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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:15 PM
  #376
powerstuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
These Moody's guys just don't seem to "get it". It's a pity that the Moody's analysts haven't taken the opportunity to receive the financial wisdom available from Fallar, Clark and colleagues. Instead, they're obviously being unduly influenced by Canadian hockey zealots in frozen tundra towns and fringe right wing political groups in Arizona.
After I tweeted the doc to GFallar, he replied with

Quote:
George Fallar ‏@gfallar
@powerstuck Why, then, if that problem is NOW NO LONGER EXISTENT, do they decide to time it for now? Riddle me that, please.
The guy obviously didn't read the Moodys warning in January 2012.

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12-03-2012, 02:23 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
After I tweeted the doc to GFallar, he replied with



The guy obviously didn't read the Moodys warning in January 2012.
so, riddle him ... what's black and white and red all over? ... glendale's budget for the next 50 years.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:31 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
After I tweeted the doc to GFallar, he replied with
The guy obviously didn't read the Moodys warning in January 2012.
I must stand up for imbecile RoboCall guy here. If he wanted his words posted on our forum, he would have put them here. Further, if anyone here wanted to read uneducated lunatic thoughts from RoboCall guy, wouldn't they join Twitter and go read them first hand?

What is it about internet culture that makes people copy/paste comments from one site to another without consent of the author? It really is awful etiquette.

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Old
12-03-2012, 02:31 PM
  #379
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so, riddle him ... what's black and white and red all over? ... glendale's budget for the next 50 years.
You sir, win the internet's for today!

Ohhh and a very lovely article from puckdaddy!

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...7580--nhl.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Because not every Coyotes fan lives in Glendale. People were speaking were fans saying they'd be spending money in Glendale basically. They were supporting the team and indirectly supporting Glendale.
Umm no. The people who pay for very underpriced tickets and food are not supporting the community no matter how many times they tell themselves they are. For those who think that spending money in a Glendale bar once / twice a week during hockey season makes a difference they are delusional.

The real people who are responsible for this subsidy are the tax payers of Glendale and Business owners, not the consumers...

FWIW I went to the Jets vs Coyotes game in Glendale last season, I paid to be there, by that resolve should I not be allowed to attend and speak at these meetings as well???


Last edited by ajmidd12: 12-03-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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12-03-2012, 02:34 PM
  #380
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Because not every Coyotes fan lives in Glendale. People were speaking were fans saying they'd be spending money in Glendale basically. They were supporting the team and indirectly supporting Glendale.
At the end of the day, those "fans" from outside of Glendale that spoke made no difference, as the minds of council were made up long ago.

According to the Arizona Open Meeting Law, meetings are open to all who want to attend. And I understand the openness required, but it is strange that a gov't elected by the citizens of Glendale would allow non-citizens to publicly speak at their meetings, regardless of the issue being dealt with. To me it's a waste of their time ( the council ) to listen to someone talk about an issue that doesn't affect them.

IE: Say the CoG wanted to pass a law banning dogs from being out in public. Should the council allow dog lovers from other cities to speak at a CoG meeting? Simple example, but its the same thing as having Coyotes fans from Phoenix talk in front of the CoG council. They are hockey fans, not taxpayers and not citizens of Glendale.

Coyotes fans go on about how Canadians should mind their own business. Same should be said about Coyotes fans that don't live in Glendale. Doesn't matter if you live 5 miles away or 1,000 miles away... neither should be allowed to speak in Glendale. JMO.

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12-03-2012, 02:40 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
At the end of the day, those "fans" from outside of Glendale that spoke made no difference, as the minds of council were made up long ago.

According to the Arizona Open Meeting Law, meetings are open to all who want to attend. And I understand the openness required, but it is strange that a gov't elected by the citizens of Glendale would allow non-citizens to publicly speak at their meetings, regardless of the issue being dealt with. To me it's a waste of their time ( the council ) to listen to someone talk about an issue that doesn't affect them.

