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Owner-Player meeting only, no Bettman or Fehr (UPD: 12/4 in NYC)

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:41 PM
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
On the players side I would like to see:

Parros...princeton
Westgarth...princeton
Miller...very outspoken with regards to de-cert...and a top tier player
Crosby...best player in the league
Darche...McGill University
Hainsey...has attended most of the bargaining sessions
Mayers...veteran who has gone through lockouts before...veteran voice
Hamerlik...devils advocate
DiPietro...hasn't played in the last 4 yrs so must have done something productive with his time...very outspoken
Backes...well spoken NHLPA committee member
Aucoin...one of the oldest players in the league who has gone through 3 lockouts

I would love to see the NHLPA invite Snider and Dolan to the meetings as well. Lastly, I would pay money to see Parros and Westgarth corner Jacobs and treat him like any other opponent (beat down)
Good luck with that one. The strong will always over power the weak, and the smart will always over power the strong.

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12-02-2012, 07:51 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Beatle17 View Post
Whenever someone says that Fehr is controlling the message to the players the pro-PA crowd pops up with the "the players are always informed through their website/technology/cell phones". Either they are well informed or as you are saying here they aren't, which is it?

The NHLPA is the most informed union that the NHLPA has ever seen. They are 99.9% (Hamerlik, Nervirth) behind Fehr. Fehr is known for making decisions based on UNION MEMBERSHIP SUPPORT ONLY. He does not hide information. He has conf calls every week where players can ask any question that they want...ALL players are invited on the PA's dime to any and all bargaining sessions...the NHLPA SOURCE mobile link has marginal updates due to the fact that the media has hacked the site.

There is a reason that the NHL does not want Fehr in the meetings and it is because he is the ONLY person standing in the way of the owners getting everything that they want. FEHR stands up for his players best interests. He negotiates based on what is best for his players long term and short term benefit. And lastly he will change his plans if his players want him too...ie. the last proposal where players wanted to try and negotiate.

NHL just wants to have THEIR way and bully...problem is that they are matched up against a bigger bully!!!!!!! [mod]


Last edited by mouser: 12-02-2012 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Let the filter do its job, and let's maintain a mature conversation here.
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12-02-2012, 07:52 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Like sign the NHL's offer to take a massive reduction in share AND give up major contracting rights? With your kind of negotiating, they could save themselves millions of dollars and not bother paying their association fees. Then again, if they just end up capitulating again, they'll lose a hell of a lot of money, credibility and may need to bring Saskin back to just organize the NHL's papers for them.
My way of negotiating? How were you capable of interpreting my way of negotiating from what I said? I didn't say go to the table without Fehr and sign a deal that isn't desirable, but they need to find a way to get things going. Bettman is doing his best to split the PA and with them sitting around all quiet, I think it's working. There is a deal to be done here, having two subborn leaders is not helping.

The way I see it is the league is hurting themself because a lot of casual fans really don't care that we aren't watching hockey. The players are hurting themselves because I don't know many people who are behind them.

Do you truly believe a fair deal can't be made here? I do.

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12-02-2012, 07:52 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by bananaz View Post
Good luck with that one. The strong will always over power the weak, and the smart will always over power the strong.
Those were side hopes...never to be realized!

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12-02-2012, 08:00 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Right on all accounts.

See-- you're turn now. If you declare it, must be right.


What some of you cannot keep straight is that some people aren't arguing what's best for the players or a union, but perhaps disagreeing with the general management of the NHL, their systemic issues. I honestly do not care that 100 player jobs might disappear. If those jobs are a result of propping up failing businesses, they need to go.
I'm glad you seem to be conceding that eliminating teams struggling financially from the nhl would do nothing to help the players. In fact while you might not care that 100 player jobs disappear, I assure you that the league's fourth liners and bottom paring defencemen would care very much as most of them would lose their well-paying nhl jobs and face ahl salaries.

I'm also glad you are not in charge of the nhl, as using your philosophy any team struggling financially should be encouraged to move or go under. At one time or another in the last 20 years many teams including Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, New Jersey, NY Islanders (and others I may be forgetting) have faced severe economic challenges. In many cases the league helped in some way to keep them in their current cities, and many of them have since recovered economically and have become healthy members of the league.

I'm not saying I think the Phoenix Coyotes will become a healthy franchise in Arizona, but in general I do think encouraging franchises to remain in markets where possible is a much better option than encouraging them to fold or move whenever they become unprofitable.

And while you are free to disagree with the nhl's business model, the fact is that in the last 20 years under Bettman the nhl has increased its revenue more than almost any league anywhere (from 400 million in 1993 to over 3 Billion today).

