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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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11-29-2012, 07:49 PM
  #951
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It's looking like they may never have to pony up the $4.5 million they agreed to pay Jags this year. Only ten more months or so until the next training camp might start. . . On another topic, I keep wondering how Craig Adams feels, given that the longer the players wait to cave, the less likely he'll have a job.

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11-30-2012, 11:43 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
Yes, Dallas had such trouble before the cap overpaying players and struggling in their market, why they'll probably never overpay a few FAs again...
There may be exceptions, but in general, these teams will not be able to afford the Parise/Suter type deals that younger free agents are getting. If they do, they are spending outside of their means (ala Nashville/Weber). I wouldn't have a problem with that, if not for the lockouts. You want to bankrupt yourself? Fine, but don't expect the players to cover your losses.

Paying a few over the hill players 4.5 million each in a psuedo spending spree isn't convincing me of anything.

Dallas Economist on lockout

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As for Jewell, in the suburbs of Dallas, he notes there’s not much talk about the NHL lockout, even as the hometown Stars are idle. A bigger concern is the Mavericks, NBA champions 17 months ago and now 7-9, on a three-game losing streak that has given them a losing record and puts them in fourth in their division. The NHL? Meh.

“You might not be surprised that people around here don’t care much,” said Jewell.

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11-30-2012, 02:26 PM
  #953
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so mr. wu....

are you saying that 50/50 is not a fair split of revenue between owners and players?

If 50/50 was implemented. The # of teams that lost money would go down substantially. There might be 2 teams left that are losing money at that point.

Throw in the fact that if we didn't have this idiocy going on a presence in those big TV markets eventually pays off in a huge way. If you are on the side that thinks all the owners are making way more money then what forbes says and they are even more profitible.

What's better for the players? More jobs available at the NHL level or less.

Sure seattle would be more profitible then phoenix any day. But that's more roster spots for players, more expansion fees for owners, and greater TV dollars for the league. (if you expand rather then just move the troubled teams) If revenue sharing is expanded some then it works out for everyone quite well.

Also some believe that Phoenix actually can be profitible and that the new arena deal will help in this regard quite a bit.

A lot of the issues are idealogical and not rooted in common sense. The players will lose the season over $182M spread out over a number of years (Fehr's numbers not the leagues) when in player salaries they have already lost more then that this year, and stand to lose substantially more if the season is cancelled. The league is doing *something* right to have grown the revenue's as much as they have.

Fehr's proposal stuck in the caw of the owner's because it essentialy is a fine, we'll go 50-50, but with the outside dollars the players are still getting 57% of 2012 dollars for virtually the life of the CBA. The owners want to get there by year 3 (i.e. the proposal on 2 years of make whole).

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11-30-2012, 06:21 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Mr Wu View Post
There may be exceptions, but in general, these teams will not be able to afford the Parise/Suter type deals that younger free agents are getting. If they do, they are spending outside of their means (ala Nashville/Weber). I wouldn't have a problem with that, if not for the lockouts. You want to bankrupt yourself? Fine, but don't expect the players to cover your losses.

Paying a few over the hill players 4.5 million each in a psuedo spending spree isn't convincing me of anything.

Dallas Economist on lockout

Enlighten me, exactly who can afford those Parise/Suter deals in the long run? Besides Toronto, NYR, and Montreal that is. I'm sure many Penguin fans who were clamoring for Parise this summer will be A-OK that we never sign another big name FA because the contract could mean bad news for the team in the future. You blame the Southern teams for these "lockouts", but it wasn't just them who have had troubles & problems.


Also, I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be convincing you of in the Dallas situation. They had ownership issues which are now being patched up (sound familiar?). They had to rebuild and go from the known Modano, Turco, and Richards (you know, the guy they could've spent a lot of money to keep, but let him go?) to guys like Benn & Ericksson who don't even get talked about much in the NHL markets (unfortunately for them they didn't win a draft lottery). And no joke people aren't talking about the lockout in Dallas, they're not talking about it in a lot of cities (most of my Penguin fan friends aren't either). In fact last year during the NBA lockout guess what they weren't talking about as much? And as a side note the biggest concern in Dallas is ALWAYS the Cowboys.


You don't think the players should get blamed for ownership issues teams are having, that's fine, but then explain to me why exactly they should be getting a bigger piece of the pie.

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12-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
Enlighten me, exactly who can afford those Parise/Suter deals in the long run? Besides Toronto, NYR, and Montreal that is. I'm sure many Penguin fans who were clamoring for Parise this summer will be A-OK that we never sign another big name FA because the contract could mean bad news for the team in the future. You blame the Southern teams for these "lockouts", but it wasn't just them who have had troubles & problems.