IE: Say the CoG wanted to pass a law banning dogs from being out in public. Should the council allow dog lovers from other cities to speak at a CoG meeting? Simple example, but its the same thing as having Coyotes fans from Phoenix talk in front of the CoG council. They are hockey fans, not taxpayers and not citizens of Glendale.

Coyotes fans go on about how Canadians should mind their own business. Same should be said about Coyotes fans that don't live in Glendale. Doesn't matter if you live 5 miles away or 1,000 miles away... neither should be allowed to speak in Glendale. JMO.
Erring on the side of inclusion would seem to be more appropriate in a democracy. If you lived in Whoville but owned a business in Whereville, should you be excluded from discussing Whereville business at their meeting? It seems that you would have a vested interest regardless of the fact that you are not a resident. Just a counter opinion.

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12-03-2012, 03:26 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
You sir, win the internet's for today!

Ohhh and a very lovely article from puckdaddy!

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...7580--nhl.html

Umm no. The people who pay for very underpriced tickets and food are not supporting the community no matter how many times they tell themselves they are. For those who think that spending money in a Glendale bar once / twice a week during hockey season makes a difference they are delusional.

The real people who are responsible for this subsidy are the tax payers of Glendale and Business owners, not the consumers...

FWIW I went to the Jets vs Coyotes game in Glendale last season, I paid to be there, by that resolve should I not be allowed to attend and speak at these meetings as well???
Yes you should. They don't check your citizenship or team affiliation at the door last time I checked. It is an open forum. You have the right to be there just as much as they have the right to listen to you or not. Free country.

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Old
12-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
Erring on the side of inclusion would seem to be more appropriate in a democracy. If you lived in Whoville but owned a business in Whereville, should you be excluded from discussing Whereville business at their meeting? It seems that you would have a vested interest regardless of the fact that you are not a resident. Just a counter opinion.
That is a poor example CF. As the fans from Phoenix (and anywhere else on the planet) do not own or were being asked to pay for the major subsidy to the Coyotes.

The citizens of Glendale were and from what I heard at the meeting the majority are against the deal. Their opinions and those who will actually be funding the subsidy should be the only ones that matter.

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12-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
At the end of the day, those "fans" from outside of Glendale that spoke made no difference, as the minds of council were made up long ago.

According to the Arizona Open Meeting Law, meetings are open to all who want to attend. And I understand the openness required, but it is strange that a gov't elected by the citizens of Glendale would allow non-citizens to publicly speak at their meetings, regardless of the issue being dealt with. To me it's a waste of their time ( the council ) to listen to someone talk about an issue that doesn't affect them.

IE: Say the CoG wanted to pass a law banning dogs from being out in public. Should the council allow dog lovers from other cities to speak at a CoG meeting? Simple example, but its the same thing as having Coyotes fans from Phoenix talk in front of the CoG council. They are hockey fans, not taxpayers and not citizens of Glendale.

Coyotes fans go on about how Canadians should mind their own business. Same should be said about Coyotes fans that don't live in Glendale. Doesn't matter if you live 5 miles away or 1,000 miles away... neither should be allowed to speak in Glendale. JMO.
Well, if those dog lovers walk their dogs in public in Glendale, then yes. Especially if they take their dogs to dog parks, etc. in Glendale.

We don't go on about minding your own business. We go on about how some Canadians act like they care about the CoG and the taxpayers in the city of Glendale. They are "outraged" and "feel bad for Glendale taxpayers" but that isn't the case at all for the most part. There are other motives afoot and as I said before, very transparent. Your bias may be shielding you from seeing it but for most people without a horse in the race, it is blatantly obvious.

You want the Coyotes to move to a Canadian city. Please stop acting like you are concerned about how the NHL will look to everyone else or other major sports leagues. Please stop acting like you care about how a city in another country spends its money. Please stop acting like everyone who doesn't agree with you on the GCC is stupid or not aware of how things work or are 'over their heads'.

