for him to be ousted and he eliminated the player-president role that Linden held. It's true that some players are present at each meetings, but it's a revolving door of players. Since no player is involved in the entirety of the process, they all end up being observers. I think saying that Fehr withheld information from players is probably going too far, but he has certainly been actively shaping all PA info meant for player consumption.

The timing of the NHL's request for a Fehr-less meeting is interesting; it comes after the PA asked for mediation, building their case that negotiations have reached an impasse and angling toward de-certification. I think it shows that the owners truly believe that Fehr has held up the bargaining process.

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12-02-2012, 07:50 PM
  #887
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I'd think that the biggest reason why Jabobs is there is because he's the chairman of the BOG. He probably gets to choose who attends.

You're right that the owners want this meeting without Fehr because they feel that he has obstructed negotiations - that has pretty much been his entire playbook since he was hired by the PA.

Fehr made sure that the PA was reorganized so that he alone would be in charge. He changed the voting rules so it was harder for him to be ousted and he eliminated the player-president role that Linden held. It's true that some players are present at each meetings, but it's a revolving door of players. Since no player is involved in the entirety of the process, they all end up being observers. I think saying that Fehr withheld information from players is probably going too far, but he has certainly been actively shaping all PA info meant for player consumption.

The timing of the NHL's request for a Fehr-less meeting is interesting; it comes after the PA asked for mediation, building their case that negotiations have reached an impasse and angling toward de-certification. I think it shows that the owners truly believe that Fehr has held up the bargaining process.
And I'm sure the players feel that Bettman and a small handful of owners have held up the process as well...works both ways.

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12-02-2012, 08:26 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
And I'm sure the players feel that Bettman and a small handful of owners have held up the process as well...works both ways.
Exactly. Although Jacobs' inclusion in the negotiations might make the PA feel the NHL is trying to BS them. We'll see how it works out.

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12-03-2012, 09:54 AM
  #889
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I know there is no love, or even respect, for Damien Co, on these biards, but O thought this was an interesting take.

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...is-curren.html

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12-03-2012, 11:16 AM
  #890
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You're right that the owners want this meeting without Fehr because they feel that he has obstructed negotiations - that has pretty much been his entire playbook since he was hired by the PA.
And Jacobs is what? The same guy that told the Jets to shut their yaps.

Might as well have a schmuck like Bolland in the room so the two can sing kunbaya.

What have the owners "negotiatiated" exactly?

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12-03-2012, 11:23 AM
  #891
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So, I was talking to my friend who works for the Flames online media team, and got some interesting information from him (Flames BOG Murray Edwards has been part of the Owners negotiation team).

According to him, back when the PA and NHL had their week of meetings, on the Friday the NHL thought that they were going to have a deal done. Unfortunately the PA came into that last meeting with a bunch of smaller issues that really set the tone of the negoatiations back and they haven't been able to gain traction since then.

Add that to all the noise from the media that the PA and Fehr have been using stalling tactics and making negotiations frustrating for the owners, I'm really starting to question whether or not Fehr is really trying to avoid another lost season (I have my doubts that Bettman is working hard enough to save the season as well).

@TheFourthPeriod
So John Collins (NHL's COO) is reportedly considering leaving due to the lockout... that would be a HUGE loss for the NHL if that happens

John Collins in the guy behind the Winter Classic and 24/7. This would be a huge loss for the NHL, hopefully this will help Bettman get deal done.

BTW, my stance on this whole thing is that the NHL needs to come off restricting players contract rights and the NHLPA needs to come off their "make whole" provision. Once those things happen a deal will be made.

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12-03-2012, 11:37 AM
  #892
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Why should the NHLPA come off their make whole? I think the NHL should have to live up to those contracts that were signed. It's disgusting how they could sign a contract and then claim they can't support those contracts.

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12-03-2012, 11:40 AM
  #893
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Why should the NHLPA come off their make whole? I think the NHL should have to live up to those contracts that were signed. It's disgusting how they could sign a contract and then claim they can't support those contracts.
They have to because "they're hurting". It's just a coincidence Jacobs authorized giving Seguin that long term just before the lockout - one of those monster deals that Bettman seemed so against. Just a coincidence that contract will be rolled back - no there's no way the "Chairman of the BOG" could possibly know that right?

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12-03-2012, 11:56 AM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
I'd think that the biggest reason why Jabobs is there is because he's the chairman of the BOG. He probably gets to choose who attends.

You're right that the owners want this meeting without Fehr because they feel that he has obstructed negotiations - that has pretty much been his entire playbook since he was hired by the PA.

Fehr made sure that the PA was reorganized so that he alone would be in charge. He changed the voting rules so it was harder for him to be ousted and he eliminated the player-president role that Linden held. It's true that some players are present at each meetings, but it's a revolving door of players. Since no player is involved in the entirety of the process, they all end up being observers. I think saying that Fehr withheld information from players is probably going too far, but he has certainly been actively shaping all PA info meant for player consumption.

The timing of the NHL's request for a Fehr-less meeting is interesting; it comes after the PA asked for mediation, building their case that negotiations have reached an impasse and angling toward de-certification. I think it shows that the owners truly believe that Fehr has held up the bargaining process.
I think it shows nothing more than that the NHL has nothing reasonable to offer but an attempt to smear Donald Fehr to try to re-claim the PR battle they're badly losing. It's probably just another page from moral leper Frank Luntz's media messaging playbook. When you don't have any ideas to offer, attack the other guy.

