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Jagr said his biggest NHL goal was PIT-NJD game 6 OT goal

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Old
12-02-2012, 02:11 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
It's not the same thing. The fact is Jagr actually did play for the Penguins and Capitals. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for the fate of both the Penguins and Capitals franchises.
I know that it's not the same thing - I was hoping that if I was a bit more absurd, then the poster would see how absurd his claim was.

You don't see the absurdity of "Jagr left the Penguins, so he gets credit for how bad they were after he left"? (Similarly for the Capitals)

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12-02-2012, 02:20 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
And yet, you don't see the absurdity of "Jagr left the Penguins, so he gets credit for how bad they were after he left"? (Similarly for the Capitals)
It's not that he was the reason they were so bad after he left (they still had Lemieux, Straka, Lang and Kovalev) it's that he stuck around long enough to keep them alive for this rebuild to happen.

The Capitals situation is different, I as a huge Jagr fan will admit that he didn't really give it his 100% outside of his first season there. The organization realized that the Jagr engagement wasn't working and decided to do a fire sale.

His time in Pittsburgh has one very little blemish which is his last season there (121 Pts mind you). That blemish is not even close enough to overshadow the star that he was for 10 years. He was either the best or second best player in the NHL for more than half a decade in Pittsburgh, if that's not enough to merit a retirement of his jersey then I don't know what is.

In fact Lemieux himself doesn't win his 6th Art Ross in 1996-97 if not for Jagr.

Think about this for a second, Jagr won 4 oh his 5 Art Ross trophies without Lemieux, Lemieux on the flip side won 4 of his 6 Art Ross with Jagr in the lineup.

Jagr was not simply Lemieux' Robin to his Batman, he was the Nightwing.

A formidable force on his own.

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12-02-2012, 02:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
It's not that he was the reason they were so bad after he left (they still had Lemieux, Straka, Lang and Kovalev) it's that he stuck around long enough to keep them alive for this rebuild to happen.
I have no problem with that claim.

However, it's not the claim of jagrgodr's that I was responding to.

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12-02-2012, 02:46 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Wow - that's quite a stretch, giving credit to Jagr for the Penguins getting Crosby and Malkin, and for the Capitals getting Ovechkin.

If Wayne Gretzky had been playing for the Penguins in the early 1980s, they never would have gotten Lemieux, so I guess Gretzky gets credit for the Penguins getting Lemieux.
If Jagr would have stayed with the penguins his whole career, i almost guarantee that they would have been atleast mediocre and would not have been able to get the #1 and #2 draft picks. If he would have stayed they would not have been able to draft Crosby and Malkin, that is what i am saying.

Likewise for the capitals. If he would have stayed, they would have competed for a playoff spot and a crap draft position and they would not have their stars.

The reason i am bringing this up is because the penguins and capitals are so upset over Jagr leaving the team, when in reality they each got 2 amazing players because he left the team.

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12-02-2012, 02:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
If Jagr would have stayed with the penguins his whole career, i almost guarantee that they would have been atleast mediocre and would not have been able to get the #1 and #2 draft picks. If he would have stayed they would not have been able to draft Crosby and Malkin, that is what i am saying.

Likewise for the capitals. If he would have stayed, they would have competed for a playoff spot and a crap draft position and they would not have their stars.

The reason i am bringing this up is because the penguins and capitals are so upset over Jagr leaving the team, when in reality they each got 2 amazing players because he left the team.
And I said that it's an amazing stretch to bring that up as a point in Jagr's favor. It shows a complete lack of objectivity.

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12-02-2012, 02:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Gretzky also said that about Crosby and Lindros. And he also said that Hemsky was the most talented player in the league, at one point. Really, the whole, 'Gretzky said. . .' argument for proving a player's worth doesn't hold a whole lot of water, considering 99 has never really said a bad thing about anyone.
He may have said that about those other players, i am just referring to Gretzky's last game in which he hugged Jagr and told him "you can carry it now Jags" at 4:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8b00CB1efc

Jagr scored the OT winner, quite fitting in my eyes.