Just say what you really mean and that you want the Coyotes to move because you want another team in Canada (or another US city you pretend to care about).



/rant

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Old
12-03-2012, 03:42 PM
  #385
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That is a poor example CF. As the fans from Phoenix (and anywhere else on the planet) do not own or were being asked to pay for the major subsidy to the Coyotes.

The citizens of Glendale were and from what I heard at the meeting the majority are against the deal. Their opinions and those who will actually be funding the subsidy should be the only ones that matter.
You were not at the meeting. I was. That wasn't the case at all. Not everyone spoke. A majority of the people in the room were wearing Coyotes jerseys. Just because you didn't "hear" them, doesn't mean they weren't there to support the deal. I was there, I didn't speak but i support the deal. You assessment is incorrect.

Also, last time I checked, part of the price of the tickets sold go toward running the team also. They don't just sell tickets to Glendale residents. So, yeah, it matters that people say they will come to the games if the GCC will pass the deal.

No soup for you!

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Old
12-03-2012, 03:47 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
You were not at the meeting. I was. That wasn't the case at all. Not everyone spoke. A majority of the people in the room were wearing Coyotes jerseys. Just because you didn't "hear" them, doesn't mean they weren't there to support the deal. I was there, I didn't speak but i support the deal. You assessment is incorrect.

Also, last time I checked, part of the price of the tickets sold go toward running the team also. They don't just sell tickets to Glendale residents. So, yeah, it matters that people say they will come to the games if the GCC will pass the deal.

No soup for you!
Out of curiosity how do you know those people in Coyotes jerseys were from Glendale and not surrounding communities?

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Old
12-03-2012, 03:55 PM
  #387
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not that anyone cares what i think, but i have no problem with glendale council allowing non-residents to speak. as long as they aren't taking time away from residents who would like to speak, why should it matter? these speakers aren't voting, they are simply expressing their opinions and providing more input into the decision-making process. it's up to councillors to then take all of the information available and make a decision. personally, as a councillor i would find it more informative to better understand what coyotes fans "do" rather than what they "feel", tho.

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12-03-2012, 04:08 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
We don't go on about minding your own business. We go on about how some Canadians act like they care about the CoG and the taxpayers in the city of Glendale. They are "outraged" and "feel bad for Glendale taxpayers" but that isn't the case at all for the most part. There are other motives afoot and as I said before, very transparent. Your bias may be shielding you from seeing it but for most people without a horse in the race, it is blatantly obvious.

You want the Coyotes to move to a Canadian city. Please stop acting like you are concerned about how the NHL will look to everyone else or other major sports leagues. Please stop acting like you care about how a city in another country spends its money. Please stop acting like everyone who doesn't agree with you on the GCC is stupid or not aware of how things work or are 'over their heads'.

Just say what you really mean and that you want the Coyotes to move because you want another team in Canada (or another US city you pretend to care about).
Maybe you haven't noticed but a significant number of those who are criticizing the COG are living in cities that already have NHL teams and that there are just as many Americans criticizing as Canadians.

I think it's more likely that you are complaining about peoples motivation has more to do with not wanting to deal with the fact that your hobby is bankrupting a community and potentially hurting a lot of individuals. It's a classic strawman deflection.

So perhaps instead of questioning people's motives, how about dealing with the issues instead.

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12-03-2012, 04:22 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I must stand up for imbecile RoboCall guy here. If he wanted his words posted on our forum, he would have put them here. Further, if anyone here wanted to read uneducated lunatic thoughts from RoboCall guy, wouldn't they join Twitter and go read them first hand?

What is it about internet culture that makes people copy/paste comments from one site to another without consent of the author? It really is awful etiquette.
It's 2012 and this is internet. What ever you say, write, post, do on the internet, is indeed public.

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Old
12-03-2012, 04:27 PM
  #390
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Maybe you haven't noticed but a significant number of those who are criticizing the COG are living in cities that already have NHL teams and that there are just as many Americans criticizing as Canadians.

