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Old
12-03-2012, 12:57 AM
  #251
Holden Caulfield
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The fact is, we currently have no NHL hockey for a couple reasons. First, the owners were unable to control themselves and their general managers, and allowed salaries to inflate to all time highs. Second, the owners who make all the money do not want to share with the owners who are in tough markets. So, they are trying to make that up by trying to squeeze every last drop out of the players', banking on the fact that the longer this goes, at some point they will cave in to all their demands. They do not care about the fans. They are assuming we will all magically forget after this is all over. Guess we will see about that.
Sigh.

1)Do not understand that the NHL had to hand over the exact same amount of compensation to the players NO MATTER WHAT under the old CBA.

Think about this. It did not matter if every single team was at the floor (a minimum by the way, which FORCED teams to spend). Let's say the league did that. Every single team is at the floor. The cap is calculated so that the mid-point is the projection for the players percentage. IE, the projection that if every team spent exactly the mid-point, the players would get 57%. Now in our little thought game, every single team does not spend a cent above the floor. Now what happens is that at the end of the season, the league and PA tally the money up. Let's say projections were bang on. Oh no, the league only paid out 48-50% whatever, but it's clearly going to be below 57%. The league was then REQUIRED BY THE CBA to cut a check to each player proportional to what they made (as in Kopitar gets more than Westgarth by percentage) so that the players got their 57%. The league WAS FORCED BY THE CBA to spend money. It wasn't the owners or the GM's not controlling themselves, it was BUILT RIGHT INTO THE CBA.

2)We've been over this. League has already agreed to the PA's revenue sharing plan (well ok 95%, if you want to harp on that small difference that remains fine, it but it amounts to very little). This is being improved upon.

The real issue behind this is that both sides are too bogged down in numbers to see the forest through the trees. They are so concerning with cents, they are watching dollars slip away. Both sides need to wake up and smell the coffee. BOTH SIDES.

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12-03-2012, 01:01 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Sigh.

1)Do not understand that the NHL had to hand over the exact same amount of compensation to the players NO MATTER WHAT under the old CBA.

Think about this. It did not matter if every single team was at the floor (a minimum by the way, which FORCED teams to spend). Let's say the league did that. Every single team is at the floor. The cap is calculated so that the mid-point is the projection for the players percentage. IE, the projection that if every team spent exactly the mid-point, the players would get 57%. Now in our little thought game, every single team does not spend a cent above the floor. Now what happens is that at the end of the season, the league and PA tally the money up. Let's say projections were bang on. Oh no, the league only paid out 48-50% whatever, but it's clearly going to be below 57%. The league was then REQUIRED BY THE CBA to cut a check to each player proportional to what they made (as in Kopitar gets more than Westgarth by percentage) so that the players got their 57%. The league WAS FORCED BY THE CBA to spend money. It wasn't the owners or the GM's not controlling themselves, it was BUILT RIGHT INTO THE CBA.

2)We've been over this. League has already agreed to the PA's revenue sharing plan (well ok 95%, if you want to harp on that small difference that remains fine, it but it amounts to very little). This is being improved upon.

The real issue behind this is that both sides are too bogged down in numbers to see the forest through the trees. They are so concerning with cents, they are watching dollars slip away. Both sides need to wake up and smell the coffee. BOTH SIDES.
This is what I was getting at in my post(you explain it so much better).

The Owners don't set player value.... The Market, Agent, Player, CBA does.

So lets stop with this it's all the owners fault they spent money. The players didn't lose big in 2004/05. In exchange for the cap, they still got some favorable conditions.

Would the NHLPA like to move to non guaranteed contracts like the NFL ? I bet the owners would give up the whole 50/50 for just that one concession.

So lets also stop acting like the players got railed last time. In the grand scheme of things, the players gave up very little.


Last edited by damacles1156: 12-03-2012 at 01:22 AM.
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12-03-2012, 03:17 AM
  #253
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YES. That is my point. Why would a league owner hand over hundreds of millions of dollars in new contracts, if they believed their business was in such terrible shape. I wouldn't do that. Would you? I think I made that point pretty clear in my previous response.

Second. You cannot say the NHL has never made a proposal with a salary rollback because the proposal which contained a salary rollback doesn't count. What was it then? This a multi-billion dollar industry, every proposal counts. Although I would agree with you, they made what even they knew to be just an absurd opening offer, but that doesn't change the fact that they offered it; and I would argue that has derailed the talks from the outset. Instead of extending an olive branch to the union, after they got pretty much everything they wanted during the last CBA negotiations, they instead tried to make it clear from the outset that they were going for more.

The fact is, we currently have no NHL hockey for a couple reasons. First, the owners were unable to control themselves and their general managers, and allowed salaries to inflate to all time highs. Second, the owners who make all the money do not want to share with the owners who are in tough markets. So, they are trying to make that up by trying to squeeze every last drop out of the players', banking on the fact that the longer this goes, at some point they will cave in to all their demands. They do not care about the fans. They are assuming we will all magically forget after this is all over. Guess we will see about that.
AGAIN. There was no salary rollback in any of the proposals - not even the first (which was just a starting negotiation proposal).
There was only a salary CAP rollback with a different (befoe last CBA) definition of HRR definition ...

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12-03-2012, 03:49 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The Owners don't set player value.... The Market, Agent, Player, CBA does.

Would the NHLPA like to move to non guaranteed contracts like the NFL ? I bet the owners would give up the whole 50/50 for just that one concession.