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Let's say the weakest six teams cannot bring in more than $60 MM per year. (And yes, most of that $60 MM goes to players due to where the cap range is sitting at the moment.)

That's $360 MM of the NHL's $3.4 billion-- or 10%.

Revenue transfer, while not all going to just the six, was about 42% of that figure, just shy of $150 MM.

$360 MM - 150 (or soon to be $200MM) = $210 MM lost (or $160 MM if you use the new RS figure)
Ignoring your revenue numbers, which you acknowledge are hypothetical, your equation doesn't even make sense.

(Revenue of bottom 6 teams)-(Revenue Transfer) ≠ (Moneys lost)

What on earth do you even mean?

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12-02-2012, 08:04 PM
  #406
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Here's how this is going to go:

(1) None of the players who show up are going to have any chance of enlightening the owners.

(2) If the owners manage to enlighten the players, there will only be 6 of them there, and Don Fehr ask them to keep quiet.

Hooray.

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12-02-2012, 08:13 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
The NHLPA is the most informed union that the NHLPA has ever seen. They are 99.9% (Hamerlik, Nervirth) behind Fehr. Fehr is known for making decisions based on UNION MEMBERSHIP SUPPORT ONLY. He does not hide information. He has conf calls every week where players can ask any question that they want...ALL players are invited on the PA's dime to any and all bargaining sessions...the NHLPA SOURCE mobile link has marginal updates due to the fact that the media has hacked the site.

There is a reason that the NHL does not want Fehr in the meetings and it is because he is the ONLY person standing in the way of the owners getting everything that they want. FEHR stands up for his players best interests. He negotiates based on what is best for his players long term and short term benefit. And lastly he will change his plans if his players want him too...ie. the last proposal where players wanted to try and negotiate.

NHL just wants to have THEIR way and bully...problem is that they are matched up against a bigger bully!!!!!! [mod]
why shouldn't the NHL get to have it THEIR way? They are the ones who RUN the league. The players play in it. And it's not like they are offering something that smacks any player in the face. They are offering a heck of a good life to compete with and against the best players in the world. It only looks bad and makes them look like they are "bullying" because it's taking some away from what the players had before.. but in reality, what the players had before, not exactly fair if you're one of the guys running the entire business and making sure everything works. I haven't seen anything "unfair" about what the league has offered.


Last edited by mouser: 12-02-2012 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Qep
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Old
12-02-2012, 08:14 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Here's how this is going to go:

(1) None of the players who show up are going to have any chance of enlightening the owners.

(2) If the owners manage to enlighten the players, there will only be 6 of them there, and Don Fehr ask them to keep quiet.

Hooray.

Doesn't matter De-Cert is going to conf call tomorrow and to a vote by mid-week. NHLPA knows that this is just another BS tactic as was mediation...De-cert/Disclaimer is the only way for NHL to take NHLPA seriously!

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12-02-2012, 08:15 PM
  #409
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Replace Jacobs in the meeting with Molson and real progress can be made; any owner not Jacobs will allow progress to be made. Bring in owners who want the league to play. Bring in players all to be affected pretty greatly by the contract issues, with different backgrounds, and different markets of teams; Clearly Crosby will be present but what other 5 should be there?

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12-02-2012, 08:19 PM
  #410
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I expect the meeting to be heavily censored by Jacobs and Daly. I don't think the owners have the right to speak freely, even there.
If this will have any chance, Daly and Jacobs will have to allow others to speak. Otherwise the PA will call it out as a sham (and rightly so).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
OK, I'll ask again here - the only references I've seen to this meeting is that it's a discussion only and that there will be no negotiating. I can't find anything to indicate that the stance on that has changed. I can't find the Tweet that says no negotiating, either, so I'm just trying to figure out what they're actually going to be doing in this meeting.

Part of Fehr's official statement is "We hope that this meeting will be constructive and lead to a dialogue that will help us find a way to reach an agreement.Ē That doesn't sound like actual negotiating to me.
I don't think they'll be negotiating. More just seeing where each side is at. Last time around, through mediation they discovered the PA would accept a cap. Perhaps this time they can sort out why the league is looking for their contractual demands (maybe not a specific cap and less FA years, but to understand the reasoning). If each side can understand the other, perhaps they can find a way to move forward.

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12-02-2012, 08:21 PM
  #411
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Saw this on Alan Walsh's twitter page:

Quote:
@walsha: I hear NYR owner James Dolan wanted into the meeting in the worst way but Gary and Jacobs wouldn't let him in.

