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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIII: "The 11th Hour" Edition

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Old
12-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #151
NYRFAN218
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Regardless of the accuracy of Forbes, the simple fact is that the cap FLOOR is set at $54.2MM. If you sell 14,000 tickets to each home game (not even close to a sellout in any NHL arena) you'd need an average spend per person to be $94 (tickets and concessions) just to cover player salaries. If you have a competitive team and can sell around 17k tickets a night, the average spend drops, but is still relatively high for a night on the town at $78.

Obviously there are other sources of revenue (merchandise sales, revenue sharing $, local TV deals) but there are other sources of costs as well (arena lease, travel, scouting, etc.). I don't think it is a stretch to say that some Sunbelt teams are having trouble meeting that.

Not to mention that to get playoff revenue / build a fanbase you have to spend some more money to have a good shot at winning, and can't just operate at the floor.
The floor definitely needs to be lowered somehow but that's something the PA would never go for. They'd rather reach the same conclusion for the small market teams by increasing revenue sharing to make up for the floor being so high.

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12-03-2012, 04:48 PM
  #152
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It's the same tired refrain heard in every sport since player associations were first formed "we have teams losing money.....blah, blah, blah"

Don't believe it for a second. Sure there must be a few teams losing money as a result of inept management, terrible player development, and clueless marketing. But only a few.

Bottom line in this tussle is simple: ownership wants the players to save them from their own stupidity.

You have to work very hard to lose money being the owner of a sports franchise: but it can be done: cue the owners of the Mets. Can't believe that with the lockout I'm counting the days till the Mets report for spring training and another horrid season.
The only same tired refrain is the populist BS you're presenting. Generalizations that anyone who runs a business and turns a tidy profit is greedy, and anyone who oversees a fledgling enterprise is incompetent or stupid. The ironic thing is this stuff usually comes from folks who have NO IDEA how difficult it is to run any business, even when it comes to sports. ESPECIALLY when it comes to a niche sport like hockey that will never achieve the popularity the other 3 sports have seen over the years.

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12-03-2012, 04:51 PM
  #153
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Forbes' numbers can of course be questioned - hell, you can question any numbers that you haven't yourself audited. But where is the evidence that the teams are actually all (but for 5) profitable? Seems to me that if 83% of the teams were profitable and the players were only asking for very reasonable tradeoffs on contract rights...

...then there would be NO way these owners of profitable teams would throw away a season of profitability out of spite. 'Cause that's how 30 individuals & companies who have accumulated great wealth got there right? Throwing away millions upon millions of dollars out of spite?

Look, I am more than willing to lay a good portion of the blame for the current state of affairs at the feet of the owners, not just for Bettman's bullying tactics and their ill-thought out initial offer, but also what appears to be their recent resistance to even contemplate obvious gives on contracting. I am more annoyed with them now than I have been at any point since they made that first offer. But to suggest that the vast majority are making significant profits and they are still willing to cancel a season is a lot less credible than Forbes' numbers...

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12-03-2012, 04:54 PM
  #154
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Some think the Pope is the last word on the afterlife--they are entitled to think that but it doesn't make it necessarily so--nor the Dalai lama or Billy Graham. Like other publications Forbes is fallible. Forbes has a self-interest as well which tilts towards the most wealthy vs. the lesser wealthy.

Jacobs giving some of that wealth to charity is nice but it also comes with the condition that interested parties are meant to know about it. It needs to be taken for what it's worth. JC in one of his parables pointed out that an old lady giving only a small amount--but a real sacrifice for her was giving much more than a wealthy man giving a much greater amount but with no sacrifice to his lifestyle. By the way I'm a non-believer but there is sense in this.

Losing the hockey season is at stake here. Jacobs seems willing to lose the season just to see if he can force the NHLPA to capitulate. Charity giver or not--the last minute deals to secure some of his biggest assets strikes me as hypocritical--smells bad anyway. Strange to me how anyone can defend him.

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12-03-2012, 05:01 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Some think the Pope is the last word on the afterlife--they are entitled to think that but it doesn't make it necessarily so--nor the Dalai lama or Billy Graham. Like other publications Forbes is fallible. Forbes has a self-interest as well which tilts towards the most wealthy vs. the lesser wealthy.