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12-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
And I said that it's an amazing stretch to bring that up as a point in Jagr's favor. It shows a complete lack of objectivity.
You are right, because Jagr is much better than those future penguins and caps :-D

I was just saying that it was better for both teams in the long run.

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12-02-2012, 03:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
You are right, because Jagr is much better than those future penguins and caps :-D

I was just saying that it was better for both teams in the long run.
You're really letting your opinion of Jagr cloud this.

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12-02-2012, 03:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
excellent points. 4 straight scoring titles, and the only reason he didnt win more was because Lemieux came back in 95-96, and 96-97 (Jagr also missed time due to injury that season)

if Jagr never left for the KHL, and if it were not for the past 2 lockouts, i really think he could have finished second all time in points.
Jagr may have won the title in 1995-96 if it weren't for Mario, but Joe Sakic probably wins the 2000-01 title without Mario. Sakic had a fairly big lead over Jagr in 2000-01 before Mario came out of retirement and started boosting Jagr.

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12-02-2012, 04:35 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Jagr may have won the title in 1995-96 if it weren't for Mario, but Joe Sakic probably wins the 2000-01 title without Mario. Sakic had a fairly big lead over Jagr in 2000-01 before Mario came out of retirement and started boosting Jagr.
Jagr himself admitted this when he accepted the Art Ross during the NHL Awards show. He said he needed a miracle to win the Art Ross since he was quite far behind (actually he was starting to pick up the pace when Lemieux announced his comeback) and Lemieux did boost his morale.

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12-02-2012, 06:10 PM
  #61
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I remember watching this game and knew the second Jagr tied it late, the Devils' season was finished. I just thought we were going to lose the entire time the series was being played. I didn't like how we matched up with the Penguins at all. I remember thinking actually that the one solace I could take in that game was that at least a hall of famer like Jagr broke their hearts rather than somebody else like Kesa or the like.

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12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
  #62
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I wouldn't worry about Jagr's number getting retired. It'll happen. Heck, Patrick Roy made up with Montreal. Time heals all wounds. Most people aren't bitter old guys like Dave Keon.

By the way, I think it is important to note that Jagr did at LEAST what Crosby did in 41 games in 2010-'11 a few times. We've never seen a season where Crosby has been at the Jagr level. I remember before Crosby got hurt by Steckel how the boards were flooded at how dominant Crosby's season is going to be and whether he can now overtake Jagr at his best. I remember clearly saying that I'd like to see him do this for a full year. Alas, it never happened. If Crosby stops shining Fehr's shoes and actually has some influence to help end this lockout than maybe we can see him put together a season that compares to Jagr's best. But we haven't.

On a sidebar, I know Jagr has a couple warts in his career, but is the 1990s THAT long ago that we are now taking an approach that I see on similar threads with Gretzky and Phil Esposito where people just brush off how great they were? Honestly, Jagr was noticeably the best player in the world for a little while and there is no argument there.

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12-03-2012, 02:44 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
On a sidebar, I know Jagr has a couple warts in his career, but is the 1990s THAT long ago that we are now taking an approach that I see on similar threads with Gretzky and Phil Esposito where people just brush off how great they were? Honestly, Jagr was noticeably the best player in the world for a little while and there is no argument there.
Every player will have detractors and certainly Jagr has more than his share. I still think he's generally underrated, but I would guess much of that gap will close over time. I'm not sure any ATG has as many negative myths spun about them as does Jagr. It's really difficult to get a handle on the actual bias against Jagr, because there are just so many myths:

1. "He's talented but lazy"- He was playing on 3-4 teams as a young kid, did hundreds of squats a day in his teenage years to improve his skating, was known for being the last player off the practice ice in his early NHL years, and has maintained a grueling training regimen into his 40s.

2. "He's not tough"- I think the game resulting in this thread, when he had a huge discolored bruise on this thigh from the groin injury, is testament to his toughness. He's played through separated shoulders, broken fingers, etc. and those are just the injuries we know about. He never was one for fighting and rarely delivers big checks, but he probably absorbed more consistent physical punishment than any player.