@walsha: The owners-players meeting will take place about a mile from MSG and NYR owner James Dolan is not allowed in. #BannedByBettman

@walsha: Dolan's already put out he wants in. Since he sued NHL, sent letter to other NHL owners demanding Bettman's firing, banned.
https://twitter.com/walsha

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12-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #412
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this is going to go nowhere fast. The meeting will start, Jacobs will stand up and demand the players accept the NHL offer " as is and do it now"
the players will be stunned at this instant attack and not answer, Jacobs will slam his fist down and say "well that's it, SEASON OVER, and the next NHL proposal will be be for the players to accept the original 43% and right now or else next season wont happen at all also " you players will learn who's the boss around here" The group of owners walk out slamming the door behind them into the next room, they all sit down in old leather chairs, light up BIG FAT CIGARS and pouring themselves 100 year old scotch and congratulating themselves on the American way of negotiation.
Jacobs will not do this. As bad as you think the guy is there is a reason they selected the owners they have to come to this thing. It is to show the moderates the players position for them to see for themselves and be stunned by. At least that would appear to be the plan, this is not an attempt to bully, if it was the owners would be different. Now what should really scare the players is two hours in Vinik or Chipman slam their fist on the table. That is probably Jacobs and Bettman's end game. Of course assuming they don't think meaningful movement is possible.

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12-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
On the players side I would like to see:

Parros...princeton
Westgarth...princeton
Miller...very outspoken with regards to de-cert...and a top tier player
Crosby...best player in the league
Darche...McGill University
Hainsey...has attended most of the bargaining sessions
Mayers...veteran who has gone through lockouts before...veteran voice
Hamerlik...devils advocate
DiPietro...hasn't played in the last 4 yrs so must have done something productive with his time...very outspoken
Backes...well spoken NHLPA committee member
Aucoin...one of the oldest players in the league who has gone through 3 lockouts
Something to keep in mind... players having received degree's from top schools doesn't make them smart. Crosby is an amazing player... however same goes for him. I'd like to see some new faces in there. I'd also like to see Jacobs gone. It doesn't bother me that little Fehr and Daley are there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
The NHLPA is the most informed union that the NHLPA has ever seen. They are 99.9% (Hamerlik, Nervirth) behind Fehr.
Really? Because only two players have really spoken out against Fehr, the rest all stand behind him? You're dreaming if you think that's the case. There's going to be a lot more who fall into their group who are afraid to speak out. Look at the backlash that Hamerlik received from his own teammates. Now imagine you're a younger and/or less established player... I would suspect that there's at least 20-30% that would have signed the last couple of NHL offers.

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12-02-2012, 08:32 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Saw this on Alan Walsh's twitter page:

https://twitter.com/walsha
It's also interesting that none of the big-market US teams besides the Bruins are represented. It's not just Dolan that's shut out, there's no Ed Snider, no Mike Ilitch, no Rocky Wirtz. At least Larry Tanenbaum's there, so there's at least one rich team at the table, but given how quiet the Leafs have been through all of this I'm not sure what contribution he'll make.

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12-02-2012, 08:41 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Something to keep in mind... players having received degree's from top schools doesn't make them smart. Crosby is an amazing player... however same goes for him. I'd like to see some new faces in there. I'd also like to see Jacobs gone. It doesn't bother me that little Fehr and Daley are there...



Really? Because only two players have really spoken out against Fehr, the rest all stand behind him? You're dreaming if you think that's the case. There's going to be a lot more who fall into their group who are afraid to speak out. Look at the backlash that Hamerlik received from his own teammates. Now imagine you're a younger and/or less established player... I would suspect that there's at least 20-30% that would have signed the last couple of NHL offers.
Suspect all you want the truth is 2 players of 750 have spoken out

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12-02-2012, 08:42 PM
  #416
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Hard to see how much Tanenbaum really speaks for the Leafs anyhow, given recent ownership changes.

I really don't see the point on this.. obviously if there's any negotiation taking place, it will be from Jacobs, which pretty much moots the entire thing.

The players should walk in and state that as long as Jacobs is chairman and Bettman is commissioner, they won't be returning. Meeting over.

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12-02-2012, 08:47 PM
  #417
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The players should walk in and state that as long as Jacobs is chairman and Bettman is commissioner, they won't be returning. Meeting over.
You really think that is realistic? The Owners will just counter with as long as Fehr is leading the players we won't talk either.

All you have done there is upset Vinik, Chipman, Burkle and the Leafs reps. People believed to be moderates and made them hardliners. That would be a very unwise move.

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12-02-2012, 08:50 PM
  #418
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You really think that is realistic? The Owners will just counter with as long as Fehr is leading the players we won't talk either.

