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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:58 AM
  #301
Dream Big
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I've gone to games in Raleigh, Phoenix, Columbus, Anaheim, Nashville.The smaller markets and I enjoyed myself.

The staff in Raleigh didn't know the visitors side from the home team but the fans do like to tailgate.

Sitting outside in the warmth waiting for the gates to open in Phoenix was a unique and quite enjoyable experience. Different.

Columbus Nation Wide is a nice rink. I liked the box I was in.

Nashville has some fine skating clean up crews. Maybe the best I've ever seen. The fans are into it.

I do like the pink building with the palm trees in Anaheim. So totally different.

I'd feel sad if any of them disappear. Just not sure how the economics can be improved so that they can survive and not drag down the rest of the league.

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12-03-2012, 03:25 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Yes, there are.
I know there are, but its never been a position that i have supported. Just as there are great fans in non traditional makets there are idiot fans in traditional markets. If you have a beef with them, take it up with them not me.

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12-03-2012, 09:08 AM
  #303
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I only point out the Nashville situation because it highlights a team that is not self-sufficient. Reigning in the cap is a way to achieve that goal. Another is to build fanbase support. But that takes time. The players dont want any part of that. They want the owners and the fans/taxpayers to foot the bill. Im from Toronto and supported the introduction of the cap even though it meant my local team would suffer as a result. LEafs havent made the playoffs in 7+ yrs now? Not a total coincidence. Fans here have made a sacrifice for the good of the 30 franchises in this league. I expect the players to do likewise.
The Leafs are the only big market team to have zero success under a cap. Detroit, Boston, and Chicago have cups under a cap. Philadelphia has been in contention almost every year, and went to a final. Montreal has had more playoff appearances than not, and went to a conference final. The Rangers have been a playoff mainstay since the cap, made the conference finals last year, and were supposed to be a leading contender this year.

Those are the 7 big, important franchises. I'm not seeing where the cap has hindered the Leafs in the last 7 years, since the Leafs aren't the only team dealing with a cap.

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12-03-2012, 09:15 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The Leafs are the only big market team to have zero success under a cap. Detroit, Boston, and Chicago have cups under a cap. Philadelphia has been in contention almost every year, and went to a final. Montreal has had more playoff appearances than not, and went to a conference final. The Rangers have been a playoff mainstay since the cap, made the conference finals last year, and were supposed to be a leading contender this year.

Those are the 7 big, important franchises. I'm not seeing where the cap has hindered the Leafs in the last 7 years, since the Leafs aren't the only team dealing with a cap.
They relied on it before, and were hurt subsequently as they did a poor job in transition. Im not saying that its exclusive just that a cap wasnt in their best interests directly. Other sports follow the same rules and it seems best for the league overall.

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12-03-2012, 10:58 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The Leafs are the only big market team to have zero success under a cap. Detroit, Boston, and Chicago have cups under a cap. Philadelphia has been in contention almost every year, and went to a final. Montreal has had more playoff appearances than not, and went to a conference final. The Rangers have been a playoff mainstay since the cap, made the conference finals last year, and were supposed to be a leading contender this year.

Those are the 7 big, important franchises. I'm not seeing where the cap has hindered the Leafs in the last 7 years, since the Leafs aren't the only team dealing with a cap.
Precisely because Leafs were very reliant on the management model of buying whatever players they need for whatever amount required. Not saying if that was a bad thing or not, it's just the way they decided to run a team and they paid (are paying) for it dearly once cap was implemented.

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12-03-2012, 11:01 AM
  #306
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Pretty much the Maple Leafs are finding out that they actually have to think and they're not used to it.

24 teams have gone past at least one round of the playoffs during the cap era. If you were not one of them, that's not the cap's fault. If you could spend to the cap and are STILL not one if them, that's entirely your own fault.

I'll say it again -- the Canadian franchises don't have to compete for fans, so they don't tend to want to have to compete at all. American franchises know that they have to fight hard for what they get, so they tend to be more resilient from the top down. Canadian franchises have it much too easy to ever expect them to dominate the league again.

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12-03-2012, 11:01 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Brymas McCaberle View Post
Precisely because Leafs were very reliant on the management model of buying whatever players they need for whatever amount required. Not saying if that was a bad thing or not, it's just the way they decided to run a team and they paid (are paying) for it dearly once cap was implemented.
Their GM is also acting like it's the 90s, where trading first rounders is the thing to do. The CBA changed, the Leafs never adapted until relatively recently.

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12-03-2012, 11:02 AM
  #308
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To be fair, the Leafs weren't exactly a powerhouse before the cap...

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12-03-2012, 11:16 AM
  #309
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The caps exposed the weakness of leaf management. They tended to buy their way past their lack of skill identifying talent before the cap in order to maintain some kind of relevancy, now they can't do that.

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12-03-2012, 11:35 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
The caps exposed the weakness of leaf management. They tended to buy their way past their lack of skill identifying talent before the cap in order to maintain some kind of relevancy, now they can't do that.
That's one of the positive benefits about the cap system. It shows which teams have a good management team in place to judge talent, and those that don't.