Also, I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be convincing you of in the Dallas situation. They had ownership issues which are now being patched up (sound familiar?). They had to rebuild and go from the known Modano, Turco, and Richards (you know, the guy they could've spent a lot of money to keep, but let him go?) to guys like Benn & Ericksson who don't even get talked about much in the NHL markets (unfortunately for them they didn't win a draft lottery). And no joke people aren't talking about the lockout in Dallas, they're not talking about it in a lot of cities (most of my Penguin fan friends aren't either). In fact last year during the NBA lockout guess what they weren't talking about as much? And as a side note the biggest concern in Dallas is ALWAYS the Cowboys.


You don't think the players should get blamed for ownership issues teams are having, that's fine, but then explain to me why exactly they should be getting a bigger piece of the pie.
It's just a recycling of the typical canada good, usa bad kind of tripe.

We can sit here and try to explain that it takes decades for hockey to develop in a non traditional market. Have to get youth teams going, those kids and their parents get into the sport which spreads it to more people. Eventually not only do those markets become hockey fans but they start graduating players to the NHL draft as well. We already saw a few 1st rounders that came from California a place that apparently wouldnt fall under Mr Wu's ideal area for a Hockey team.

It's funny how he points to Nashville as a negative but most people here can see that they have an absolutely rabid fan base and are much more of a success story than a failure. Pointing to the Weber deal is sort of ridiculous when it was the Flyers who jacked up the contract cost of their team captain and best player by far. Of course they had to retain him but they werent able to smartly sign him for what they could afford. Frankly that's what this whole lockout is all about. It's to close loopholes that teams like the Flyers try to exploit in order to flex their big market muscles.

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12-01-2012, 06:10 PM
  #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
It's just a recycling of the typical canada good, usa bad kind of tripe.

We can sit here and try to explain that it takes decades for hockey to develop in a non traditional market. Have to get youth teams going, those kids and their parents get into the sport which spreads it to more people. Eventually not only do those markets become hockey fans but they start graduating players to the NHL draft as well. We already saw a few 1st rounders that came from California a place that apparently wouldnt fall under Mr Wu's ideal area for a Hockey team.
...
Exactly. We usually hear the kneejerk complaints about the league (and Bettman) not doing anything to grow hockey. Then when they do what is necessary to grow hockey, people complain about that too. We can't have it both ways.

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12-01-2012, 06:17 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
Exactly. We usually hear the kneejerk complaints about the league (and Bettman) not doing anything to grow hockey. Then when they do what is necessary to grow hockey, people complain about that too. We can't have it both ways.
I'm not so sure some of those fans want to grow the league at all. There are some fans, "purists" if you will, that just want only a few teams in the northeast plus Chicago and Detroit. Personally, I could care less if there are teams in Arizona and Florida, and I don't understand why people living in the northeast get all pissy about it.

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12-02-2012, 04:28 PM
  #958
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Sounds like there will be a owner player meeting.

Quote:
Source,Meeting involving NHL Owners and Players to take place Tuesday with 6 Owners and approximately same number of players.
https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl/st...54874802212865

Quote:
Owners -- Burkle (PIT), Chipman (WIN), Edwards (CAL), Jacobs (BOS), Tanenbaum (TOR), Vinik (TB).
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/stat...60580586582016

Considering the negative flak that Jacobs has gathered as being a Bettman hardliner, I don't see how this much of an improvement.

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12-02-2012, 06:43 PM
  #959
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Interesting group of owners there.

You have to assume that Jacobs is the biggest hard-liner of them all...but outside of Vinik the other four seem like they'd be very much in favor of getting the game back on the ice as soon as possible. Hell, maybe even Vinik.

It's pretty surprising to see Burkle actually taking an active role in things. He's come a long way.

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12-02-2012, 07:22 PM
  #960
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Considering the negative flak that Jacobs has gathered as being a Bettman hardliner, I don't see how this much of an improvement.
How many players could be labeled as Fehr "hardliners"? Should they be not allowed to attend? Don't forget, the dude is 1/30 owner of this thing.

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12-02-2012, 07:35 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Interesting group of owners there.

You have to assume that Jacobs is the biggest hard-liner of them all...but outside of Vinik the other four seem like they'd be very much in favor of getting the game back on the ice as soon as possible. Hell, maybe even Vinik.

It's pretty surprising to see Burkle actually taking an active role in things. He's come a long way.
I imagine Ron is just as frustrated as most and he actually has extensive experience in labour negotiations. I imagine he'd prefer to keep his nose out of it cuz he has other shhh to do really. Might as well take a stab at it though.

