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12-02-2012, 07:17 PM
  #276
Frankie
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The picks were unknowns. Neither Burke nor Chiarelli knew where the picks would be.

Chiarelli said he thought the 1st one would be in the top 10 for sure, and I agree. It was pretty hard to picture the Leafs doing that well the next year.

However I doubt neither of them thought for a minute the pick would be top 3.

Surely the Leafs would beat the NYI, CLB, EDM, FLA and maybe a few others.

It was a perfect storm that led to the LEafs finishing 29th.

If the Seguin pick had been #4 or 5 instead of #2 this trade would be a huge success for Burke.

So to simplify the difference it would be like this:

You have Seguin, Knight(or someone else) and the #9 pick in the draft. Do you trade them for Kessel?
NO you don't.

BUt that isn't what was traded. The position of the picks were undetermined.

It was a gamble.
so what? the result is the same. both gms are responsible and accountable for the result of the trade.

the fact that draft picks were traded, and not the actual players, is totally irrelevant.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:18 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
we can't change anything that has happened. we can't control anything that might happen in the future.

so should we all just stop talking about the leafs?
There are a few that should. YES.

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12-02-2012, 07:20 PM
  #278
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so what? the result is the same. both gms are responsible and accountable for the result of the trade.

the fact that draft picks were traded, and not the actual players, is totally irrelevant.
No it isn't.

Burke never had the player to trade. He had picks. Futures. Unknowns.

Not players. He acquired an known entity for a few unknowns. Sure he got bit in the ass for it but that is besides the point.

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12-02-2012, 07:21 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Less.

If the team had perfromed well enough(relative term)to finish 27th or 28th, this trade would be considered a hands down win for the Leafs.

As I said earlier.

Burke doesn't coach and Burke doesn't play.
I find a flaw logic is this take.....people blame the lack of talent when Burke arrived as a reason for his lack of success and then on the same hand defend his decision at the time when making the trade as he believed his team would not finish where they did.

The if and could are gone.....the outcome of that trade is. Hamilton, Seguin, Knight for Kessel. Nothing changes that!

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12-02-2012, 07:21 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Team was in a playoff position FEB 23rd. before the collapse.

That is a definite sign of improvement. When in the previous 4 years had the Leafs even been close to the playoffs that late in the season.
the collaspe just usuaully happened in Oct/Nov the previous 2 seasons, this collapse isn't a new thing Burkes team's have never been able to play a full 82 game schedule without going into a major slump, just because it happened at the end of the season compared to the beginning doesn't really change anything over the last three season's.

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12-02-2012, 07:22 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Less.

If the team had perfromed well enough(relative term)to finish 27th or 28th, this trade would be considered a hands down win for the Leafs.

As I said earlier.

Burke doesn't coach and Burke doesn't play.
so the team's performance is no reflection of burke's work at all?

he'll never coach or play, so he's not responsible for any of the team's results?

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12-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I find a flaw logic is this take.....people blame the lack of talent when Burke arrived as a reason for his lack of success and then on the same hand defend his decision at the time when making the trade as he believed his team would not finish where they did.

The if and could are gone.....the outcome of that trade is. Hamilton, Seguin, Knight for Kessel. Nothing changes that!
BUt that wasn't the trade.

Please try to understand.

Was Seguin's name on the trade offer? NO
Was Knight's name on the trade offer? NO
Was Hamilton's name on the trad offer? NO

It was 3 picks for Kessel.

the team let Burke down by playing so poorly.

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12-02-2012, 07:24 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
There are a few that should. YES.
Does that line form behind you?

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12-02-2012, 07:26 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
the collaspe just usuaully happened in Oct/Nov the previous 2 seasons, this collapse isn't a new thing Burkes team's have never been able to play a full 82 game schedule without going into a major slump, just because it happened at the end of the season compared to the beginning doesn't really change anything over the last three season's.
So you're saying in the previous years, minus the Oct/Nov slump the LEafs played well enough to make the playoffs?

I doubt it. PLease do the research and prove me wrong.

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12-02-2012, 07:27 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Does that line form behind you?
I'm thinking more of the negative posters, but nice burn. Left myself open for it.

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12-02-2012, 07:27 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
No it isn't.

Burke never had the player to trade. He had picks. Futures. Unknowns.

Not players. He acquired an known entity for a few unknowns. Sure he got bit in the ass for it but that is besides the point.
that's some amazing logic. the real world doesn't work that way.

you're basically saying no gm is ever responsible for a trade they make.

burke traded draft picks, which are intangible. they're nothing. so you're saying burke got kessel for nothing. incredible.

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12-02-2012, 07:29 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
BUt that wasn't the trade.

Please try to understand.

Was Seguin's name on the trade offer? NO
Was Knight's name on the trade offer? NO
Was Hamilton's name on the trad offer? NO

It was 3 picks for Kessel.

the team let Burke down by playing so poorly.
I understand that you are avoiding the truth and that is the outcome of the trade and that falls on Burke's shoulders.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:29 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
LOL to funny....