Jacobs giving some of that wealth to charity is nice but it also comes with the condition that interested parties are meant to know about it. It needs to be taken for what it's worth. JC in one of his parables pointed out that an old lady giving only a small amount--but a real sacrifice for her was giving much more than a wealthy man giving a much greater amount but with no sacrifice to his lifestyle. By the way I'm a non-believer but there is sense in this.

Losing the hockey season is at stake here. Jacobs seems willing to lose the season just to see if he can force the NHLPA to capitulate. Charity giver or not--the last minute deals to secure some of his biggest assets strikes me as hypocritical--smells bad anyway. Strange to me how anyone can defend him.
You dont see how anyone can defend him when hes being called "a ****** person?"

Regarding the Forbes article, read BrooklynRangersFan's post. If you dont believe their numbers thats fine - next step is using your brain.

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12-03-2012, 05:04 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Some think the Pope is the last word on the afterlife--they are entitled to think that but it doesn't make it necessarily so--nor the Dalai lama or Billy Graham. Like other publications Forbes is fallible. Forbes has a self-interest as well which tilts towards the most wealthy vs. the lesser wealthy.

Jacobs giving some of that wealth to charity is nice but it also comes with the condition that interested parties are meant to know about it. It needs to be taken for what it's worth. JC in one of his parables pointed out that an old lady giving only a small amount--but a real sacrifice for her was giving much more than a wealthy man giving a much greater amount but with no sacrifice to his lifestyle. By the way I'm a non-believer but there is sense in this.

Losing the hockey season is at stake here. Jacobs seems willing to lose the season just to see if he can force the NHLPA to capitulate. Charity giver or not--the last minute deals to secure some of his biggest assets strikes me as hypocritical--smells bad anyway. Strange to me how anyone can defend him.
I haven't joined in any of these talks yet but something I haven't seen yet is that these wealthy people who donate all this money get tax breaks from it. You give lump sums to charities and receive breaks at the end of the year. I'm not saying this is why Jacobs donates but I feel like this is something that should be noted. However, a guy who taxes his staff on stanley cup rings will not get the benefit of doubt from me. Add on the last second contracts, and the actions during the meetings I can't defend him.

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12-03-2012, 05:13 PM
  #157
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Hey BleedRangerBlue.....don't you sometimes wish we could conduct a poll as to where all of us falll on the political spectrum?

But seriously, no matter where we all are, we are all going to be royally screwed if an agreement cannot be reached soon. No matter what we believe, all of us here on the boards bleed ranger blue....I know I do. A winter without the Rangers is not a pleasant thought.

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12-03-2012, 05:14 PM
  #158
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If you think about, three of the four work stoppages happened with the Rangers a 50-win team. I mean they were at 49 for the 1992 strike then crushed the Pens the last game of the season after two weeks off to hit 50.

1992, 1994 and 2012.

If the average 2012 NHL player really feels like a modern-day slave under Reichsfuhrer Bettman's Draconian rule, they should talk to Stan Mikita and Darryl Sittler and Johnny Bucyk.

NHL players never had it so good. Gross overexpansion employing guys who shouldnt be NHL employed, mega TV deals, UFA well before they hit 30...

The Rangers are still sitting pretty. Young team with young star players and a deep farm system. They can lose a full year.

And how much you wanna bet the future Brooklyn Isles get the No. 1 draft pick in the June Draft if the season's cancelled.

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12-03-2012, 05:16 PM
  #159
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And how much you wanna bet the future Brooklyn Isles get the No. 1 draft pick in the June Draft if the season's cancelled.
Somehow that had not crossed my mind yet. Literally might lose my lunch.

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12-03-2012, 05:55 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
If you think about, three of the four work stoppages happened with the Rangers a 50-win team. I mean they were at 49 for the 1992 strike then crushed the Pens the last game of the season after two weeks off to hit 50.

1992, 1994 and 2012.

If the average 2012 NHL player really feels like a modern-day slave under Reichsfuhrer Bettman's Draconian rule, they should talk to Stan Mikita and Darryl Sittler and Johnny Bucyk.