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12-03-2012, 11:42 AM
  #311
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Of course it sucks if you're a fan of one of the teams that doesn't, as a Bruins fan I don't have to remember that far back to know that pretty well. But if your team sucks at talent acquisition your team would still suck at talent acquisition even if there were 3-4 less teams in the league, so blaming talent dilution is kind of idiotic.

More than enough talent out there right now that combined with a good run at the draft and a competent rookie development program, every team should have a shot at being competitive. If the Yotes can do it, the only reason the Leafs can't is their own incompetence.

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12-03-2012, 11:54 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Pretty much the Maple Leafs are finding out that they actually have to think and they're not used to it.

24 teams have gone past at least one round of the playoffs during the cap era. If you were not one of them, that's not the cap's fault. If you could spend to the cap and are STILL not one if them, that's entirely your own fault.

I'll say it again -- the Canadian franchises don't have to compete for fans, so they don't tend to want to have to compete at all. American franchises know that they have to fight hard for what they get, so they tend to be more resilient from the top down. Canadian franchises have it much too easy to ever expect them to dominate the league again.
This is nonsense. Yes the leafs have not done well but the pressure to win in these markets is immense and would crush many of the players in small markets who can live in anonimity. Kadhri's weight as an AHL player was a big deal the first day of training camp and stayed that way for several days.

You are also forgetting that, unlike in the US markets the Canadian markets are not homogeneous. There are likely more hard core Habs fans in Toronto than there are Coyote fans in Phoenix. the Maritimes are split and the western teams still have legacy fans from the east. So they are competing for fans, they just don't have to paper the crowd with tickets in happy meals or do two for one giveaways.

But it is nice to know that Canadian fans have it too easy to expect them to compete, you know the teams upon who the southern teams are currently ( and forseeably into the future) dependent.

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12-03-2012, 11:57 AM
  #313
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Yeah that's it. It's the pressure.

Always some excuse.

So when exactly IS the Cup coming back to Canada for the first time in going on 20 years? A few bad years is an anomaly. Consistent mediocricy is incompetence.

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12-03-2012, 12:07 PM
  #314
sandysan
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Yeah that's it. It's the pressure.

Always some excuse.

So when exactly IS the Cup coming back to Canada for the first time in going on 20 years? A few bad years is an anomaly. Consistent mediocricy is incompetence.
Are we talking about the leafs or the southern expansion markets ?

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12-03-2012, 12:13 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Yeah that's it. It's the pressure.

Always some excuse.

So when exactly IS the Cup coming back to Canada for the first time in going on 20 years? A few bad years is an anomaly. Consistent mediocricy is incompetence.
US markets ( even the good ones) are extremely balkanized except for the NY/NJ region based on proximity. I'm not going to say that there are more habs fans in ontario than the leafs but there are surely more habs fans in markets other than montreal than any of the US teams.

I would love if a canadian team wins the cup but I dont take this as an inherantly canadian failure. I dont see the lack of a canadian cup winner as being a knock on the canadian franchises. The league has parity, and this parity is implemented largely at the bequest of the large market teams in canada. If toronto really wanted to win the cup, kill the cap and toronto will spend what their market will bear and grind the other teams into oblivion under the heal of their boot.

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12-03-2012, 12:16 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Yeah that's it. It's the pressure.

Always some excuse.

So when exactly IS the Cup coming back to Canada for the first time in going on 20 years? A few bad years is an anomaly. Consistent mediocricy is incompetence.
You dont live in Toronto so I'll forgive your ignorance in this respect. Its extremely difficult for Toronto management to rebuild properly given the pressure on the team from season ticket holders. Its just the way it is.

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12-03-2012, 12:17 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
If toronto really wanted to win the cup, kill the cap and toronto will spend what their market will bear and grind the other teams into oblivion under the heal of their boot.
Can you explain the years 1968-2004 then?

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12-03-2012, 12:51 PM
  #318
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Can you explain the years 1968-2004 then?
No one is going to dispute that the leafs are in a prolonged funk but in the period you mentioned ( pre-cap) the disparity between the have and the have nots was not as pronounced as it is now, and the name Harold Ballard might have something to do with it.

There might be some merit in saying that toronto's market somewhat insulates it from having to actively chase fans, but to suggest that this means that there is not pressure on the leafs to do well and that rogers is going to be ballard 2 and cash checks and stink the joint out every night for long is a fantastic stretch.

If the cap were crushed and it was open market on players, I suspect the leafs would ice a team that if it represented a country in the olympics, it would likely win.

If you want to be the NHL's version of the pirates or the royals, be my guest.

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12-03-2012, 01:05 PM
  #319
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If the cap were crushed and it was open market on players, I suspect the leafs would ice a team that if it represented a country in the olympics, it would likely win.
We tried that. They didn't win a cup for about 40 years. Now you're saying Toronto would somehow have an All-Star team. Name one big-ticket UFA who has chosen to go to the Leafs in the last decade when he could go anywhere.

