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Old
12-02-2012, 11:30 AM
  #501
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
owners taking financial risks : fact
players not taking any : claim (at the very least, they do to try to reach their gioal)
But they aren't taking a financial risk year in and year out once they reached the NHL.
The life/choice''risk'' they make growing up hoping to find success in their career path is no different than anybody else's.
You took a risk going to school and pursuing studies in whatever field was of interest to you. You invested your time, and money for attending, books, essentials such as paper and pens, and eventually laptops. All this without any guarantee of success.
Sometimes, people even struggle to find success despite graduating due to saturated fields.

I look at those decisions as life choices, not risks, and it's not because you have to pay to attend school and for the material/equipment that it falls into a financial risk category (or any risk at all).

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Old
12-02-2012, 11:31 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Players lose out financially the majority of the time when they don't make it, rendering it a financial risk.

FACT, not a claim.

Yes I already know what you're going to say "they've only lost five to ten years of their lives, and they can still be RICH".

****

Owners don't pay for everything hockey-related within a team, the fans pay for most of it. Owners are intermediaries who process the fans' expenses into hockey expenses and take a median 3 million dollar annual cut as compensation for services rendered.

There is no owner in this league or any other that I'm aware of "paying for all hockey expenses".

Let me know how many times you need this point explained to you.
I was going to write something but I just need to quote him instead of essentially writing the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I guess the owners of any business no longer take inancial risks, then. McDonald's owners don't pay anything, the people who eat there do;gas station owners don't pay anything, the owners of vehicles needing gas do;book publishers don't pay anything, it is all covered by people who buy books;etc... Is that really your argument?

The owners put up the cash for everything from hot dog sales people to player salaries. IF enough fans follow the team and spend money on it, THEN the owners recover what they spent and THEN they MIGHT make a profit. It is called running a business. The owners take all of the risks because they pay everything and hope fans spend enough to cover what the owner is paying.

Let me know how many more times you need this simple fact explained to you.

Again, the player takes the same risk as anyone else perusing a career that they may or may not achieve. Once the player hits the NHL, he no longer takes financial risks related to HRR. He does his job and gets very well compensated for it. He takes the same risk as most employees, but with far greater financial protections than most other people. It is not the same kind of financial risk constantly being explained to you that the owners take. Players pay nothing, owners pay everything. Fans, hopefully, support their team to a point where it stays profitable and remains in the city it started in.
Your stubborness on the matter is scary. You discredit every single business in the world because they rely on consumption from the public. It's retarded.

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Old
12-02-2012, 12:33 PM
  #503
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So many debate champions but still no NHL. I just want hockey back.

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Old
12-02-2012, 02:06 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I guess the owners of any business no longer take inancial risks, then. McDonald's owners don't pay anything, the people who eat there do;gas station owners don't pay anything, the owners of vehicles needing gas do;book publishers don't pay anything, it is all covered by people who buy books;etc... Is that really your argument?

The owners put up the cash for everything from hot dog sales people to player salaries. IF enough fans follow the team and spend money on it, THEN the owners recover what they spent and THEN they MIGHT make a profit. It is called running a business. The owners take all of the risks because they pay everything and hope fans spend enough to cover what the owner is paying.

Let me know how many more times you need this simple fact explained to you.
Do you understand how McDonalds operates because I don't think you do. They sell 20 year leases to owner/operators who have to put up a million or two of their own money to build a restaurant where McDonalds tell them to and make a return in the next 20 years. After 20 years their investment goes to zero. Exactly how is McDonalds taking a risk here?

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12-02-2012, 02:47 PM
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But they aren't taking a financial risk year in and year out once they reached the NHL.
The life/choice''risk'' they make growing up hoping to find success in their career path is no different than anybody else's.
You took a risk going to school and pursuing studies in whatever field was of interest to you. You invested your time, and money for attending, books, essentials such as paper and pens, and eventually laptops. All this without any guarantee of success.
Sometimes, people even struggle to find success despite graduating due to saturated fields.

I look at those decisions as life choices, not risks, and it's not because you have to pay to attend school and for the material/equipment that it falls into a financial risk category (or any risk at all).
a life choice is a risk. Any choice is a risk. Actually anything we ever do on this planet is a "risk".

