HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Greater redwing: Kelly or Fedorov

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-03-2012, 11:10 AM
  #1
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,511
vCash: 500
Greater redwing: Kelly or Fedorov

What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 11:15 AM
  #2
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?
You probably know my stand on this. Right?

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 01:06 PM
  #3
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?
Red Kelly and it's not even close.

Dreakmur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 01:47 PM
  #4
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,659
vCash: 500
Have to go with Kelly.

But I don't have either of them in my top 5 Redwings list.

#1) Howe
#2) Yzerman
#3) Lindsay
#4) Lidstrom
#5) Sawchuk

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 01:54 PM
  #5
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,315
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.
Red Kelly was a unanimous all-star in each of 1951, 1952 and 1953. He was ahead of the next closest defensemen by solid margins (90-68, 90-71 and 90-56). I think it's safe to consider him a four-time Norris trophy winner.

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:18 PM
  #6
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Have to go with Kelly.

But I don't have either of them in my top 5 Redwings list.

#1) Howe
#2) Yzerman
#3) Lindsay
#4) Lidstrom
#5) Sawchuk
Thats about the same as my list as well. I was just curious because on the wings board theyre doing a vote for best wings all time and Fedorov is ahead of Kelly and I'm getting called out for saying thats ridiculous. jkrx is one of the few with sense on the subject

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:19 PM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,165
vCash: 500
Red Kelly is largely forgotten by Wings fans because he left the organization on bad terms, so they refused to retire his jersey. While there, he was a better and more important player than Ted Lindsay or Terry Sawchuk.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:40 PM
  #8
DanZ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,328
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Red Kelly is largely forgotten by Wings fans because he left the organization on bad terms, so they refused to retire his jersey. While there, he was a better and more important player than Ted Lindsay or Terry Sawchuk.
Sounds like Fedorov...

DanZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:42 PM
  #9
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Sounds like Fedorov...
Yes, but Fedorov is new enough to be remembered by anyone over the age of 25.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:50 PM
  #10
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Sounds like Fedorov...
Well Fedorov left on bad terms while Red Kelly was dishonored. They didnt play fair back then. Just read about the whole Lindsay ordeal.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:12 PM
  #11
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Well Fedorov left on bad terms while Red Kelly was dishonored. They didnt play fair back then. Just read about the whole Lindsay ordeal.
Yep back then leaving on bad terms because he told a reporter he may have been playing worse because he had a sore ankle months after (when he played playoffs with a broken ankle) is not the same as holding out for a bigger contract from one of the most player friendly owners in sports like Fedorov

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:12 PM
  #12
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 30,266
vCash: 500
I'm going with the crowd here and saying Kelly.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:22 PM
  #13
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Yep back then leaving on bad terms because he told a reporter he may have been playing worse because he had a sore ankle months after (when he played playoffs with a broken ankle) is not the same as holding out for a bigger contract from one of the most player friendly owners in sports like Fedorov
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.

And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:23 PM
  #14
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 30,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.
And the offer sheet he signed from the Hurricanes, knowing perfectly well what he was doing to Ilitch in the process.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #15
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,624
vCash: 500
Kelly.............rather easily. A top 10 defenseman on more than 50% of lists, including mine

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:41 PM
  #16
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.

And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.
At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.

On a side note. Just think that Wirtz interfered with the Hawks - Blues trade. According to the article Blues offered Hull, Corson and another player for Roenick but Wirtz said no due to the history with Bobby Hull.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #17
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 30,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.
From what I understand, Kelly did not choose to leave the Red Wings. He was blackballed off the team for what even at that time was a ridiculously petty reason.

Kelly's only contribution was to assert himself and change his destination from New York to Toronto. I don't hold that against him at all, though I might have a different perspective if I were a Rangers fan back then.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #18
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,114
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
At the same time, this is a different era where players leaving teams is much more acceptable. But I agree, Fedorov was a bit of ******* in the way he handled things. Just, let us not pretend that leaving as an UFA now is the same thing as leaving a team in the O6 era.