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12-02-2012, 10:31 PM
  #962
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That's a decent mix of owners. You need Jacobs in there because he's a winning, big market owner who is causing a lot of the problems. There won't be a solution until people like him agree to it. I also like that you've got a southern market guy in there, a new team, a "middle market" team like Pittsburgh and the biggest of all markets, TOR. In effect all the niche interests are represented so hopefully all perspectives on major issues are understood better by players and owners alike.

Now the question: which players. Presumably they'll all be the player reps for their respective teams.

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12-02-2012, 10:39 PM
  #963
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That's a decent mix of owners. You need Jacobs in there because he's a winning, big market owner who is causing a lot of the problems. There won't be a solution until people like him agree to it. I also like that you've got a southern market guy in there, a new team, a "middle market" team like Pittsburgh and the biggest of all markets, TOR. In effect all the niche interests are represented so hopefully all perspectives on major issues are understood better by players and owners alike.

Now the question: which players. Presumably they'll all be the player reps for their respective teams.
I'd expect to see Backes, Hainsey, Adams, St. Louis, don't know about the other 2.

Just keep the idiots who tweet out of the meeting.

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12-02-2012, 11:06 PM
  #964
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I'd expect to see Backes, Hainsey, Adams, St. Louis, don't know about the other 2.

Just keep the idiots who tweet out of the meeting.
Westgarth, I imagine.

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12-03-2012, 08:24 AM
  #965
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on a semi-related note...

We lose a season think how good it is that Shero made that trade (you can debate if the 8th pick was a good one or not) of Staal to Carolina.

Otherwise we would have not recieved his services and he would've walked for nothing.

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12-03-2012, 10:15 AM
  #966
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Absolutely right on Staal. He wasn't signing here again so silver linings FTW.

As for guys like Versteeg and Bolland (that EOL is worried about), there's not much chance they'll be in that meeting and the reason is, they're clueless on the technicalities involved. That and they've made divisive comments. They're just out there stirring up sentiment for the union because with their 10th grade education (AFAICT), it's all they're capable of doing. Based on my readings I think only about 35% of the league ever attended college for 2 years or more. The other group I think is filled with plenty of guys who never even graduated HS; they just went straight into competitive hockey at age 15 or 16 and that was the end of their education. Especially Canadian kids who have so many more leagues to choose from / more temptation to leave school early. Although there may be some law up there I'm unaware of that forces those kids to take classes in summer or something, so correct me (Canadians) if I'm wrong.

In short I would expect every player there to either be a wise old veteran of multiple lockouts, college educated, or both. Based on their education and presence at other times in this process I think Adams is a good bet as is Parros (Princeton), maybe Ryan Miller, probably Matt Moulson (Cornell), and maybe some of these other guys on this list but most are pretty young / not visible leaders. Of the young guys only Moulson has been visible.

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sport...ases/Ivies_NHL

Guys who attended BC, Michigan or Minnesota for 3 or 4 years should be considered too; those are all very good schools, presumably with good standards for athletes not in the football and basketball programs (i.e. they don't get a pass on academics because they're stars on the ice -- hockey doesn't bring enough money for that AFAIK).


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 12-03-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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12-03-2012, 05:24 PM
  #967
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TSN reporting Sid will be in NY tomorrow as well as Tazer... but doubting Sid will be in the meetings. Tazer I'm not sure. I could see it, conceivably.

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12-03-2012, 06:34 PM
  #968
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For the wishful thinking types among us (myself included):

Quote:
WBZ Boston Sports ‏@wbzsports
WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announced tomorrow or Wednesday
Based out of Boston. Guy isn't known as an authority, but it sounds like he's broken some Bruins stuff here and there in the past.

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12-03-2012, 06:41 PM
  #969
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For the wishful thinking types among us (myself included):



Based out of Boston. Guy isn't known as an authority, but it sounds like he's broken some Bruins stuff here and there in the past.
At this point, I'll grasp onto anything positive.

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12-03-2012, 06:49 PM
  #970
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Hah, this guy's not holding his breath. They haven't even talked in almost a week but now all of a sudden they're a day or two away from a deal? I'll believe it when I see it.

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12-03-2012, 08:44 PM
  #971
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Yah I call 100% ******** on that. If they were that close to an agreement that it could be floated to people like him, they wouldn't be having this meeting. Just a way to get a bunch of follows / hits. Damn social media ******. He's banking that something might happen so he throws that quote out there and all of a sudden he's "in the know" with a totally random guess to thank for it (should his flip of the coin be right). I can almost guarantee he doesn't know jack. If there was something going on LeBrun and McKenzie would be all over it.