All you have done there is upset Vinik, Chipman, Burkle and the Leafs reps. People believed to be moderates and made them hardliners. That would be a very unwise move.
No. You put pressure on them to put el cheapo in some safe with a bag of coins and let him count them.

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12-02-2012, 08:53 PM
  #419
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Suspect all you want the truth is 2 players of 750 have spoken out
lol. So out of 700+ players, you think that all but 2 are 100% onboard? Oh, and go read some of McGuire's comments or Mackenzie's where they figure that close to 50% would have signed a couple of those offers.

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12-02-2012, 08:57 PM
  #420
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lol. So out of 700+ players, you think that all but 2 are 100% onboard? Oh, and go read some of McGuire's comments or Mackenzie's where they figure that close to 50% would have signed a couple of those offers.
I know 4 others personally that are not on board also. They want changes in the contract rules being proposed, but support the make whole movement and the increase in revenue sharing. They are sick of the lockout and confused at the direction. They aren't ready to accept all parts of the deal but think it should be voted on and don't understand the end game anymore and are scared to death of the idea of decertification.

Another player I know is still firmly on board with the NHLPA, has a very hardline attitude about it.

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12-02-2012, 08:58 PM
  #421
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NHL just wants to have THEIR way and bully...problem is that they are matched up against a bigger bully!!!!!!! Suck on that Bettman you little B*tch!!!!!!!!!
That is such a constructive comment, just the sort of thinking that will prevent the players from ever settling with people they have learned to hate.
Thanks in large measure to the vilification of the owners, the players have lost over half a billion dollars in salary.

**************************

Here is an alternate scenario, though admittedly highly optimistic:
6 players and 6 owners, all decent folks in their own right, talk informally. Staff stay silent.
It turns out Jeremy Jacobs doesn't have horns. He is gracious but quiet, letting the other owners express themselves. The players are taken aback at first, but engage the owners in short order.
Chipman respectfully but persuasively explains the business case underlying the owners' contract conditions.
One of the other owners points out that, even with a rollback to 50/50, average player salaries will inexorably rise and, at 6% compound growth, break the $5 million dollar mark within 15 years.
But they've got to get back on the ice to make it happen.

They all look at the clock, the lockout clock, agree it's time to go, shake hands and talk it over amongst themselves.
Word spreads...

This has got to turn at some point, but it will not happen until the players stop being made to feel like victims by their own supporters.


Last edited by scelaton: 12-02-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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12-02-2012, 08:58 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
You really think that is realistic? The Owners will just counter with as long as Fehr is leading the players we won't talk either.

All you have done there is upset Vinik, Chipman, Burkle and the Leafs reps. People believed to be moderates and made them hardliners. That would be a very unwise move.
No, I don't think it's realistic. But if I'm the NHLPA rank and file, I don't want these guys forcing a lockout again a few years down the road. Making a few people pay for their sins is the best way to motivate those who follow not to be jackasses.

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12-02-2012, 08:58 PM
  #423
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Does he have that much clout with the Board?? I know he the main govenor on the board, but you would think the other guys would be able to put him in his place, if needed?
They DID put him in his place....they elected him Chairman.

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12-02-2012, 09:04 PM
  #424
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No, I don't think it's realistic. But if I'm the NHLPA rank and file, I don't want these guys forcing a lockout again a few years down the road. Making a few people pay for their sins is the best way to motivate those who follow not to be jackasses.
I understand that point fully, was just making sure thanks for the clarification. I am frustrated, but I want them to actually try out this meeting. If the players are right about Jacobs chances are he makes a fool of himself, he has guys in the room that are going to want to at least try. To fire the first strike would be a mistake in my opinion if that is what the players really do. Let Vinik and Chipman see just how Jacobs behaves and get a read on the situation.

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12-02-2012, 09:07 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
What does everyone think of this group? Having up close experience with Mr. Vinik, I think he's a great choice. Very smart, incredible businessman, totally sincere and a great communicator who actually gives a damn.

Any word on if any GMs will attend and which players will be there?
I am glad Vinik is in the room I have heard nothing but good things about him.

Chipman is a great call as well. I have had business dealings with Mark for the past 16 years and can give my opinion. He is a Vinik type, very popular with his players, he is smart, very down to earth, will listen, and has integrity.

He is also a guy who PATIENTLY took 15 years to bring the NHL back to Winnipeg by, aquiring an AHL team, getting an incredibly tough new arena deal put together, attracting and retaining the richest co-owner partner in professional sports, then slowly selling his case to the BOG and Gary over 7 or 8 years before landing the Thrashers "quietly"

He is tenacious but one of the good guys.

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