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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-02-2012, 01:44 PM
  #276
Butch 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
I note the NFL didn't miss any games. When they approached the deadline of losing games both sides cut a deal.

The NBA had [has] a lot of similarities to the NHL situation--many teams losing money or breaking even at best.
well, except that the NBA has:

1. several (many?) players with $15 - 20m contracts
2. much more revenue than NHL (to pay only 12 players per team)
3. broadcast contracts with several broadcasters
4. NBAPA was smart enough to get a CBA signed and get back to work. That's the ONLY way to keep making money, and keeping fans' interest.

The NHLPA's actions is damaging the NHL's brand. I really don't see fans flocking back to the NHL.

And if they lose a full year again? A team or 2 may fold. Great work NHLPA!

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12-02-2012, 01:54 PM
  #277
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I wonder if NBA getting back and having good revenues have any influence on the lack of urgency here. Both sides seem to take the fans for granted and don't really believe the fans will vote with their wallets when they get a chance to.

Perhaps they are right and a December/January start will be a mere bump in the road. Or they are very mistaken and this will be a business case study for years.

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12-02-2012, 02:07 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
well, except that the NBA has:

4. NBAPA was smart enough to get a CBA signed and get back to work. That's the ONLY way to keep making money, and keeping fans' interest.
Completely agree...

NBAPA had the common sense to decertify right before the NBA backtracked, signed the CBA and got back to work. What"s the NHLPA waiting for?

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12-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Nope.

Bettman and the owners would rather cook the books, lose a season and kill HRR over a 7% change.

They want stronger controls over player movement/contracting rights-- which really are very valuable to teams; limits on contracts and limits on Yr-to-Yr variance to beat back their own owners.

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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I'm not sure what I would call striking before a world series.....

MLB has an anti-trust exemption as well, but in spite of that, they managed to get themselves into a legal mess which, once a court was involved, led to a swift end to the strike.

You see, you're claiming that the strike was unethical, when the fact of the matter is that MLB owners were behaving not only unethically but illegally.

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12-02-2012, 03:19 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Simply having a long lockout this time around isn't going to dissuade future lockouts. We lost an entire season 7 years ago, yet here we are with the possibility of it happening again. Has little to do with how easy or hard negotiation were last time.

The best thing to head off future lockouts and lost games would be to have most to all of the NHL teams making money. That is the #1 thing that would make the league more adverse to missing games over a labor dispute.
This is one of the best posts in this thread and highlights a great point that isn't given enough weight: We can argue how much what owners are losing and how many franchises are not profitable. We can debate who is hiding money and projecting losses on to their teams through creative accounting. The black and white fact of the matter is, if the NHL as a whole was a healthy money making machine, there would never be a lockout. *most* of the owners are smart businessmen. That is how they got the money they have now. They would not just throw away a season's revenue to try to squeeze a few hundred million more from the players.

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12-02-2012, 03:32 PM
  #281
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The reason why Bettman went after the NHLPA by initiating this lockout, is not so much because he wanted parity among the teams, no, that is the propaganda meted out for our consumption, rather it is because he viewed the NHLPA as weak and that an attack on it would translate into additional profits. The game plan for the NHLPA to counter it, is to simply not let the NHL profit from this undertaking at all. So this year and maybe the next year is out. The long term benefit of this impasse when it is over will be that Bettman will no longer be making lockouts, and that he will be out of the job.

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12-02-2012, 03:33 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Source?

As a side, I love how this figure keeps changing. First it's 17, then 18, then 22, then half, then the new Forbes numbers come out and it's almost half, then it's half again, and now it's more than half.


Who the hell cares what the real number is. Does it matter if its 14 or 22 or 17???

If half a companies franchises operate at a loss, it is a serious serious problem.

Can you imagine for a second if half of Burger King's franchises were operating at a loss and the staff were making over half of the gross revenue? What do you think would happen?

I know I am oversimplifying and there are of course factors such as owners not being in the league specifically to make money and players being exceptionally specialized workers but the stark reality is it cannot work long term. Can you imagine Burger King being so desperate to fix the problem that they locked their workers out for months to fix the problem?

