HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2013 - Planning

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-03-2012, 09:20 AM
  #26
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't know , 8 trades seems like such a high number that it's in ''might as well just don't have any limit'' territory.It would also be annoying to calculate how many trades people made.

Allowing trades BEFORE the draft is pointless , for trades to be relevant you have to see the picture of the draft appearing in front of your eyes.

One thing is sure , trades can be fun and useful for a GM , I know my team got better last year because of them , but it can also becomes a pain in the ass in the hand of a unreasonable person.

Finally , I would suggest 5 trades maximum , keep the 3 vetoed rule but be prepare to the possibility of losing a GM because of egos if it happens , 16 assets total.
The trading before the draft is basically only to cater those who dont like their draft position.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 10:06 AM
  #27
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The trading before the draft is basically only to cater those who dont like their draft position.
All picks swap isn't really trading , I don't see any good reason we should forbid it.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 10:37 AM
  #28
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
All picks swap isn't really trading , I don't see any good reason we should forbid it.
No, im for it but I'm against trading during the ATD or atleast against the way it was done last time.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 12:28 PM
  #29
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
I don't like restrictions on trading at all.

Let them eat cake.

vecens24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 12:45 PM
  #30
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't know , 8 trades seems like such a high number that it's in ''might as well just don't have any limit'' territory.It would also be annoying to calculate how many trades people made.

.
I agree, as I usually do in cases like this. Have a rule with teeth or don't have one at all.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #31
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,407
vCash: 500
With only a small number of people responding, there are already some widely varying opinions on trading. If this is an issue that will require lengthy discussion and a vote or two we should think about starting registration fairly soon, so we are able to hear from as many participating GMs as possible.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 01:27 PM
  #32
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
With only a small number of people responding, there are already some widely varying opinions on trading. If this is an issue that will require lengthy discussion and a vote or two we should think about starting registration fairly soon, so we are able to hear from as many participating GMs as possible.
I'd like to participate again this year, although I won't be able to be as active as I have been in past years. (hold your applause).

In terms of the trading I am pretty indifferent. I do agree that some of those trades last year could/did have played with the competitive balance of the draft.

From experience whatever the issue is should be dealt with sooner then later as debates like this tend to go on for longer then expected.

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:51 PM
  #33
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree, as I usually do in cases like this. Have a rule with teeth or don't have one at all.
IMO, the large majority of GMs handled the trading rules last time fine. The reason an 8 trade max "doesn't have teeth" is because it's specifically designed to only affect extreme cases. And yes, in an ideal world, it wouldn't affect anyone.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:52 PM
  #34
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't like restrictions on trading at all.

Let them eat cake.
My guess is that you weren't getting multiple PMs at any time of day or night demanding that you sign on immediately and give your opinion immediately on whether the megatrade du jour is kosher, because otherwise the draft was getting held up.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 02:54 PM
  #35
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't like restrictions on trading at all.

Let them eat cake.
Well, to be fair, I don't like restrictions either but my bet is that most would like to avoid the "lets trade 5 picks each right before we are up" kind of deals from last time.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:20 PM
  #36
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
IMO, the large majority of GMs handled the trading rules last time fine. The reason an 8 trade max "doesn't have teeth" is because it's specifically designed to only affect extreme cases. And yes, in an ideal world, it wouldn't affect anyone.
I don't feel 8 trades max is going to stop any extremists.Some people could be incline to enter the draft just to make some political and ego-driven points during it if the rules are provocative to their vision of the draft but not solid enough to stop them from doing any damage.

I see two options here:

- Go forward without any new rule and hope this vote of confidance will bring the reasonable side of every mind participating

- Making very strict rules so that people who just want to make some ego-driven or political points will have their hands tied.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 12-03-2012 at 03:28 PM.
BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:30 PM
  #37
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
So we are trying to prevent lop sided trades or trades that happen while somebody is on the clock? How is having an 8 trade max going to prevent this?

markrander87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:35 PM
  #38
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So we are trying to prevent lop sided trades or trades that happen while somebody is on the clock? How is having an 8 trade max going to prevent this?
it won't

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #39
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I don't feel 8 trades max is going to stop any extremists.Some people could be incline to enter the draft just to make some political and ego-driven points during it if the rules are provocative to their vision of the draft but not solid enough to stop them from doing any damage.

I see two options here:

- Go forward without any new rule and hope this vote of confidance will bring the reasonable side of every mind participating

- Making very strict rules so that people who just want to make some ego-driven or political points will have their hands tied.
We had strict rules in ATD2011 and people complained. We basically had no rules in ATD2012 and people complained. Why can't there be a middle ground with loose restrictions that only prohibit the extreme cases that really annoyed everyone last time?

I'm assuming there will be a vote on whether to ban trades, allow trades with tight restrictions (like ATD2011), allow trades with loose restrictions, or allow all trades subject to review (like ATD2012).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:47 PM
  #40
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So we are trying to prevent lop sided trades or trades that happen while somebody is on the clock? How is having an 8 trade max going to prevent this?
An 8 trade / 20 asset max would have made Leafs Forever think before making megatrades just for the sake of making megatrades. He basically admitted last time that he was addicted to making trades.

As far as I can tell, the vast majority of issues that people had with trading last time were caused by 2-3 GMs who were operating within the rules of the time.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:51 PM
  #41
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
We had strict rules in ATD2011 and people complained. We basically had no rules in ATD2012 and people complained. Why can't there be a middle ground with loose restrictions that only prohibit the extreme cases that really annoyed everyone last time?