Seguin is not going to be 21 years old until the end of Jan.....and what did he do as a 19/20 year old.

29 Goals 38 Assist for 67 total points as the teams leading scorer....I love how every points out that Kessel has no one to play with etc when discussing the trade and that Seguin is surround by talent....yet was the leading scorer as a 19/20 year old.

And how do you think he would have done at 19 had he been with the Leafs?

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12-02-2012, 07:30 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
so what? the result is the same. both gms are responsible and accountable for the result of the trade.

the fact that draft picks were traded, and not the actual players, is totally irrelevant.
If you want to evaluate things logically it's entirely relevant.

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12-02-2012, 07:30 PM
  #290
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so the team's performance is no reflection of burke's work at all?

he'll never coach or play, so he's not responsible for any of the team's results?
I've already danced this circle with Kinstonian84.

Sure burke has some responsibilty, but in the end he isn't the one coaching the special teams or actually playing the games.

Burke wasn't responsible for Kulemin being snakebit last year and missing 20 or 30 golden opportunities.

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12-02-2012, 07:32 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I understand that you are avoiding the truth and that is the outcome of the trade and that falls on Burke's shoulders.
And you are avoiding the truth and the Fact that when the trade was made the Names Knight, Seguin, and Hamilton were nowhere to be seen!

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12-02-2012, 07:35 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
Finally some bloody sanity, you are exactly right about this. You are spot on, Wilson opening his big mouth undermining the confidence of a good goalie. He gave up some weak ones but he was making some big stops to. Gus was starting to put it together and now detroit stole him. They are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.
I somewhat agree with this- I felt Wilson should have ran with Gus when Riemer was back from injury, Gus was finally learning to be consistent and was winning us several
games, no he wasn't anything special but he was solid, Wilson should have stuck with him instead of going to an ice cold Riemer, I really think that killed all the confidence Gus gained.

However, I really don't think Gus will amount to a #1 with any team in this league. Yes he has unreal skills espically his lateral movement but he is lacking something between the ears and that is something that cannot be fixed. I hope I'm wrogn about the guy but I just dont see #1 goalie material in him.

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12-02-2012, 07:37 PM
  #293
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I'm thinking more of the negative posters, but nice burn. Left myself open for it.
Look, I am not against anyone posting their opinion on here.....as that is the purpose of this board. I view your opinions as different then mine....not as negative opinions.

As a Leaf fan I did not agree to only see positives, I grew up and now I'm more critical of what the Leafs do. That does not make me any less a fan then when I was not critical of anything. I have become more of a realist. I have Leaf paraphernalia all over my home.....and likely always will.

Image this board if we all agreed.....boring!

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12-02-2012, 07:37 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
If you want to evaluate things logically it's entirely relevant.
no it isn't. the gm is still 100% responsible and accountable for the result.

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12-02-2012, 07:37 PM
  #295
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the team let Burke down by playing so poorly.

This is like saying "what came first the chicken or the egg?" really its both, Burke brought these players in and thats on him no dodging it. However the players also are professionals and they just sucked all around and that is on them for not living up to their potential.

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12-02-2012, 07:38 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I've already danced this circle with Kinstonian84.

Sure burke has some responsibilty, but in the end he isn't the one coaching the special teams or actually playing the games.

Burke wasn't responsible for Kulemin being snakebit last year and missing 20 or 30 golden opportunities.
in your opinion, what percentage of responsibility lies with the gm?

do you pick and choose what he's responsible for? let me guess, he's fully responsible for the things you see as positives, but not responsible for the negatives?

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12-02-2012, 07:40 PM
  #297
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that's some amazing logic. the real world doesn't work that way.

you're basically saying no gm is ever responsible for a trade they make.

burke traded draft picks, which are intangible. they're nothing. so you're saying burke got kessel for nothing. incredible.
Thanks for twisting my words. Twisting them rediculously, but twisted none the less.

The picks were unknowns. Hard to value an unknown. Can you value an unknown or two for us?

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12-02-2012, 07:40 PM
  #298
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no it isn't. the gm is still 100% responsible and accountable for the result.
This^^^^^^ I'm trying to come up with an example of how to explain this- It would be like a daycare owner hiring a worker, said worker goes on to abuse the kids at the centre. An investigation is formed and the worker is charged, but also the owner would be responsible too because he hired the worker for the daycare, I hope that example makes sense lol.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:42 PM
  #299
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the team let Burke down by playing so poorly.

This is like saying "what came first the chicken or the egg?" really its both, Burke brought these players in and thats on him no dodging it. However the players also are professionals and they just sucked all around and that is on them for not living up to their potential.
The Egg was laid.. What came out of it was a mutant of what laid it and that was a chicken.

No you your analogy does not make sense.

Do you disagree that the players performance on the ice in 09-10 was the direct reason that the LEafs finished 29th overall?

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12-02-2012, 07:44 PM
  #300
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no it isn't. the gm is still 100% responsible and accountable for the result.
Burke never played a ****ing shift.

How the hell is he responsible for what the team did on the ice?

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