3. "It's all about the money"- The money is certainly important, so this isn't a complete myth, but is that so different from most players? He cares about winning too, leading a lot of mediocre teams into the playoffs, performing very well during the playoffs, and playing quite a lot for the national team. I don't recall him ever holding out.

4. "He was a product of Mario"- The only truth to this is that he learned from Mario. However, AFAIK, there were other players who watched, practiced or played with Lemieux, so I'm not sure why they weren't able to learn from him as well.

5. "He can't/won't play defense"- First, he's been one of the best possession players in history, which is an effective form of defense (keeping the puck from the other team), if not such an obvious one. Also, he battles for pucks in the corners and uses his reach and skill to steal the puck when possible. He's not a shutdown forward and doesn't usually throw many backchecks during the season, but can and has played solid defense during the playoffs and important international tournaments.

6. "He's not a leader"- He's not a rah rah type giving fire-breathing speeches before games or during intermissions. He's mostly led by example and has embraced more of a mentoring and teaching role in his later years. He's captained NHL teams and international teams, and had about as much success as could possibly be expected (and more in some cases) while doing so.

I've even seen such statements as "he's a great goal scorer, but not so much a playmaker" and "he's a great playmaker, but not that a great goal scorer." Some will dismiss the anti-Euro bias, probably because Hasek is ranked so highly and Lidstrom is held in such high esteem by many, but I don't think it's absent in Jagr's case. I really believe that a player named Jeremy Jagger from Ontario, with the same dazzling skills and career accomplishments, would generally be rated significantly higher.

I think he will mostly get his just rewards over time. His record is just too strong to ignore:

- 5 Rosses and 2 runner-ups (to Lemieux and a close one in an unusual season to Thornton) and 4 more top 10 finishes
- 3 Pearsons and a 6 time Hart nominee
- holds the single season NHL record for points/assists by wing (and didn't get a Hart nomination??)
- holds an O6 franchise's (Rangers') season records for goals & points
- 7 times 1st All-Star in an era which was very deep at RW (Selanne, Bure, Mogilny, Fleury, etc.)
- 8 times top 2 in ES points, and 11 times top 10
- one of the very best career adjusted plus-minus ratings since records started after expansion
- led his teams to playoffs 16/18 seasons
- one point away from having as many playoff points as any non-Oiler
- the generally very poor records of his teams when he was injured and after he left
- Triple gold medals internationally
- Currently 4th in career adjusted goals, 7th in adjusted assists, and 3rd in adjusted points... despite missing a full lockout season (and so far this one as well) and being in the KHL for three years. If/when he plays again in the NHL, it's likely he will move up to 3rd in adj. goals and 5th in adj. assists.

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12-03-2012, 03:15 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by JWells16 View Post

Jagr is also not a shoe-in to be the second best Penguin player ever. Some already put Crosby ahead of him (which I disagree with).
That's ridiculous.

Putting Crosby ahead of Jagr is ridiculous.
Putting Crosby ahead of even Ronnie Francis is debatable.

The question is, at this point, would you even put Crosby over Malkin?
Because, you know what... For all the Ovechkin/Sid debates over the years, this Malkin guy's been getting stuff done more than the other two, all things considered.

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12-03-2012, 03:53 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
The question is, at this point, would you even put Crosby over Malkin?
Because, you know what... For all the Ovechkin/Sid debates over the years, this Malkin guy's been getting stuff done more than the other two, all things considered.
I think it's really close between those three right now.

First and foremost, Crosby has to be able to stay healthy enough to maintain some durability and longevity, or he has no chance at being the best of the three.

Ovechkin may have the strongest individual record so far. However, he looks to have peaked, and his playoff/international success is very limited at this point. OTOH, he has been the most durable, which could help him achieve the best career numbers.

Malkin has more than held his own with those two, but most importantly he has the momentum. He rebounded from successful surgery to capture his second Ross and seems to have put it all together.

If you guarantee Crosby will avg. ~75+ games/season for the next 10+ seasons, then I would favor him to end up the best. I just have serious doubts as to whether that will happen. So if I had to choose, I like Malkin's chances going forward.

