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Owner-Player meeting only, no Bettman or Fehr (UPD: 12/4 in NYC)

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12-02-2012, 06:33 PM
  #376
Boltsfan2029
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Damian Cristodero ‏@LightningTimes

Lecavalier on Vinik participation: "I'm happy he's going. He's a guy who will listen, talk, have a conversation and see where things go"

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12-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #377
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According to Aaron Ward NHLPA asked for the same Mediators to be present for this negotiation and the NHL declined. I'm not sure why the NHL would decline this... thoughts?

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12-02-2012, 06:42 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The owners are fighting the players over who gets to pay for their poor management decisions and poor market selection & support/development. Of course, being very astute businessmen, they're going to try to make the players pay for most of it.
How do they pay for it when they are getting $0 atm and are on track to get $0 going forward? All we have right now is a bunch of entertainers arguing with a bunch of arena owners over how to divide up $3.3b dollars they are going to make from the big shows they plan to put on together.

If the players want 100% guaranteed cash either

* let Bettman set the cap at whatever he wants so long as they get paid in full

* suggest a workable system without escrow the NHL will accept

* decertify

The players don't know what they are at the moment. One day they are fighting the owners of the dark satanic mills of 17th century England for safety guards to stop 9 year olds getting sucked into cotton gin machinery. The next they are Lady Gaga, Brittany Spears, Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian - with managers and lawyers arguing over appearance fees.

If the players are serious they should decertify. The top 10% trying to convince the bottom guys to risk their jobs completely so the top 10% can live it up is going to be tough sell, democracy sucks.

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12-02-2012, 06:48 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by KPower View Post
This meeting is no different than the previous meetings.

Daly and fehr....lol

Just cancel the season already.
This

They took half a week to organize a meeting that's the same as every other meeting they've had so far. Daly and lil' Fehr have met and talked before. This is nothing special. If the NHLPA didn't want to do a special owners/players meeting, just say so straight away. They're playing games on a ridiculous level.

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12-02-2012, 06:49 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by HabsThanatos View Post
So if Daly and Steve fehr are there how is this any different than other sessions where they didn't attend?
Both sides agreed to change the table cloth cloth colour. Players wanted red, owners wanted blue - they compromised on purple. The only compromise of the day.

This is a distinct improvement on previous meetings where the players decided they wanted red and owners decided they wanted red. The owners got their first and laid out their cloth and refused to use any other colour. The players objected on principle to using red since the owners wanted it, and would only stay and negotiate if they were allowed to cut large holes in the the owners table cloth. The owners immediately packed up their table cloth and went home.


Last edited by me2: 12-02-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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12-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
According to Aaron Ward NHLPA asked for the same Mediators to be present for this negotiation and the NHL declined. I'm not sure why the NHL would decline this... thoughts?
Because the point is to have communication between the actual players and the actual owners, not figureheads, not mediators (which obviously didn't work last week).

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12-02-2012, 06:54 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Because the point is to have communication between the actual players and the actual owners, not figureheads, not mediators (which obviously didn't work last week).
But if the mediators are central parties, what problem could it possibly cause?

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12-02-2012, 06:55 PM
  #383
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As a Bruins plan please get Jacobs the **** out of there.

"There" refers to the meeting and ownership.

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12-02-2012, 07:01 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
According to Aaron Ward NHLPA asked for the same Mediators to be present for this negotiation and the NHL declined. I'm not sure why the NHL would decline this... thoughts?
It's probably going to be hard to get mediators doing anything useful, they'll just end up in the way meddling with the conversation by trynig to focus it through themselves rather than a Q&A. There needs to be more direct player-owner interaction not less, both sides putting their cases directly to each other and trying to make an impression more than get distracted into sideline talks on minor issues. I'm hoping this leads to both sides going away and having a rethink from the other sides position.

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12-02-2012, 07:05 PM
  #385
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As a Bruins plan please get Jacobs the **** out of there.

"There" refers to the meeting and ownership.
Does he have that much clout with the Board?? I know he the main govenor on the board, but you would think the other guys would be able to put him in his place, if needed?

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12-02-2012, 07:05 PM
  #386
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How do they pay for it when they are getting $0 atm and are on track to get $0 going forward? All we have right now is a bunch of entertainers arguing with a bunch of arena owners over how to divide up $3.3b dollars they are going to make from the big shows they plan to put on together.

