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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIII: "The 11th Hour" Edition

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Old
12-03-2012, 12:22 PM
  #126
RGY
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Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
Would like to see the #NHLPA match players who represent same team as owners in meeting. Iginla, Crosby, Lucic, St. Louis #toetotoe


Strickland getting his wish with crosby

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12-03-2012, 12:22 PM
  #127
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Crosby and Toews will be among group of players in NYC. For me, Toews is key. He's been a consistant no-nonsense hardline guy.


Crosby going face to face with his owner.
That's a good thing. The two of them have a good relationship.

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Old
12-03-2012, 12:24 PM
  #128
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That's a good thing. The two of them have a good relationship.
Tawnos, I still feel what comes out of this meeting means nothing. The minority of owners somehow hold the power over the league. Over the original 6 teams, over the big money teams. The expansion teams hold the power over the teams that have been around for decades.

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12-03-2012, 12:26 PM
  #129
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Crosby going face to face with his owner.
sometimes i wake up and my dog is staring me right in the face...

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12-03-2012, 12:41 PM
  #130
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sometimes i wake up and my dog is staring me right in the face...
Yeah, my girlfriend does the same... Don't tell her...ah forget it...

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12-03-2012, 12:42 PM
  #131
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Come on, Sid

turn face, turn face

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12-03-2012, 12:45 PM
  #132
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Yeah, my girlfriend does the same... Don't tell her...ah forget it...
hahaha

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12-03-2012, 12:56 PM
  #133
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Winnipeg owner is also a key here: it there was any team that did not want to see a lockout this year, it was them. They must have wanted desperately to build on last year's feel good story and not see disaster strike in only their second year.

Key is: will any of these other owners challenge Jacobs ("The Boston Rasputin") to his face or at least express their unhappiness. Maybe, if they do, they will be led right to the guillotine.....do not pass go, do not pass Bettman's office. Do not deposit their 1 million dollar fine....just quickly off with their heads!

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12-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #134
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seems like a reasonably balanced owners group, no? surely toronto's not hardline

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12-03-2012, 01:35 PM
  #135
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I really can't wait until this garbage is finally over

A beat writer for TB tweeted and wrote Vinik is a moderate

Quote:
Believed to be a moderate. RT @JosephK26: is vinik for the lockout or against it ? so basically good or bad that he will be in the meeting ?
https://twitter.com/LightningTimes/s...66043214553090

Quote:
It also is believed Vinik is a moderate who won't mind the payroll reductions and expanded revenue sharing that will come with a new labor deal but also wants some sort of season to celebrate the organization's 20th anniversary and continue the effort to overcome the damage left by the previous owners.
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...ockout/1264255

Vinny and St.Louis said some good things about him. How much money did Vinik give Matt Carle? He will get the payroll reductions and more revenue sharing dollars. How much money did they give Matt Carle?

Garroich tweets Vinik is a hawk

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Don't believe for a second Jeff Vinik is a dove. He isn't. His presence is the same as Jeremy Jacobs and Murray Edwards in there.
https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...69582042259456

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12-03-2012, 01:45 PM
  #136
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If nothing comes off tomorrow's meeting, I expect the PA files their disclaimer of interest shortly thereafter.

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12-03-2012, 01:56 PM
  #137
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A very interesting read.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...-of-owners-cox

"Don Fehr may yet win this thing. And he surely didn’t take the job to lose".

and..

"Fast forward to 2012. NHL players have never been as rich as they are now, or were under the previous collective bargaining agreement. During Gary Bettman’s reign as NHL commissioner, their salaries have increased more than five-fold.

For that, Bettman is almost universally hated by the players".


one more

" In recent weeks, Boston Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs has become the focal point of the union’s spite. Before, it was Bettman accused of restraining the majority of good-willed owners and using voting rules to keep a minority in charge. Now, Jacobs has joined the commish in the minds of the players, ostensibly as the hardest of the hard-line owners, a individual who cannot be reasoned with because of his unbridled greed and disrespect for the hockey union".
The players' unity, if there is any at all, is galvanized by a toxic blend of personal hatred and the over the top notion they are being disrespected. This article sums up nicely just how "disrespected" they've been during the Bettman era. Salaries have increased 5-fold - how strange - you never would've thought that listening to the NHLPA.

Theres 2 issues here that the players need to resolve on their end:

1. The faux outrage regarding the 2004 lockout. Good thing they got Fehr on board to avoid that calamity again huh? All that deal did was line the players' pockets with cash for the last 7 years.

2. Familiarize themselves with the economic reality of the league. Its tough to take entitlements away from people. 57% of league revenues and no term limits on contracts are entitlements that you won't find in any other professional sports, despite hockey being a constant #4 in those rankings.

Its like a political campaign, when the record doesnt go in your favor, the next step is to tar and feather your opponent. From the stuff I've read, Im surprised Jeremy Jacobs hasnt sprouted devil horns yet. I've read less so about how half the teams in the league are unable to turn a profit. But the players dont care that half the league's operations are trending as unsustainable, so long as they continue to get theirs. Where is the greed in all this exactly?