I might as well start a hockey blog and post "we could see an agreement as soon as next week", and if I'm right I look like an insider genius and if I'm wrong I'm no worse for wear; I can weasel out of it easily enough because of the vague language I used.

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12-03-2012, 08:50 PM
  #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah I call 100% ******** on that. If they were that close to an agreement that it could be floated to people like him, they wouldn't be having this meeting. Just a way to get a bunch of follows / hits. Damn social media ******. He's banking that something might happen so he throws that quote out there and all of a sudden he's "in the know" with a totally random guess to thank for it. I can almost guarantee he doesn't know jack. If there was something going on LeBrun and McKenzie would be all over it.
Jacobs being Bostons owner, and many home-townees saying he's a respectable guy, that he doesn't fling stuff at the wall kind of guy. he's exclusive for the Patriots.

I'd trust him if they are that confident in his respectability.

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12-03-2012, 09:10 PM
  #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah I call 100% ******** on that. If they were that close to an agreement that it could be floated to people like him, they wouldn't be having this meeting. Just a way to get a bunch of follows / hits. Damn social media ******. He's banking that something might happen so he throws that quote out there and all of a sudden he's "in the know" with a totally random guess to thank for it (should his flip of the coin be right). I can almost guarantee he doesn't know jack. If there was something going on LeBrun and McKenzie would be all over it.

I might as well start a hockey blog and post "we could see an agreement as soon as next week", and if I'm right I look like an insider genius and if I'm wrong I'm no worse for wear; I can weasel out of it easily enough because of the vague language I used.
He didn't post it to twitter. Burton isnt known as a guy that just throws stuff at the wall hoping it sticks. Not saying it is true, but the silence from everyone else in the know is interesting.

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12-03-2012, 09:10 PM
  #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah I call 100% ******** on that. If they were that close to an agreement that it could be floated to people like him, they wouldn't be having this meeting. Just a way to get a bunch of follows / hits. Damn social media ******. He's banking that something might happen so he throws that quote out there and all of a sudden he's "in the know" with a totally random guess to thank for it (should his flip of the coin be right). I can almost guarantee he doesn't know jack. If there was something going on LeBrun and McKenzie would be all over it.

I might as well start a hockey blog and post "we could see an agreement as soon as next week", and if I'm right I look like an insider genius and if I'm wrong I'm no worse for wear; I can weasel out of it easily enough because of the vague language I used.
Steve Burton is a respected Boston Sports reporter who apparantly has exclusive access to the Patriots. He doesn't need to make up stories about the NHL lockout to be known, or get hits.

And to me, from a public relations scenerio, I think it makes perfect sense. I've thought for sometime that Bettman would be falling on the sword after this lockout. He will take the blame for the fans (because fans are more than willing to blame him),he will resign, and the owners will hope that will placate fans. But what better way to do that then: Bettman and Fehr Negotiate deal behind closed doors (Maybe with mediator help), keep it quiet, have players - owners meeting (supervised by the more likeable Bill Daly and Steve Fehr), shortly after announce deal, Wednesday, Bettman resigns at the Board of Governor meeting. Don Fehr Resigns at the conclusion of the CBA signing. Bill Daly takes over as Commish, Steve Fehr takes over as Exec. Dir. of NHLPA, Players and Owners look like heroes for 'negotiating' deal, while the big bad Bettman is gone. It's really the perfect exit scenerio for the NHL.

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12-03-2012, 09:17 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Steve Burton is a respected Boston Sports reporter who apparantly has exclusive access to the Patriots. He doesn't need to make up stories about the NHL lockout to be known, or get hits.

And to me, from a public relations scenerio, I think it makes perfect sense. I've thought for sometime that Bettman would be falling on the sword after this lockout. He will take the blame for the fans (because fans are more than willing to blame him),he will resign, and the owners will hope that will placate fans. But what better way to do that then: Bettman and Fehr Negotiate deal behind closed doors (Maybe with mediator help), keep it quiet, have players - owners meeting (supervised by the more likeable Bill Daly and Steve Fehr), shortly after announce deal, Wednesday, Bettman resigns at the Board of Governor meeting. Don Fehr Resigns at the conclusion of the CBA signing. Bill Daly takes over as Commish, Steve Fehr takes over as Exec. Dir. of NHLPA, Players and Owners look like heroes for 'negotiating' deal, while the big bad Bettman is gone. It's really the perfect exit scenerio for the NHL.
Pass the dutchie on the left hand side...

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