NHL players never had it so good. Gross overexpansion employing guys who shouldnt be NHL employed, mega TV deals, UFA well before they hit 30...

The Rangers are still sitting pretty. Young team with young star players and a deep farm system. They can lose a full year.

And how much you wanna bet the future Brooklyn Isles get the No. 1 draft pick in the June Draft if the season's cancelled.
Not really, when those young players have no experience to carry a team through a deep PO run. The lockout may be beneficial for players like Miller/Kreider since they can just focus on working out their kinks and bad habits before being relied on in the NHL. If the cap gets played with, we may not be looking at a similar roster when the NHL comes back. Richards, Gaborik, and Lundqvist are just wasting away right now and getting older while doing next to nothing. Character guys like Rupp and Biron are getting up there in age as well. The team can't continue to work on building chemistry (something Gaborik and Richards need to continue with, as well as Nash/Halpern/Pyatt with the entire team) or playing against actual NHL caliber talent and competition level.

No team can afford to just skip out on a year, especially not the Rangers: if they could build off the massive jump in success they had from two years ago to what they did last season, the next step is being one of the top Cup contenders and teams to beat, which would have been this season. I'm not sure where you're getting that we have a "deep" farm system either. We don't have that much outside of about half a dozen decent players in the AHL. McIlrath hasn't played at all this season and has no signs of returning soon, not to mention he's yet to really play in the AHL; Miller has been relatively effective but is still young; Kreider has been playing like Kreider and I have no doubt he's going to be a cornerstone of the Rangers going forward, all he needs to do is gain experience..then who else is considered or has looked/played like they're NHL worthy? Jean/Borque/Thomas/Talbot? Maybe?

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12-03-2012, 06:09 PM
  #161
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"@BroadStBull: I'm hearing lots of doom and gloom about Tues. #NHL, #NHLPA meeting. Feels like they will be saying their final good-byes."
As they should, neither side has any desire to get anything done. This has been evident for a while now.

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12-03-2012, 06:18 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Regardless of the accuracy of Forbes, the simple fact is that the cap FLOOR is set at $54.2MM. If you sell 14,000 tickets to each home game (not even close to a sellout in any NHL arena) you'd need an average spend per person to be $94 (tickets and concessions) just to cover player salaries. If you have a competitive team and can sell around 17k tickets a night, the average spend drops, but is still relatively high for a night on the town at $78.

Obviously there are other sources of revenue (merchandise sales, revenue sharing $, local TV deals) but there are other sources of costs as well (arena lease, travel, scouting, etc.). I don't think it is a stretch to say that some Sunbelt teams are having trouble meeting that.

Not to mention that to get playoff revenue / build a fanbase you have to spend some more money to have a good shot at winning, and can't just operate at the floor.
And it has been addressed with the 50% concession and a new calculation for the floor (a PA idea).

The contract issues can be solved with a variance cap. The refusal to stop squeezing is insanity. The league wants everything still.


The numbers issue: Its based on league reported numbers. 8 years ago the rangers didn't report concession revenue going into the negotiation. The isles hide their TV money. The hawks hide luxury box sales. Other teams transferred satellite company loses to their books. The "legitimacy" of those numbers was confirmed with a league hired accountant who was only given access to filtered ledgers. It was not an open book. Forgive me if I take NHL accounting with a grain of salt.

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12-03-2012, 06:18 PM
  #163
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WBZ Boston Sports ‏@wbzsports
WBZ's Steve Burton reports #nhl talks have made great progress behind closed doors and it looks like the season will be salvaged - @JoeGiza

WBZ Boston Sports ‏@wbzsports
WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announcement tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza

CBS affiliate in Boston. Guy that reported it is well respected for covering the Pats and NFL and also broke the Phil Kessel cancer news. Grain of salt and I 99.9% doubt it's true but maybe there's something to it. Just don't see how this guy knows something every other hockey reporter doesn't.