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:10 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The players' unity, if there is any at all, is galvanized by a toxic blend of personal hatred and the over the top notion they are being disrespected. This article sums up nicely just how "disrespected" they've been during the Bettman era. Salaries have increased 5-fold - how strange - you never would've thought that listening to the NHLPA.

Theres 2 issues here that the players need to resolve on their end:

1. The faux outrage regarding the 2004 lockout. Good thing they got Fehr on board to avoid that calamity again huh? All that deal did was line the players' pockets with cash for the last 7 years.

2. Familiarize themselves with the economic reality of the league. Its tough to take entitlements away from people. 57% of league revenues and no term limits on contracts are entitlements that you won't find in any other professional sports, despite hockey being a constant #4 in those rankings.

Its like a political campaign, when the record doesnt go in your favor, the next step is to tar and feather your opponent. From the stuff I've read, Im surprised Jeremy Jacobs hasnt sprouted devil horns yet. I've read less so about how half the teams in the league are unable to turn a profit. But the players dont care that half the league's operations are trending as unsustainable, so long as they continue to get theirs. Where is the greed in all this exactly?
Faux outrage over 2004? Like missing a season for a deal the owners hate? For a deal they spent money and energy circumventing? The nerve of them to feel slighted.

Good point about Fehr... i guess there isn't a man alive that could have avoided Bettman's scripted lockout. Nice to see the pro billionaires finally admit to it.

You keep harping on the second point. The players accept the landscape. 50% and contract control. Honor contracts and stop being greedy on ALL contract demands. The variance cap achieves the loophole issues. It will indirectly cap term anyway.

Maybe the NHL should take your advice. Cap escrow and phase the new cba. Compromise. Ideals practiced by the other leagues. They seem to understand the labor climate much better than Bettman.

Half the teams are unprofitable? About as accurate as your insistence the players want 57%. 5 teams, five. That's the anchor. NYI will solve it with their move. Same for Phoenix. Probably a Florida team too.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:29 PM
  #139
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Half the teams are unprofitable? About as accurate as your insistence the players want 57%. 5 teams, five. That's the anchor. NYI will solve it with their move. Same for Phoenix. Probably a Florida team too.
It sure is easier to practice outrage and discontent when facts are ignored.

Does it look like only 5 teams have a negative operating income to you?

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations...on:asc_search:

Of course, these figures only came from one of the leading financial publications of our time, and not the mouths of an NHLPA with a bad argument, so I suppose it will be questioned.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:36 PM
  #140
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If nothing comes off tomorrow's meeting, I expect the PA files their disclaimer of interest shortly thereafter.
And then after canceling games through Dec. 31st... The NHL will put the drop dead date out.

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12-03-2012, 02:49 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The players' unity, if there is any at all, is galvanized by a toxic blend of personal hatred and the over the top notion they are being disrespected. This article sums up nicely just how "disrespected" they've been during the Bettman era. Salaries have increased 5-fold - how strange - you never would've thought that listening to the NHLPA.

Theres 2 issues here that the players need to resolve on their end:

1. The faux outrage regarding the 2004 lockout. Good thing they got Fehr on board to avoid that calamity again huh? All that deal did was line the players' pockets with cash for the last 7 years.

2. Familiarize themselves with the economic reality of the league. Its tough to take entitlements away from people. 57% of league revenues and no term limits on contracts are entitlements that you won't find in any other professional sports, despite hockey being a constant #4 in those rankings.

Its like a political campaign, when the record doesnt go in your favor, the next step is to tar and feather your opponent. From the stuff I've read, Im surprised Jeremy Jacobs hasnt sprouted devil horns yet. I've read less so about how half the teams in the league are unable to turn a profit. But the players dont care that half the league's operations are trending as unsustainable, so long as they continue to get theirs. Where is the greed in all this exactly?


Money has nothing to do with respect.

The vest fact of the 2004 lockout isn't where the "outrage" over the lockout exists on the player's side. The fact that you think so just shows how far off you are on this topic.

The players are aware they won't be keeping 57% of revenue and they have offered a method of limiting contracts. Being aware of the realities of the league is exactly what the players union is doing. You say no other sport has 57%? The other capped leagues had 57% and in both cases, the players were and will be paid out fully on contracts they already signed. No league dropped the players' share 7 percentage points overnight.

You've read from Forbes, whose numbers are notoriously inaccurate, and from league sources that half the teams aren't able to make money. Not only is one wrong and the other one misrepresenting, but it doesn't even cover the full scale of the actual issue. It's misleading.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:55 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It sure is easier to practice outrage and discontent when facts are ignored.

Does it look like only 5 teams have a negative operating income to you?

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations...on:asc_search:

Of course, these figures only came from one of the leading financial publications of our time, and not the mouths of an NHLPA with a bad argument, so I suppose it will be questioned.
Leading publication or not, they are estimations based on second hand numbers. The mouths of the teams is just as misleading... their agenda this year is to only cry poor. Gee, i wonder if they might try to post inaccurate numbers.