Actually, my grandson went through some old magazines he had and showed me an article about the Roenick trade. Bobby Hull made a big point about how players were loyal to their teams back then while now its all about the money.

On a side note. Just think that Wirtz interfered with the Hawks - Blues trade. According to the article Blues offered Hull, Corson and another player for Roenick but Wirtz said no due to the history with Bobby Hull.
yeah, pretty ironic that bobby hull of all people would say that. he's not exactly orr in terms of loyalty. (not to begrudge hull for the decisions that he made; makes no sense to be loyal to some of those 06 GMs when they'd just as soon harvest your kidneys and leave you in a bathtub of ice.)

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:58 PM
  #19
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
yeah, pretty ironic that bobby hull of all people would say that. he's not exactly orr in terms of loyalty. (not to begrudge hull for the decisions that he made; makes no sense to be loyal to some of those 06 GMs when they'd just as soon harvest your kidneys and leave you in a bathtub of ice.)
It's not really ironic. Hawks never offered him a contract so he bolted to the WHA. For more money, yes but who knows what would have happened if it wasnt for hawks managements pride?

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 04:04 PM
  #20
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,114
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
It's not really ironic. Hawks never offered him a contract so he bolted to the WHA. For more money, yes but who knows what would have happened if it wasnt for hawks managements pride?
huh, i did not know that.

but maybe it's still ironic in that bobby hull had seen firsthand that most players' loyalty had not been reciprocated by the franchises they played for. so it kind of doesn't make sense for roenick to display an 06 kind of loyalty to the hawks, especially when their owner was wirtz, who was the worst kind of owner on those grounds.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 04:52 PM
  #21
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
huh, i did not know that.

but maybe it's still ironic in that bobby hull had seen firsthand that most players' loyalty had not been reciprocated by the franchises they played for. so it kind of doesn't make sense for roenick to display an 06 kind of loyalty to the hawks, especially when their owner was wirtz, who was the worst kind of owner on those grounds.
No, no, Ive wrote it a bit clumsy. He was in the opinion that Hawks did a mistake and he wasnt attacking Roenick at all.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 09:16 PM
  #22
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Not to mention that when he became an UFA, he signed with the Ducks for less money than the Wings offered.

Nothing like just a little more spit in the eye on his way out the door eh.
Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.

Quote:
And now, there's the more recent Russian articles with him badmouthing the Wings, Bowman and many of his teammates.
Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 09:57 PM
  #23
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.



Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.
There was a thread around here talking about it not that long ago.

Here... http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=704691

If you follow the story, it even garners a response from Bowman himself about it all.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-03-2012 at 10:03 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 11:55 PM
  #24
Reds4Life
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Reds4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Czech Republic
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,514
vCash: 500
Red Kelly, but I think it's closer than most people in this thread imply.

Sergei Fedorov at his best was a gamebreaker and a playoff monster. Wings would not have won all those Cups without him.

I hope both of these guys get their number retired eventually.


Last edited by Reds4Life: 12-04-2012 at 12:03 AM.
Reds4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 12:11 AM
  #25
newfy
Registered User
 
newfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov had been offered a 5year, $50m deal by the Wings. He was going through a divorce, and asked for some time to deal with his personal issues. When he was ready to sign, the offer was for 4 years, $40m. The Wings weren't willing to put the 5th year back on. Fedorov wanted the security of 5 years, and signed a 5 year, $40m deal with Anaheim.

To date, I consider that Ken Holland's biggest mistake.



Source? Fedorov still maintains a home in the Detroit area and the only things I've ever read regarding him commenting on Detroit are positive.
I think Fedorovs great but that really seems like a cop out. He wanted the security of a 5 year deal instead of a 4 year deal making the same money? Even if he signed on for a 5th year at league minimum with the wings after his 4th year was done he would make more money than the deal he signed with the ducks. Not to mention he would have more freedoms to go after another big contract a year earlier and not have to deal with relocating to a new city.

That 5 year deal offers much less security

newfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.