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12-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #320
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We tried that. They didn't win a cup for about 40 years. Now you're saying Toronto would somehow have an All-Star team. Name one big-ticket UFA who has chosen to go to the Leafs in the last decade when he could go anywhere.
I'm a fan of the second strongest hockey market in the world and a league where the leafs could spend freely ( ie no cap) scares the crap out of me. I seriously dont think the habs could keep up, and teams in the south would get crushed to dust.

I seriously dont think people from the US understand what a juggernaut the leafs are economically. The biggest market with fans long suffering owned by a media conglomerate. I suspect that if they told people they were going to double their cable bills in order to make a push to win the cup, they probably would get away with it. The leafs print money, in good times and in bad.

This isnt to say that the leafs have not been poorly managed, they have. I'm still not sold on burke's plan and it is possible that they could get an all star quality team ( not right away but by picking up pieces along the way) and still find a way to tank. But over the long run having a disproportionate amount of the leagues elite talent will more than likely translate into success.

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12-03-2012, 01:56 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
This is nonsense. Yes the leafs have not done well but the pressure to win in these markets is immense and would crush many of the players in small markets who can live in anonimity. Kadhri's weight as an AHL player was a big deal the first day of training camp and stayed that way for several days.

You are also forgetting that, unlike in the US markets the Canadian markets are not homogeneous. There are likely more hard core Habs fans in Toronto than there are Coyote fans in Phoenix. the Maritimes are split and the western teams still have legacy fans from the east. So they are competing for fans, they just don't have to paper the crowd with tickets in happy meals or do two for one giveaways.

But it is nice to know that Canadian fans have it too easy to expect them to compete, you know the teams upon who the southern teams are currently ( and forseeably into the future) dependent.
i think the point is that if many american teams are not winning, they are not drawing fans. take dallas and colorado as a for instance or washington in the reverse. win and sellout. lose and dont sell much at all. the common reasoning for moving a losing money/no fans in the stands southern usa nhl team is that the canadian team getting the franchise would sell out nicely even with a last place team because they have real hockey fans.

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12-03-2012, 02:01 PM
  #322
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I'm a fan of the second strongest hockey market in the world and a league where the leafs could spend freely ( ie no cap) scares the crap out of me. I seriously dont think the habs could keep up, and teams in the south would get crushed to dust.

I seriously dont think people from the US understand what a juggernaut the leafs are economically..
maybe i dont understand. but iirc before the salary cap nhl teams could and did spend freely. did the leafs win a cup? challenge for one? how many did the rangers get? how many did the flyers get?

yea detroit got some. they spent big bucks but a good look showed they developed their own stuff and spent but wisely.

remember when the rangers used their economic advantage to sign gomez and drury to big contracts? how'd that work out?.

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12-03-2012, 02:09 PM
  #323
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maybe i dont understand. but iirc before the salary cap nhl teams could and did spend freely. did the leafs win a cup? challenge for one? how many did the rangers get? how many did the flyers get?.
The disparity between the top and the bottom is not nearly what it is now. If you believe the Forbes numbers, the leafs are worth a billion dollars.

They also have had really bad ownership for a really long time ( Ballard) who was comfortable maximizing his profits irrespective of the product on the ice.

I don't mean to say that if the cap dissappeared tomorrow the leafs would win the next cup. It would take a while to clear the deadwood on the roster and to replace them with elite players. But eventually they would have a disproportionate amount of elite talent and even the leafs could not screw that up forever. With the cap ( and the leafs near the top) every UFA is already rumored to be going to the leafs. Without the cap those rumors become reality and league parity goes "poof".

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12-03-2012, 02:12 PM
  #324
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US markets ( even the good ones) are extremely balkanized except for the NY/NJ region based on proximity. I'm not going to say that there are more habs fans in ontario than the leafs but there are surely more habs fans in markets other than montreal than any of the US teams.

I would love if a canadian team wins the cup but I dont take this as an inherantly canadian failure. I dont see the lack of a canadian cup winner as being a knock on the canadian franchises. The league has parity, and this parity is implemented largely at the bequest of the large market teams in canada. If toronto really wanted to win the cup, kill the cap and toronto will spend what their market will bear and grind the other teams into oblivion under the heal of their boot.
If the New York Rangers and Los Angeles Kings want to win the cup they could outbid & outspend (compared to them) medium market Toronto and in fact crush all of Canada to win cup after cup.

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12-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #325
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You dont live in Toronto so I'll forgive your ignorance in this respect. Its extremely difficult for Toronto management to rebuild properly given the pressure on the team from season ticket holders. Its just the way it is.
Why do you think this is ? The STH will not allow the team to rebuild and thus continually make lateral movements that means they are not in the playoffs but not near the basement in order to draft well ? Or do you think that burke is able to stick to his plan but that his plan sucks ?

The leafs fans are longing for a cup, its not like they would have to do repeated cycles of boom/bust. one bust cycle and a proper rebuild I suspect that they could maintain the boom for a while.

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