Point being, the players should not be factored into the finical risks taken by the league, aka spending based on future speculation of revenues. (aka teams with no market)


Last edited by uiCk: 12-02-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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12-02-2012, 02:50 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
So many debate champions but still no NHL. I just want hockey back.
Ding Ding Ding !!!

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Old
12-02-2012, 04:44 PM
  #507
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Talk is Bettman and Jacobs wouldn't let Dolan meet with the players.

Pathetic.

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12-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But they aren't taking a financial risk year in and year out once they reached the NHL.
The life/choice''risk'' they make growing up hoping to find success in their career path is no different than anybody else's.
You took a risk going to school and pursuing studies in whatever field was of interest to you. You invested your time, and money for attending, books, essentials such as paper and pens, and eventually laptops. All this without any guarantee of success.
Sometimes, people even struggle to find success despite graduating due to saturated fields.

I look at those decisions as life choices, not risks, and it's not because you have to pay to attend school and for the material/equipment that it falls into a financial risk category (or any risk at all).
Owners apparently don't make these "life choices" they take "risks" and everyone else just makes "life choices".

I guess separating the two makes it easy for people like you to avoid the hypocrisy and say "well he made a life choice that went bad so **** him, I make life choices everyday." at the same time you say "Owners are taking a big risk here so they deserve whatever they want."

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:07 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Owners apparently don't make these "life choices" they take "risks" and everyone else just makes "life choices".
Thank you for stating it so succinctly.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:08 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
The owners put up the cash for everything from hot dog sales people to player salaries. IF enough fans follow the team and spend money on it, THEN the owners recover what they spent and THEN they MIGHT make a profit. It is called running a business. The owners take all of the risks because they pay everything and hope fans spend enough to cover what the owner is paying.
Well it appears to me there are teams that seem to thrive under this business model, and others that are suffering, badly. What it seems like is that the NHL is trying to find a way to save those franchises, who are suffering due to poor business decisions (such as putting a hockey team in a desert) by asking the PLAYERS to take less money, instead of asking the owners to fix their own damn problems themselves.

But you see, the NHL will never go to Geoff Molson and say "hey, you make too much money, you need to give us some so we can bail out the other teams" because at the end of the day, the owners are not a single group, but rather 30 competing and seperate businesses. Sure, they claim to "revenue share" even though the NHL's concept of revenue sharing is not even remotely close to what other leagues have in place.

The players, on the other hand, ARE a single group. Which is why negotiating between both sides simply doesn't work. The owners want all the benefits of being a single entity but none of disadvantages.

I also find it kind of funny how we are trying to ensure that businesses make money despite how poorly they are run. In what world does a business owner operate in a system that guarantees him a profit?

Finally, let's stop pretending these owners are bleeding money. Yes, some franchises operate at a loss, but the rate at which the franchise values are increasing more than makes up for what they declare as operating losses. They are still making a lot of money with these franchises.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:09 PM
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Talk is Bettman and Jacobs wouldn't let Dolan meet with the players.

Pathetic.
Of course not. Guys like Dolan and Molson don't want a lockout.

Dolan is showing KHL games on his TV network as a big FU to Bettman. I love this guy.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:12 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Owners apparently don't make these "life choices" they take "risks" and everyone else just makes "life choices".

I guess separating the two makes it easy for people like you to avoid the hypocrisy and say "well he made a life choice that went bad so **** him, I make life choices everyday." at the same time you say "Owners are taking a big risk here so they deserve whatever they want."
It is amazing how many apologists for the plutocracy there are.

As an aside, I own my own business and wages take approx. 20% of revenues. The difference in skill level between my employees and NHL players is extreme.

I firmly believe that the NHL needs a revenue sharing plan as follows:
  • Broadcast revenue is shared equally among all teams.
  • Revenue from licensing deals - everything from jerseys to posters to team-logo beer coolers - is also shared evenly among all teams.
  • Gate revenue is split where the home team keeps 60 percent for each game, while the visiting team gets 40 percent.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #513
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Owners apparently don't make these "life choices" they take "risks" and everyone else just makes "life choices".

I guess separating the two makes it easy for people like you to avoid the hypocrisy and say "well he made a life choice that went bad so **** him, I make life choices everyday." at the same time you say "Owners are taking a big risk here so they deserve whatever they want."
The problem is you guys are incapable of classifying these risks or life choices.