Player supporters can rant as much as they want but the black and white of it is players are taking too much. Owners have all the risk and are losing too much. Until this is fixed there will be no hockey.

The ONLY card the PA holds is decertification. So, either sign the deal or get on with the process already ffs.

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12-02-2012, 03:36 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by OrangeZebra View Post
Let the fans decide.
Each side gets a guaranteed 45% of the HRR, with the final 10% being decided at the end of the year by a vote from the fans. Let's say out of 10,000 votes, the PA gets 3,000. Therefore, they would receive 48%, and the owners would get 52%. If they think they are winning the PR battle let them prove it.
Yeah, because either side would trust uninformed idiots to vote. I mean look at some of the politicians these idiots have voted in (not referring to a specific person/party... just in general)... there's no way either side would trust them with 5-10% of their business plan.

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12-02-2012, 03:47 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
well, except that the NBA has:

1. several (many?) players with $15 - 20m contracts
2. much more revenue than NHL (to pay only 12 players per team)
3. broadcast contracts with several broadcasters
4. NBAPA was smart enough to get a CBA signed and get back to work. That's the ONLY way to keep making money, and keeping fans' interest.

The NHLPA's actions is damaging the NHL's brand. I really don't see fans flocking back to the NHL.

And if they lose a full year again? A team or 2 may fold. Great work NHLPA!
First, let me point out im on the side of the owners. But really, it's of no concern to the NHLPA if a team folds or not. In fact, it's probably in their best interest. If a team folds, they'll be moved to a traditional hockey market. This means no jobs lost with more money throw. Into the revenue pot.

It's the owners responsibility to worry about teams folding. But in reality, most owners would probably be on board with such a scenario. I'm pretty sure many owners would be thrilled to see a team like PHX get moved, it means more money in their pocket.

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12-02-2012, 04:13 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
The reason why Bettman went after the NHLPA by initiating this lockout, is not so much because he wanted parity among the teams, no, that is the propaganda meted out for our consumption, rather it is because he viewed the NHLPA as weak and that an attack on it would translate into additional profits. The game plan for the NHLPA to counter it, is to simply not let the NHL profit from this undertaking at all. So this year and maybe the next year is out. The long term benefit of this impasse when it is over will be that Bettman will no longer be making lockouts, and that he will be out of the job.
Nonsense. This isn't about the players weakness or Gary Bettman. The Players aren't weak. The deal they just had was the best in pro sports (in North America). This gets said often around here but I guess one more time wouldn't hurt: Gary Bettman works for the owners. This isn't about Gary Bettmans ego.

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Old
12-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Didn't both the NFL and NBA do just that?
And how many games did the NFL miss?

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12-02-2012, 04:46 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
If you have any source that NHL teams are committing accounting fraud, feel free to provide it.

A hunch on your part, you connecting the dots and a general "the truth is out there" feelings aren't that interesting to me. I need a bit more to discuss criminal activity as if it is happening.

And just to head this one off before the canyon. Yes, I have googled and no I can't find anything supporting your accusations.
Google "convicted nhl owners" or Alan eagleson

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12-02-2012, 04:49 PM
  #288
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Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl
Source,Meeting involving NHL Owners and Players to take place Tuesday with 6 Owners and approximately same number of players. #TSN

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12-02-2012, 04:55 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
This is one of the best posts in this thread and highlights a great point that isn't given enough weight: We can argue how much what owners are losing and how many franchises are not profitable. We can debate who is hiding money and projecting losses on to their teams through creative accounting. The black and white fact of the matter is, if the NHL as a whole was a healthy money making machine, there would never be a lockout. *most* of the owners are smart businessmen. That is how they got the money they have now. They would not just throw away a season's revenue to try to squeeze a few hundred million more from the players.

Some of them might to keep themselves from paying the freight for the teams losing money. We are talking about wealth transfer here, not ways to grow revenue. The revenue growth is in the wrong places, so you have the excess baggage that cannot keep up with costs. You have two options: take it from the players' share or take it from the rich teams.