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12-03-2012, 07:43 AM
  #66
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I can understand Pitt fans being angry about Jagr going to Philly and all, but how can you just completely lose respect for a guy that did so much for your franchise? Heck, I just read yesterday about how Denis Potvin got offered to join the Rangers in 1994. Sure, I would have been mad as an Isles fan, but I wouldn't cease to respect the guy for what he did for our franchise and not want to have his number retired.

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12-03-2012, 07:55 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
That's ridiculous.
The question is, at this point, would you even put Crosby over Malkin?
for what its worth, the last time BOTH players played a "full" season, Malkin won his first scoring title...and a Smythe...

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12-03-2012, 07:55 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
You're really letting your opinion of Jagr cloud this.
What, do you actually think Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are better than Jagr?!? I'm sorry but i don't think it's fair to compare Crosby to Jagr just yet. He is way too injury prone to be able to match up to Jagr yet.

Czech your math has stated it perfectly. The only thing i can add on his list of the myths.. The money thing. He knew he was one of the best players and he wanted to get as much money as possible. Remember this is a business. Not all players have blind loyalty to the team that drafted them, and they really shouldnt have that. Jagr had goals in life, and one of them includes making as much money as possible so he could help support hockey in his small hometown. He bought the Kladno hockey team not too long ago and is putting his own money into the team so to me this justifies his desire for a lot of money.. he is trying to help his town and country and using his money maker to do that.

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12-03-2012, 08:18 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by jagrgodr View Post
What, do you actually think Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin are better than Jagr?!?
Don't put words into my mouth.

You know exactly what claim of yours I'm responding to.

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12-03-2012, 08:32 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Wow - that's quite a stretch, giving credit to Jagr for the Penguins getting Crosby and Malkin, and for the Capitals getting Ovechkin.

If Wayne Gretzky had been playing for the Penguins in the early 1980s, they never would have gotten Lemieux, so I guess Gretzky gets credit for the Penguins getting Lemieux.
If Jagr would have garnered three first round picks instead of three "top" prospects, the Penguins would have had Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. So, I blame Jagr for lowering his trade value sticking us with Kris Beech...

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12-03-2012, 08:34 AM
  #71
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Jagr NEVER gets this honor in Pittsburgh. If he did I'd give up my half season plan. I never want to see Jagr again

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12-03-2012, 09:24 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
If Jagr would have garnered three first round picks instead of three "top" prospects, the Penguins would have had Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. So, I blame Jagr for lowering his trade value sticking us with Kris Beech...
For some reason (I was a Pens enthusiast at the time - back when I had the energy to root for both a WC team and an EC team), I was convinced that Michal Sivek was the real deal.

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12-03-2012, 02:47 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
For some reason (I was a Pens enthusiast at the time - back when I had the energy to root for both a WC team and an EC team), I was convinced that Michal Sivek was the real deal.
That's ok, I was such a big Ross Lupaschuk fan that I tried to purchase one of his game worn jerseys off eBay (as you may know, not a cheap venture)...I lost to a eBay user that I firmly believe was him (based on the name, town and lack of feedback).

And I think Mike Lange, just after one Jack On The Rocks but seconds before another, compared Kris Beech to Ron Francis, as I recall...saying something along of the lines of "you can tell he's gonna be a superstar" ...I think Maxwell Smart's trademark phrase would work here...

Horrid memories...

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12-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Islanderfan17 View Post
I can understand Pitt fans being angry about Jagr going to Philly and all, but how can you just completely lose respect for a guy that did so much for your franchise? Heck, I just read yesterday about how Denis Potvin got offered to join the Rangers in 1994. Sure, I would have been mad as an Isles fan, but I wouldn't cease to respect the guy for what he did for our franchise and not want to have his number retired.
That is about 5% of the hatred for Jagr.

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12-04-2012, 09:02 PM
  #75
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How did a thread about Jagr scoring what he calls the biggest goal of his career turn into a Jagr is hated by Penguins' fans, he doesn't deserve a jersey retirement topic?

As long as Lemieux is the owner of the Penguins; like it or not Jagr will have his jersey retired in Pittsburgh.

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