You're comparing the risks (or life choice) a 16yo boy takes as opposed to the multimiliion dollars being spent by an owner every year.
There is a difference, a huge one.

The risk that theses kids take that is being discussed is no different than the risk these owners take when they pursued their careers.

I call it a life choice instead of a risk because these kids make a conscience decision to pursue a career path. It is no different than the life choice other kids make at the same age for different careers (including the owners at their young age).
Once they make it, there is no money coming out of their pockets. They don't pay to be part of the league, they don't even pay for their equipment.
An owner however, has no choice but to spend money. He is even required by the rules to spend a minimum of millions and millions of dollars. There is no guarantee of return on his spending.
You guys like to talk a lot about the poor guys that try to reach but fail, but how is that any different than any other person that spends time and money pursuing a career that unfortunately doesn't work?


Also, I never said owners deserve whatever they want. That could not be further than the truth. Seriously, it feels like I'm in politics and the opposing camp simply make stuff up about what I said in order to prove a point.
I said I see nothing wrong in them wanting a 50-50 split effective immediately. That means a rollback, so be it. I also said that IN THE NHL, they are the ones taking the FINANCIAL RISKS.
Something, very, very, very simple to understand. Not surprisingly, the ones that are trying to argue against that (still don't see why anybody would argue against that..) are the most vocal opponents of the owners.
Despite your attempts (along with another poster or two) to make it seem as if I actually support the owners, you've failed miserably. I've been constant in my train of thoughts. I've said all along that both sides are wrong, none will ''win'', and both have handled this poorly. I said that a loss of the year would end up costing more to the players than a 12% rollback would. So, cutting the losses short is all there is left to do at this point.

I've tried to show this by using various examples in the current world, but instead of understanding what the idea meant, focus was placed on the examples, and moronic assumptions were made.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
It is amazing how many apologists for the plutocracy there are.

As an aside, I own my own business and wages take approx. 20% of revenues. The difference in skill level between my employees and NHL players is extreme.

I firmly believe that the NHL needs a revenue sharing plan as follows:
  • Broadcast revenue is shared equally among all teams.
  • Revenue from licensing deals - everything from jerseys to posters to team-logo beer coolers - is also shared evenly among all teams.
  • Gate revenue is split where the home team keeps 60 percent for each game, while the visiting team gets 40 percent.
You can't just make these up these decisions. We don't know the books of all the NHL teams. We don't know much of anything about the real business behind the league.

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily. I just think that there's a lot more to running a billion dollar industry than three little points.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You can't just make these up these decisions. We don't know the books of all the NHL teams. We don't know much of anything about the real business behind the league.

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily. I just think that there's a lot more to running a billion dollar industry than three little points.
Look at the revenue sharing systems in place in the NFL.

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12-02-2012, 06:59 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You can't just make these up these decisions. We don't know the books of all the NHL teams. We don't know much of anything about the real business behind the league.

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily. I just think that there's a lot more to running a billion dollar industry than three little points.
Definately more. But if you're asking the players to go to 50/50 plus contract limits, signing bonus changes, etc. then you're going to have to give something in return. I see the aforementioned revenue sharing plan as a big step in that direction.

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12-02-2012, 08:27 PM
  #517
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I call it a life choice instead of a risk because these kids make a conscience decision to pursue a career path.
Which is exactly what the owners do when they buy a team: it's a conscious decision to pursue a career path. If Molson hadn't risked his 140 million on the Habs+Bell Center he would have risked it on something else: treasury bills, real estate, buying up more Molson-Coors stock, gold bullion, etc.

There are 29 owners investing their money, just as thousands of young potential players invest their time. Time and money are equivalent.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-02-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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12-02-2012, 08:30 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Definately more. But if you're asking the players to go to 50/50 plus contract limits, signing bonus changes, etc. then you're going to have to give something in return. I see the aforementioned revenue sharing plan as a big step in that direction.
That's the way I see it.

The players get 76% of HRR in a free market, but with a lower percentage and more parity, the game probably does better, grows faster, and they get a smaller slice of a bigger pie.

It works out for the players: up to a point. If the players are going to make sacrifice to invest in the game, i.e. if they're taking the financial risk of taking 50% when they could get 76% in a free market, than the owners should invest in parity as well.