If the players want 100% guaranteed cash either

* let Bettman set the cap at whatever he wants so long as they get paid in full

* suggest a workable system without escrow the NHL will accept

* decertify

The players don't know what they are at the moment. One day they are fighting the owners of the dark satanic mills of 17th century England for safety guards to stop 9 year olds getting sucked into cotton gin machinery. The next they are Lady Gaga, Brittany Spears, Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian - with managers and lawyers arguing over appearance fees.
The only way the players can ensure they get paid in full is if there's no full linkage. They could set the cap at the MP instead of above it, and change the floor (so it's 20m/X% below or something like that). But anything that has some fluctuation, and a specific split needs escrow (or some other mechanism to ensure each side gets their exact share).

Or as you said, allow Bettman to set the cap at some arbitrary number... however that has it's own issues... had they allowed Bettman to do that last time around, we would be in the same situation... except that it would have happened last summer as the PA would not have extended the CBA by a season. So instead of the NHL locking out the players due to the NHL not liking the agreement, the NHL would have locked the players out due to the PA not liking the existing agreement.

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12-02-2012, 07:11 PM
  #387
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Jacobs shouldn't be there. It's basically like having Bettman in the room.

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12-02-2012, 07:32 PM
  #388
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Say what you want about how this is a meaningless meeting by having lil Fehr and Daly but it was the right choice for the players.

It would be incredibly stupid to have the players go in alone, they would be negotiating with people that have significantly more business experience.

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12-02-2012, 07:39 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by melinko View Post
It would be incredibly stupid to have the players go in alone, they would be negotiating with people that have significantly more business experience.
OK, I'll ask again here - the only references I've seen to this meeting is that it's a discussion only and that there will be no negotiating. I can't find anything to indicate that the stance on that has changed. I can't find the Tweet that says no negotiating, either, so I'm just trying to figure out what they're actually going to be doing in this meeting.

Part of Fehr's official statement is "We hope that this meeting will be constructive and lead to a dialogue that will help us find a way to reach an agreement. That doesn't sound like actual negotiating to me.

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12-02-2012, 08:01 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
OK, I'll ask again here - the only references I've seen to this meeting is that it's a discussion only and that there will be no negotiating. I can't find anything to indicate that the stance on that has changed. I can't find the Tweet that says no negotiating, either, so I'm just trying to figure out what they're actually going to be doing in this meeting.

Part of Fehr's official statement is "We hope that this meeting will be constructive and lead to a dialogue that will help us find a way to reach an agreement. That doesn't sound like actual negotiating to me.
They aren't going in there to ask each other how their families are, or to see who's asking for the Wii-U for xmas.

The are going to be talking about the issues that divide them and there is nothing to talk about if they aren't negotiating.

It won't be "real" negotiations but any perceived weakness in the discussions will absolutely matter when the "real" meetings start again.

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12-02-2012, 08:02 PM
  #391
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I think this might be the last attempt by the players for discussion before decert/whatever it is similar. If this meeting is somewhat productive-at the very least giving both sides to think about, then maybe they meet later this week for some negotiation.

If this meeting goes south, however, and a bad taste is left in the mouth, I think the players decert, and then at that point the owners, if they're prepared to fight, will at point cancel the season.

Either way though, on Dec 15 two more weeks (at least) will get cancelled IMO. A week and a half is not enough time to suddenly get a deal done.

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12-02-2012, 08:03 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
OK, I'll ask again here - the only references I've seen to this meeting is that it's a discussion only and that there will be no negotiating. I can't find anything to indicate that the stance on that has changed. I can't find the Tweet that says no negotiating, either, so I'm just trying to figure out what they're actually going to be doing in this meeting.

Part of Fehr's official statement is "We hope that this meeting will be constructive and lead to a dialogue that will help us find a way to reach an agreement. That doesn't sound like actual negotiating to me.
It's supposed to be an open form where the owners can actually speak - with Daly there, I'm not sure this will be the case however. The owners will try to explain why we NEED the players to take a pay cut and here is why the NEED to change contractual rights etc... They will argue it's for the betterment of the NHL as a whole and an informal Q&A.

The PA will argue they shouldn't HAVE to give up anything as they gave up enough is the past. Also they feel bullied and why isn't the ownership willing to throw a bone.

This won't get much done, however, there is a nice mix of ownership in the room... that being said, I'm surprised NYR isn't there.

IMO The sole purpose was/is to get Fehr out the room and a PR stunt to show the NHL is trying to come to an agreement so they can use in court should the PA file for decertification.

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12-02-2012, 08:06 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by melinko View Post
They aren't going in there to ask each other how their families are, or to see who's asking for the Wii-U for xmas.

The are going to be talking about the issues that divide them and there is nothing to talk about if they aren't negotiating.