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12-03-2012, 06:20 PM
  #164
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12-03-2012, 06:21 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
WBZ Boston Sports ‏@wbzsports
WBZ's Steve Burton reports #nhl talks have made great progress behind closed doors and it looks like the season will be salvaged - @JoeGiza

WBZ Boston Sports ‏@wbzsports
WBZ's Steve Burton reports that a deal to save the #nhl season could be announcement tomorrow or Wednesday - @JoeGiza

CBS affiliate in Boston. Guy that reported it is well respected for covering the Pats and NFL and also broke the Phil Kessel cancer news. Grain of salt and I 99.9% doubt it's true but maybe there's something to it. Just don't see how this guy knows something every other hockey reporter doesn't.
Very skeptical, but would be great news obviously.

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12-03-2012, 06:22 PM
  #166
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12-03-2012, 06:22 PM
  #167
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Not really, when those young players have no experience to carry a team through a deep PO run. The lockout may be beneficial for players like Miller/Kreider since they can just focus on working out their kinks and bad habits before being relied on in the NHL. If the cap gets played with, we may not be looking at a similar roster when the NHL comes back. Richards, Gaborik, and Lundqvist are just wasting away right now and getting older while doing next to nothing. Character guys like Rupp and Biron are getting up there in age as well. The team can't continue to work on building chemistry (something Gaborik and Richards need to continue with, as well as Nash/Halpern/Pyatt with the entire team) or playing against actual NHL caliber talent and competition level.

No team can afford to just skip out on a year, especially not the Rangers: if they could build off the massive jump in success they had from two years ago to what they did last season, the next step is being one of the top Cup contenders and teams to beat, which would have been this season. I'm not sure where you're getting that we have a "deep" farm system either. We don't have that much outside of about half a dozen decent players in the AHL. McIlrath hasn't played at all this season and has no signs of returning soon, not to mention he's yet to really play in the AHL; Miller has been relatively effective but is still young; Kreider has been playing like Kreider and I have no doubt he's going to be a cornerstone of the Rangers going forward, all he needs to do is gain experience..then who else is considered or has looked/played like they're NHL worthy? Jean/Borque/Thomas/Talbot? Maybe?
The Rangers don't have a small window compared to other teams. The farm system is fine. Just because guys are hurt or not scoring 20 goals a week in the minors doesnt mean they wont be productive NHL'ers.

The Rangers are fine.

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12-03-2012, 06:23 PM
  #168
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At this point, unless I see the NHL tweet that them and the NHLPA have reached an agreement and will play this season, I'm not letting any good news about this lockout excite me. Although this Steve Burton guy better be sure of what he's saying if he's getting every hockey fan's hopes up.

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12-03-2012, 06:23 PM
  #169
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I don't believe it. There's been reports of progress for the last month and look where that got us

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12-03-2012, 06:25 PM
  #170
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The Rangers don't have a small window compared to other teams. The farm system is fine. Just because guys are hurt or not scoring 20 goals a week in the minors doesnt mean they wont be productive NHL'ers.

The Rangers are fine.
Not in terms of the cap, they're not. With McD, Stepan, Hagelin, and maybe Sauer needing raises next year, this might have been the only season where we had Gabby, Richards, Nash, and Hank together. Maybe if this season isn't played, McD costs less, but he's still going to be pricey. And the cap is only going down. Gabby is almost certainly becoming a cap casualty next summer.

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12-03-2012, 06:29 PM
  #171
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"I'm aware of the reports making the rounds. Unfortunately, there is no truth to them" - Bill Daly #BurtonNews #NHL

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12-03-2012, 06:29 PM
  #172
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Hopefully Snider speaks up.

Quote:
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
“@tpanotchCSN: Ed Snider, Peter Luukko & Paul Holmgren will represent the Flyers at WED all-important Board of Governors meeting in NYC.”

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12-03-2012, 06:30 PM
  #173
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Patrick Caisse @PatrickCaisse
"I'm aware of the reports making the rounds. Unfortunately, there is no truth to them" - Bill Daly #BurtonNews #NHL
I don't think he would say if they were close even if they actually were.

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12-03-2012, 06:30 PM
  #174
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...Well that theory got killed fast. Is the meeting still scheduled for tomorrow?

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12-03-2012, 06:33 PM
  #175
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Jeremy Rutherford ‏@jprutherford
Steve Burton of @wbzsports in Boston is reporting that a deal to end the lockout could be announced soon. Burton is very tuned into Bruins.

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