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12-03-2012, 03:11 PM
  #143
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Leading publication or not, they are estimations based on second hand numbers. The mouths of the teams is just as misleading... their agenda this year is to only cry poor. Gee, i wonder if they might try to post inaccurate numbers.
Are you really trying to de-legitimize Forbes while simultaneously pulling that "only 5 teams are not profitable" tidbit directly out of your ass?

Is it really that difficult to believe that 12-15 NHL teams are operating at a loss considering that 57% of revenues are going directly to the PA, in a sport that is a distant 4th in terms of popularity to begin with?

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12-03-2012, 04:02 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you really trying to de-legitimize Forbes while simultaneously pulling that "only 5 teams are not profitable" tidbit directly out of your ass?

Is it really that difficult to believe that 12-15 NHL teams are operating at a loss considering that 57% of revenues are going directly to the PA, in a sport that is a distant 4th in terms of popularity to begin with?
I'm sure Forbes is accurately reporting what little info they have. Just because a big, impressive name is on a report I don't automatically take it as fact. That is how little temper tantrums like yours start, directly in an ass.

I'm not saying only 5 teams lose. 5 teams are doing terrible thanks to Bettman's misdirection. Half the league is doing quite fine. The rest are right around even. They ought to do quite nicely after taking a chunk out of the players' impressively lined pockets. They would also be doing much better having a season instead of locking out. Their overhead is certainly higher than the margin after a season. The actual analysis that CM Punk provided yesterday shows that.

A vast majority will be profitable with the concessions from the players thus far. 7 owners and Bettman are holding the league hostage. They want the kill. They are taking it personal. Humanitarian Jacobs wants more money to give to charity. I looked all through my ass and I can't find one reason to continue the hard line approach after these concessions.

I'm sure you'll pull one or two gems out for me though.

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12-03-2012, 04:03 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Are you really trying to de-legitimize Forbes while simultaneously pulling that "only 5 teams are not profitable" tidbit directly out of your ass?

Is it really that difficult to believe that 12-15 NHL teams are operating at a loss considering that 57% of revenues are going directly to the PA, in a sport that is a distant 4th in terms of popularity to begin with?
I have been in Forbes. WSJ, NYTimes, FT.... and many more major outlets in MSM. On many occasions.

A blind faith in their "objective reporting" and not understanding what function and master they really serve will of course make a believer out of anyone.

I - for one - do not believe one bit about the numbers they present here. At all. But you are more than welcome to do so, which I am sure you will.

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12-03-2012, 04:07 PM
  #146
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It's the same tired refrain heard in every sport since player associations were first formed "we have teams losing money.....blah, blah, blah"

Don't believe it for a second. Sure there must be a few teams losing money as a result of inept management, terrible player development, and clueless marketing. But only a few.

Bottom line in this tussle is simple: ownership wants the players to save them from their own stupidity.

You have to work very hard to lose money being the owner of a sports franchise: but it can be done: cue the owners of the Mets. Can't believe that with the lockout I'm counting the days till the Mets report for spring training and another horrid season.

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12-03-2012, 04:07 PM
  #147
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I have been in Forbes. WSJ, NYTimes, FT.... and many more major outlets in MSM. On many occasions.

A blind faith in their "objective reporting" and not understanding what function and master they really serve will of course make a believer out of anyone.

I - for one - do not believe one bit about the numbers they present here. At all. But you are more than welcome to do so, which I am sure you will.
As opposed to....what exactly? Going with my gut? Flushing these #'s if they happened to not suit my argument?

Im not the NHLPA

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12-03-2012, 04:18 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
As opposed to....what exactly? Going with my gut? Flushing these #'s if they happened to not suit my argument?

Im not the NHLPA
You are entitled to your beliefs. That´s why we are here to discuss. No?

Time for a faceoff soon... this is getting on lot´s of peoples nerves. Mine - for one

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12-03-2012, 04:21 PM
  #149
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"@BroadStBull: I'm hearing lots of doom and gloom about Tues. #NHL, #NHLPA meeting. Feels like they will be saying their final good-byes."

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12-03-2012, 04:27 PM
  #150
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Regardless of the accuracy of Forbes, the simple fact is that the cap FLOOR is set at $54.2MM. If you sell 14,000 tickets to each home game (not even close to a sellout in any NHL arena) you'd need an average spend per person to be $94 (tickets and concessions) just to cover player salaries. If you have a competitive team and can sell around 17k tickets a night, the average spend drops, but is still relatively high for a night on the town at $78.

Obviously there are other sources of revenue (merchandise sales, revenue sharing $, local TV deals) but there are other sources of costs as well (arena lease, travel, scouting, etc.). I don't think it is a stretch to say that some Sunbelt teams are having trouble meeting that.

Not to mention that to get playoff revenue / build a fanbase you have to spend some more money to have a good shot at winning, and can't just operate at the floor.

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