Right now, the owners are asking the players to lose a cumulative 240 million in annual revenue per year (assuming 3.3 billion in total annual hockey-related revenue), even though they themselves only want to contribute 40 million more per year in revenue sharing. That is ridiculous -- 86% of the concessions are expected to come from the players !!!

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12-02-2012, 10:18 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Which is exactly what the owners do when they buy a team: it's a conscious decision to pursue a career path. If Molson hadn't risked his 140 million on the Habs+Bell Center he would have risked it on something else: treasury bills, real estate, buying up more Molson-Coors stock, gold bullion, etc.

There are 29 owners investing their money, just as thousands of young potential players invest their time. Time and money are equivalent.
Let's just stop going in circles and leave it to a disagreement.

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Old
12-03-2012, 01:53 AM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But they aren't taking a financial risk year in and year out once they reached the NHL.
The life/choice''risk'' they make growing up hoping to find success in their career path is no different than anybody else's.
You took a risk going to school and pursuing studies in whatever field was of interest to you. You invested your time, and money for attending, books, essentials such as paper and pens, and eventually laptops. All this without any guarantee of success.
Sometimes, people even struggle to find success despite graduating due to saturated fields.

I look at those decisions as life choices, not risks, and it's not because you have to pay to attend school and for the material/equipment that it falls into a financial risk category (or any risk at all).
you may not know or dont want to, but those kids who became (or tried at least) had to do both, play hockey and go to school.

ad buying a NHL team is a life choice too (really, that's what your pro owner arguments are, life choice ?? lol).

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12-03-2012, 05:56 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you may not know or dont want to, but those kids who became (or tried at least) had to do both, play hockey and go to school.

ad buying a NHL team is a life choice too (really, that's what your pro owner arguments are, life choice ?? lol).
Yes, believe it or not, but most kids go to school and have extra curricular activities. Some end up focusing on these activities more so than school, and others choose the studies. Same damn thing.

Are you saying this is the same risk as someone investing millions in real estate, or stocks, or a company?

What are you guys even trying to argue?

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12-03-2012, 06:13 AM
  #522
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Yes, believe it or not, but most kids go to school and have extra curricular activities. Some end up focusing on these activities more so than school, and others choose the studies. Same damn thing.

Are you saying this is the same risk as someone investing millions in real estate, or stocks, or a company?

What are you guys even trying to argue?
No of course not.

When job creators invest millions, they set up the bedrock, the foundations on which all of society is built.



Money, and the people who control it, are what we owe all of our living standards to, not the human mind, not the labour of people, nor their sweat or sacrifice or ingenuity.

Who is John Galt?

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12-03-2012, 06:52 AM
  #523
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No of course not.

When job creators invest millions, they set up the bedrock, the foundations on which all of society is built.



Money, and the people who control it, are what we owe all of our living standards to, not the human mind, not the labour of people, nor their sweat or sacrifice or ingenuity.

Who is John Galt?
Wow dude..

I know it's tough for you to admit owners are the ones taking all the financial risk IN THE NHL, but now you've lost it completely.

You making these political comments shows just how little you know about me.

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12-03-2012, 07:28 AM
  #524
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
It is amazing how many apologists for the plutocracy there are.

As an aside, I own my own business and wages take approx. 20% of revenues.
[/LIST]
Yeah I too don't give a **** about the owners either, but it looks like at wages 20% you're pulling some massive low wage ****.

Let me guess: Must be food and beverage, Branded for tourists and Americans who want a burger, with very high rent. The Hong Kong model: Pay the landlord, not the staff. You in Asia by any chance? The flag says you are, but in Japan.

Only way you do that in Japan is you run a Hard Rock cafe, and you hire Philipinas as wait staff. Cus no Japanese are gonna wait tables at Hard Rock. Surprised your staff are getting visas in Japan.

Bet I'm not far off though. Or then again, maybe I'm talking ****.


Last edited by bsl: 12-03-2012 at 07:39 AM.
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12-03-2012, 07:44 AM
  #525
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a life choice is a risk. Any choice is a risk. Actually anything we ever do on this planet is a "risk".
That's why I no longer go outside, or use the shower, or oven, or the stairs. It's too risky. Home accidents. I will cheat Death. I know it.

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