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12-02-2012, 05:04 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl
Source,Meeting involving NHL Owners and Players to take place Tuesday with 6 Owners and approximately same number of players. #TSN
Yeah, I just heard that on TSN. Good stuff

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12-02-2012, 05:07 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsThanatos View Post
Google "convicted nhl owners" or Alan eagleson
I don't think I have the imagination to connect the dots between Eagleson or previous owners of the teams and claiming that current NHL teams are cooking the books to defraud the players and NHL in a cap system.

This is where you have to help me. Explain the link to us.


Last edited by Killion: 12-02-2012 at 05:21 PM. Reason: plz, no need for condescension.
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Old
12-02-2012, 05:12 PM
  #292
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So the NHL owners in the room for Tuesday

Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl
NHL expects these owners to be in meeting: Ron Burkle, Mark Chipman, Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Larry Tanenbaum and Jeff Vinik.



I'm so disgusted I'm just going to stop talking about this joke of a league and its proxy for negotiations.

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12-02-2012, 05:14 PM
  #293
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Jacobs should be banned from these meetings...

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12-02-2012, 05:17 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
So the NHL owners in the room for Tuesday

Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl
NHL expects these owners to be in meeting: Ron Burkle, Mark Chipman, Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Larry Tanenbaum and Jeff Vinik.



I'm so disgusted I'm just going to stop talking about this joke of a league and its proxy for negotiations.
But but Chipman and Jacobs on the same panel...it'll be chaos!!!

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12-02-2012, 05:22 PM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I don't think I have the imagination to connect the dots between Eagleson or previous owners of the teams and claiming that current NHL teams are cooking the books to defraud the players and NHL in a cap system.

This is where you have to help me. Explain the link to us. I hope it goes beyond bad men did bad things in the past so men now have to be bad and do bad things.
It's bad men did bad things while those currently involved were around and supported them.

Bettman's ticket prices are determined by player salaries nonsense?

I actually agree that uf there was huge cooking of books nhlpa would be going nuts but to assume everything is above board is ignoring the track record.

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Old
12-02-2012, 05:30 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by HabsThanatos View Post
It's bad men did bad things while those currently involved were around and supported them.
Who, doing what then and doing what now? I don't speak vague fluently.

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12-02-2012, 05:30 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
So the NHL owners in the room for Tuesday

Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl
NHL expects these owners to be in meeting: Ron Burkle, Mark Chipman, Murray Edwards, Jeremy Jacobs, Larry Tanenbaum and Jeff Vinik.



I'm so disgusted I'm just going to stop talking about this joke of a league and its proxy for negotiations.
My understanding is that this will not be a negotiating session.

That said, Jeff Vinik should balance out Mr. Jacobs. I suspect they've known each other for a while, since Mr. Vinik is from Boston and is a part owner of the Red Sox and their paths have likely crossed before, so perhaps Mr. Vinik can help keep him under some sort of control. He's the epitome of calm and sensible, a great choice for this meeting.

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12-02-2012, 05:32 PM
  #298
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I actually agree that uf there was huge cooking of books nhlpa would be going nuts but to assume everything is above board is ignoring the track record.
The league turned the books over to the PA at the beginning of the "negotiations," no? Wouldn't they have noticed if something was awry?

No question there's creative accounting. It's done in every business. Highly doubtful it's illegal, tho.

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12-02-2012, 05:36 PM
  #299
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Jacobs is there to make sure the other owners toe the company line. What a joke. Goodbye season

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12-02-2012, 05:37 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
The league turned the books over to the PA at the beginning of the "negotiations," no? Wouldn't they have noticed if something was awry?

No question there's creative accounting. It's done in every business. Highly doubtful it's illegal, tho.
Exactly. Teams are of course trying to declare as low HRR as possible, within the rules. Anything else would get them into a world of hurt from not only NHLPA but also Bettman. I mean, Bettman was threatening Dolan having to sell the Rangers over a website conflict. That's nothing compared to trying to scam the league.

If there are grey zones that need to be clarified, I think it would be in the interest of both parties to do so.

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