Funny how Fehr never had that reputation before. Per Larry Brooks:

Quote:
It all appears to be part of a strategy to paint Fehr as unethical in order to undermine his influence with the players. This is in stark contrast to the manner in which former MLB commissioner Fay Vincent portrayed the former leader (23 years) of the MLBPA in a published tribute to Marvin Miller, the iconic MLBPA leader who passed away on Wednesday.

“Miller and his successors Donald Fehr and Michael Wiener created a union that stands as a model,” Vincent wrote. “Their union is brilliantly led, honestly managed and extremely successful.”

In more than three decades working with the MLBPA, not once was Fehr accused of acting unethically in collective bargaining. Yet now, that’s the repeated implication coming from the NHL.

It’s a concerted effort that reeks of desperation. And it’s one that isn’t very likely to impress anyone on Federal or Provincial labor boards or in court if those, as expected, become the next arenas in which this No Hockey League competes.
link: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...YRGeiAMY3xF1QN

The league is being run by Jeremy Jacobs, who sounds like a reprehensibly cheap, Wirtzian old man. The problem isn't Donald Fehr consolidating PA power after the union was in tatters last go around -- it's the fact that the NHL is run by a small cabal of unreasonable owners. I have a feeling if you put the owners of the Rags, Canucks, Leafs, and Habs in the room, you might get a different vibe.

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12-03-2012, 12:10 PM
  #895
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Ask yourself one question how in heavens sake can employers pay 57 percent of revunue to players?Also the Nfl tv contract is huge compared to nhl and player contracts are not guranteed .Do nhl players no how good they have it.

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12-03-2012, 12:16 PM
  #896
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Ask yourself one question how in heavens sake can employers pay 57 percent of revunue to players?
What businesses can lose money as the NHL claims and have the values of the franchises exceed that by a fair margin in a bad economy inspite of that old revenue share formula?

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12-03-2012, 12:17 PM
  #897
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Why should the NHLPA come off their make whole? I think the NHL should have to live up to those contracts that were signed. It's disgusting how they could sign a contract and then claim they can't support those contracts.
From everything I understand, the contracts have something written in them that makes them contingent on the CBA that is signed, so if the CBA contains a clause where Escrow takes money away then the contracts are still valid.

I agree with you in principle but in reality if you want the NHL to play anytime soon, you better hope the PA comes off the "make whole" clause. Just like you better hope the NHL stops trying to take away players contract rights (ELC length, Arbitration, UFA Age).

I'm tired of arguing principle, it's why we are here. Lets talk reality and what needs to get done to have NHL hockey back on the ice.

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12-03-2012, 01:08 PM
  #898
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From everything I understand, the contracts have something written in them that makes them contingent on the CBA that is signed, so if the CBA contains a clause where Escrow takes money away then the contracts are still valid.

I agree with you in principle but in reality if you want the NHL to play anytime soon, you better hope the PA comes off the "make whole" clause. Just like you better hope the NHL stops trying to take away players contract rights (ELC length, Arbitration, UFA Age).

I'm tired of arguing principle, it's why we are here. Lets talk reality and what needs to get done to have NHL hockey back on the ice.
Here's the thing. If you'd told me in June the players would agree to a 50/50 revenue split and would be willing to get there within 3 seasons, and would be open to changing the way cap limits applied to long-term deals, I would have said they'd be able to get a deal without missing more than the pre-season.

I supported the owners (by and large) in the last lockout. I think Gary Bettman should be a pariah and this his stewardship of the league has been ultimately unsuccessful -- however, I never in my wildest dreams imagined the league driving the negotiations into the ditch as they have done repeatedly for the better part of 6 months. I'm honestly shocked by it.

At this point I hope the season is cancelled and we don't see hockey until Gary Bettman is removed as head of the league. I'd also like to see Jacobs removed as head of the board of governors.

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12-03-2012, 01:21 PM
  #899
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Here's the thing. If you'd told me in June the players would agree to a 50/50 revenue split and would be willing to get there within 3 seasons, and would be open to changing the way cap limits applied to long-term deals, I would have said they'd be able to get a deal without missing more than the pre-season.

I supported the owners (by and large) in the last lockout. I think Gary Bettman should be a pariah and this his stewardship of the league has been ultimately unsuccessful -- however, I never in my wildest dreams imagined the league driving the negotiations into the ditch as they have done repeatedly for the better part of 6 months. I'm honestly shocked by it.

At this point I hope the season is cancelled and we don't see hockey until Gary Bettman is removed as head of the league. I'd also like to see Jacobs removed as head of the board of governors.
To be fair, Fehr stalled negotiations throughout most of the year. I agree wholeheartedly that it's time to remove Bettman and get a fresh voice for the league though. The PA may have stalled initially coming together to negotiate early on, but at least they've made some significant concessions at the table, the owners have brought nothing.

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12-03-2012, 01:35 PM
  #900
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To be fair, Fehr stalled negotiations throughout most of the year. I agree wholeheartedly that it's time to remove Bettman and get a fresh voice for the league though. The PA may have stalled initially coming together to negotiate early on, but at least they've made some significant concessions at the table, the owners have brought nothing.
Fehr did, but if the NHL's response had been to make a reasonable pitch to start the process in the summer, then things wouldn't be going in this direction. The NHL started so far out in crazy land that it took 4 months to even get into a reasonable territory, which built up a lot of animosity.

From a purely strategic perspective it was a PR nightmare for the league, and they created most of it themselves by blundernig through this. Bettman has simply seemed over-matched.


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