I'm assuming there will be a vote on whether to ban trades, allow trades with tight restrictions (like ATD2011), allow trades with loose restrictions, or allow all trades subject to review (like ATD2012).
The number of trades or number of assets can only prevent so much , another problem is the timing of those trades.If you want this to work you have to control the number of assets allowed in each trade , not in total.The reviews will be easier.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:53 PM
  #42
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,174
vCash: 500
Would assigning numerical values to draft picks help at all? Having never done an ATD before - but would like to be a part of the next one if possible - I'm surprised how big of a deal this trading thing is.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft0...ory?id=2410670

It wouldn't do much probably, but it might alleviate the need to evaluate and approve trades and what not. I don't know...I guess I don't know how big the problem was, so I shouldn't have kept my nose out of it...just a random idea without much merit...

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:53 PM
  #43
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
The number of trades or number of assets can only prevent one portion of the cake , another problem is the timing of the trade.If you want this to work you have to control the number of asset in each trade , not in total.
I'm perfectly happy with banning any trade that involves more than 4 assets going in either direction, and have wanted that done for years. I know Sturminator feels the same way. Other GMs like the possibility of a megatrade though.

(Swapping entire draft positions before the draft begins doesn't count against this obviously).

In ATD12, we tried a rule that your trade had to be completed within a certain number of hours before your pick went on the clock, but it was unworkable because you never knew exactly when you'd be on the clock since it relies on how fast other GMs pick.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:55 PM
  #44
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,348
vCash: 500
We saw what happens with megatrades in the Leafs forum ATD.

Megatrades are bad for the competitive side of the draft.

There's a differance between trying to get a specific player into your roster and trying to screw the other GMs while being slick enough to get past reviews.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #45
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Would assigning numerical values to draft picks help at all? Having never done an ATD before - but would like to be a part of the next one if possible - I'm surprised how big of a deal this trading thing is.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft0...ory?id=2410670

It wouldn't do much probably, but it might alleviate the need to evaluate and approve trades and what not. I don't know...I guess I don't know how big the problem was, so I shouldn't have kept my nose out of it...just a random idea without much merit...
Sturminator and I also talked about creating some kind of formula in advance for what trades would be allowed. (Based on the assumption that an earlier swap was worth approximately twice the draft positions of a later swap). Other GMs hated the idea though, with the (admittedly pretty good) argument that it was impossible to determine in advance every possibility that would be fine to everyone.

Your idea seems like an improvement on the idea of a formula, because once picks have an assigned value, any possibility of a trade is possible as long as the assets balance. I still think a lot of GMs will hate it though.

Edit: One issue with your idea is that it would take more time to evaluate trades, right?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:57 PM
  #46
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
We saw what happens with megatrades in the Leafs forum ATD.

Megatrades are bad for the competitive side of the draft.
LOL, that trade on the Leafs forum would have been vetoed to hell on hfboards.

But yeah, I honestly don't see a single good reason to keep trades involving more than 4 picks per side in the ATD.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:58 PM
  #47
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
My suggestion.

- Trading your position for another pre-draft, is fine.

- TDMM's trade limit is fine

- Trade can only be done one full round before the first pick of the trade is going to be made.

- Trade has to be approved otherwise it's not legit.

- You can at a max only trade 4 picks per GM at a time (so 4 picks for 4 picks is fine)

Edit: To avoid circumvention of rule 4. When a trade is vetoed and the GM owning the pick has drafted a player. That player can not be traded.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 04:01 PM
  #48
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
LOL, that trade on the Leafs forum would have been vetoed to hell on hfboards.

But yeah, I honestly don't see a single good reason to keep trades involving more than 4 picks per side in the ATD.
Hey , I won fair and square within the rules.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 04:02 PM
  #49
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
My suggestion.

- Trading your position for another pre-draft, is fine.

- TDMM's trade limit is fine

- Trade can only be done one full round before the first pick of the trade is going to be made.

- Trade has to be approved otherwise it's not legit.

- You can at a max only trade 4 picks per GM at a time (so 4 picks for 4 picks is fine)

Edit: To avoid circumvention of rule 4. When a trade is vetoed and the GM owning the pick has drafted a player. That player can not be traded.
From experience, bolded is going to be problematic. What if you just spent the last hour negotiating a trade, and then suddenly as you are about to submit the trade, there is a run of picks that brings you unexpectedly into the next round?

Edit: Though I guess since we're talking about a full round in advance, I'd just be inclinded to take the GMs at their word and let it go. It should be obviously to everyone watching when a run on picks happens.

Frankly, given the fact that there is no way to prohibit GMs from discussing trades while on the clock (and just pick the other team's player and trade him), I don't know if there's a point of making trades happen in advance.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-03-2012 at 04:07 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 04:05 PM
  #50
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
From experience, bolded is going to be problematic. What if you just spent the last hour negotiating a trade, and then suddenly as you are about to submit the trade, there is a run of picks that brings you unexpectedly into the next round?
I'm sure we can be flexible incase the trade doesnt cause any problems for anyone. I suggest that the people who judge the trades is also the ones maintaining the draftlist.

Edit: Or you can simply announce that you are in negotiations for a trade and it will be posted as soon as its done and more people will be ready for approving or vetoing it and it wont hold up the draft.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.