It won't be "real" negotiations but any perceived weakness in the discussions will absolutely matter when the "real" meetings start again.
I agree with this, though I think depending on the meetings go-one side or the other feeling "dissed" will mean we won't even see "real" meetings for a long time: NHL "cancel season" Players "decertify"

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12-02-2012, 08:07 PM
  #394
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So who's calling whos bluff here.

Seems like if Fehr is fanaticizing the players then his efforts at spindoctoring could be exposed. I suppose if he did not agree to having players/owners meet it would be construed the same way.

The league is also guilty of the same type of spin to a certain extent but I feel Fehr has the most to lose. If they able to reach common ground then what does that say about Fehr/Bettman?

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12-02-2012, 08:09 PM
  #395
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Jacobs shouldn't be there. It's basically like having Bettman in the room.
Worse, really since Bettman I think deep down knows what kind of damage missing a season this time would mean but Jacobs is a piece of **** that doesn't care.

Like someone on the Devils board just suggested, the PA should have a player from each organization to counter the owners (say Crosby to the Pittsburgh guy or one of the guys Jacobs just signed like Lucic for Boston), and ask them point-blank 'why won't you pay me the money owed on my contracts'?.

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12-02-2012, 08:10 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So who's calling whos bluff here.

Seems like if Fehr is fanaticizing the players then his efforts at spindoctoring could be exposed. I suppose if he did not agree to having players/owners meet it would be construed the same way.

The league is also guilty of the same type of spin to a certain extent but I feel Fehr has the most to lose. If they able to reach common ground then what does that say about Fehr/Bettman?
He certainly does. What can the NHL possibly lose with Daly and Jacobs in the room? NHL believes that Fehr isn't passing along the whole story as I believe they expected the PA to cave already - as did I. I think this is a last move by the NHL before they move a bit on their demands IMO.

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12-02-2012, 08:26 PM
  #397
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this is going to go nowhere fast. The meeting will start, Jacobs will stand up and demand the players accept the NHL offer " as is and do it now"
the players will be stunned at this instant attack and not answer, Jacobs will slam his fist down and say "well that's it, SEASON OVER, and the next NHL proposal will be be for the players to accept the original 43% and right now or else next season wont happen at all also " you players will learn who's the boss around here" The group of owners walk out slamming the door behind them into the next room, they all sit down in old leather chairs, light up BIG FAT CIGARS and pouring themselves 100 year old scotch and congratulating themselves on the American way of negotiation.

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12-02-2012, 08:33 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by melinko View Post
They aren't going in there to ask each other how their families are, or to see who's asking for the Wii-U for xmas.

The are going to be talking about the issues that divide them and there is nothing to talk about if they aren't negotiating.
Without resorting to sarcasm, it's perfectly possible for them to explain their stances on the issues without negotiating a thing. The owners can explain why they feel certain contract issues should be changed and how it would help to do so. The players can counter with why they feel it would work better without them. I think they're just going to try to get a better understanding of each other's positions without the adversarial negotiation atmosphere. Perhaps if the sides understand each other better they can go back to their brethren, tell them what they've learned and allow the negotiating committees to approach things with a better grasp on why certain things are being sought and better ways to compromise on those issues that will benefit both sides.

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12-02-2012, 08:34 PM
  #399
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On the players side I would like to see:

Parros...princeton
Westgarth...princeton
Miller...very outspoken with regards to de-cert...and a top tier player
Crosby...best player in the league
Darche...McGill University
Hainsey...has attended most of the bargaining sessions
Mayers...veteran who has gone through lockouts before...veteran voice
Hamerlik...devils advocate
DiPietro...hasn't played in the last 4 yrs so must have done something productive with his time...very outspoken
Backes...well spoken NHLPA committee member
Aucoin...one of the oldest players in the league who has gone through 3 lockouts

I would love to see the NHLPA invite Snider and Dolan to the meetings as well. Lastly, I would pay money to see Parros and Westgarth corner Jacobs and treat him like any other opponent (beat down)

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12-02-2012, 08:40 PM
  #400
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700 guys on two continents, some even playing in other leagues? Maybe the PA is doing their due diligence and doesn't rush to decisions to placate the media and pro-NHL critics.



Like sign the NHL's offer to take a massive reduction in share AND give up major contracting rights? With your kind of negotiating, they could save themselves millions of dollars and not bother paying their association fees. Then again, if they just end up capitulating again, they'll lose a hell of a lot of money, credibility and may need to bring Saskin back to just organize the NHL's papers for them.
Whenever someone says that Fehr is controlling the message to the players the pro-PA crowd pops up with the "the players are always informed through their website/technology/cell phones". Either they are well informed or as you are saying here they aren't, which is it?

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