So lets also stop acting like the players got railed last time. In the grand scheme of things, the players gave up very little.
1. Yes that's where the issue lies, you have markets like PHI, NY where dumb GMs like Glen Sather just throw money around like it's Christmas every offseason (Holik, Gomez, Drury, Redden, Kasparaitis...) and markets like CLB, NSH who can't compete (sign their own UFA, RFAs) because they new market don't generate enough revenue to pay their players value because their value is inflated heavily by the potential over-payments they could get from guys like Holmgren, Sather...
Then there are the agents who want their part of the pie (6%+) of players contracts and would like to see a non cap league because of personal greed (more $). They couldn't care less about the health of the league.

2. Non guaranteed contracts...oh boy, the 2/3 of players and the agents would be on suicide watch.

3. 57%+cap inflator, they made out quite fine to say the least.

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12-03-2012, 10:13 PM
  #255
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just saw pancakes on Conan. Hahah, damn he's put on some pounds.

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12-03-2012, 10:30 PM
  #256
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just saw pancakes on Conan. Hahah, damn he's put on some pounds.
maybe he can be the Roenick of the 12-13 lockout.

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Old
12-03-2012, 10:42 PM
  #257
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just saw pancakes on Conan. Hahah, damn he's put on some pounds.
Really? I saw him in that charity game video a few weeks ago and he looked like he'd lost weight.

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12-04-2012, 12:59 AM
  #258
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Really? I saw him in that charity game video a few weeks ago and he looked like he'd lost weight.
yeah but his man boobs were popping out like cra cra so i dont know what to say

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:16 AM
  #259
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Hearing a few more positive positive rumblings about hockey to start early 13. Not sure about the deal being done set but more players are talking about coming home and getting the league going.

Looking good so far and that makes three weeks of continual forward movement that I have been hearing (and posting here) about so that would be a good thing to see happen.

Maybe NHL to start the new year after all?

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12-04-2012, 04:43 AM
  #260
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Dustin Penner on Conan


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Old
12-04-2012, 05:58 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by revoluutio View Post
Dustin Penner on Conan

Man I hope he keeps playing well and we hold on to him. He is hilarious.

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Old
12-04-2012, 07:32 AM
  #262
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Man I hope he keeps playing well and we hold on to him. He is hilarious.
This! The guy has become a favorite of mine due mostly to the way he's handled all the adversity he dealt with since coming to the Kings. That and he comes off as a guy that can laugh at himself and doesn't sulk when things go bad.

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Old
12-04-2012, 07:36 AM
  #263
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I thought the whole point of the meeting in the first place is to get the egos out of the room.

Well, anyway, it seems to be a bit better than "****ing stupid" now. They may even be able to negotiate a few points with a leader from both sides there.
There's also the problem of if the rumored owners are being named correctly, it includes Jacobs who is major part of the problem... Things are not looking so bright for this meeting anymore if the rumors of Dolan being turned away from attending and Joacobs and Daly being there are all true. It's clear this meeting seems to be a bullying tactic by the hardliner owners and not the olive branch it appeared to be.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:30 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by revoluutio View Post
Dustin Penner on Conan

I honestly think Penner looks leaner here than he did last year.

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12-04-2012, 10:40 AM
  #265
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I honestly think Penner looks leaner here than he did last year.
Pens latest tweet telling dl not to worry the camera adds 10 lbs was pure gold.

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12-04-2012, 11:05 AM
  #266
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Pens latest tweet telling dl not to worry the camera adds 10 lbs was pure gold.
Haha I didn't see that. Penner is awesome. There better be a season so we don't risk the chance of Penner never playing for the kings again.

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12-04-2012, 11:28 AM
  #267
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Pens latest tweet telling dl not to worry the camera adds 10 lbs was pure gold.
LOL

Dustin Penner ‏@Dustinpenner25

Thanks to all my twollowers for the positive comments. I was more nervous for this then the SC finals. Don't worry DL. Camera adds 10pds


Last edited by DaAnimal: 12-04-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
12-04-2012, 12:54 PM
  #268
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There better be a season so we don't risk the chance of Penner never playing for the kings again.
Amazing what can change in a few months. A year ago today, would anyone have ever even thought that, let alone said it?

On the other hand, I'd take watching the Dustin Penner of December 2011 over the nothing we have today.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:52 PM
  #269
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On the other hand, I'd take watching the Dustin Penner of December 2011 over the nothing we have today.

And if we were on a losing streak, someone would say "I miss the lockout."

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12-04-2012, 03:35 PM
  #270
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You realize how many low paying jobs this work stoppage has derailed? While the players fight the good fight, plenty of low income workers are having their hours slashed or gone completely.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 12-04-2012 at 04:07 PM. Reason: quoted deleted post
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12-04-2012, 03:45 PM
  #271
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You realize how many low paying jobs this work stoppage has derailed? While the players fight the good fight, plenty of low income workers are having their hours slashed or gone completely.
Right, because it's the players fault that the owners decided to not find wayd to pay it's minimum wage employees while they imposed a voluntary work stoppage. That would have really made a dent into their multi-million and billion dollar fortunes. Maybe they would not have been able to purchase that second 60 foot yacht this year. Give me a break.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:49 PM
  #272
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Back on topic .

Does anyone think this meeting is going to have any effect ?

I think some good can come of it. The players will see that moderate owners are in indeed concerned.

Cause lets face it, the owners don't trust Fehr and the players don't trust Bettman.

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Old
12-04-2012, 10:11 PM
  #273
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Update on progress made today (it's 11PM in NYC and they are still meeting).

http://iphone.tsn.ca/mobile/2012/12/...sc3_120412.mp4

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:07 PM
  #274
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"Productive day" they are meeting early again tomorrow. Get some quotes here soon.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:08 PM
  #275
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger Steve Fehr says it was a constructive day in some ways best day they've had. Daly says appreciate efforts of the players. Will meet tomorrow



Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
Daly: "We are going to meet tomorrow morning before our board meeting at 11."

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