I think it's more likely that you are complaining about peoples motivation has more to do with not wanting to deal with the fact that your hobby is bankrupting a community and potentially hurting a lot of individuals. It's a classic strawman deflection.

So perhaps instead of questioning people's motives, how about dealing with the issues instead.
Some people are just fascinated by the whole melodrama, and the increasing possibility that we might see a "Business of Hockey" milestone - a city actually going under financially in an attempt to appease the financial demands/needs of the NHL.

Whatever one's motives, this is undoubtedly a spectacle of significant proportions.

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Old
12-03-2012, 04:43 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I must stand up for imbecile RoboCall guy here. If he wanted his words posted on our forum, he would have put them here. Further, if anyone here wanted to read uneducated lunatic thoughts from RoboCall guy, wouldn't they join Twitter and go read them first hand?

What is it about internet culture that makes people copy/paste comments from one site to another without consent of the author? It really is awful etiquette.
I pretty much assume anything I say on a public forum is public. The only time its an issue is if somebody takes it and tries to pass it off as his own work because quite frankly the stuff I say is hilarious and insightful.

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12-03-2012, 05:13 PM
  #392
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It's 2012 and this is internet. What ever you say, write, post, do on the internet, is indeed public.
I made no argument that the material was private. What I said was copy/pasting it from one public area to another public area seems misguided and in poor taste. If anyone wanted to read the information, it is already public. They can go look at it without any difficulty. My point, which you clearly missed, was: Why are you taking info that is already publicly accessible elsewhere and pasting it on this forum as if it is a valid news item?

From here, it looks like you want to crow about your online feuds with people in Phoenix but you can't get the attention elsewhere so you brought it to BoH. I, for one, don't want it and I think your behavior is insolent.

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12-03-2012, 05:25 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Just say what you really mean and that you want the Coyotes to move because you want another team in Canada (or another US city you pretend to care about).



/rant
Ok... I will say what I really mean... I do not care where the NHL puts its teams, but I do think those teams should try to pay their own freight without going to the taxpayers with insane demands. If the NHL has revenue sharing and some teams require this to make ends meet then that's fine, that's the NHL's business. If a city wants to build an arena that's also fine because it benefits far more than just the one team. But as soon as a specific team becomes a burden on the general populous, you really have to question should it be there.

If Glendale was an adequate market, there would have been potential owners lined up to pay the asking price without making unreasonable demands upon the city. This has been going on for 3+ years because the people with real money know that this is not a viable market, unless the taxpayers pay some of the operating costs, and even then, it's debatable.

In 1995 Winnipeg had the same opportunity to go down the path of least heartache and allocate millions of taxpayer dollars to help cover the team's expenses. As much as it hurt, the city council did the right thing from a taxpayer point a view, and let it go. If the Jets 2.0 does become a burden on the taxpayers, although I have STs, I will be one of the first in line to help move them out of town. They are entertainment, not hospitals, not fire fighters, not police, not what's really important. And of course all the doom and gloom predictions about how Winnipeg was going to lose businesses and become a ghost town didn't come true when Jets 1.0 left. And neither will it happen in Glendale. The city will be just fine without the NHL. All talk to the opposite is just fear-mongering.

I have yet to see a city die because a sports team leaves town, but we are about to see a city die because they try to keep one.


Last edited by cbcwpg: 12-03-2012 at 05:36 PM.
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12-03-2012, 05:30 PM
  #394
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I made no argument that the material was private. What I said was copy/pasting it from one public area to another public area seems misguided and in poor taste. If anyone wanted to read the information, it is already public. They can go look at it without any difficulty. My point, which you clearly missed, was: Why are you taking info that is already publicly accessible elsewhere and pasting it on this forum as if it is a valid news item?

From here, it looks like you want to crow about your online feuds with people in Phoenix but you can't get the attention elsewhere so you brought it to BoH. I, for one, don't want it and I think your behavior is insolent.
I don't see what the big deal is. If somebody sees or has an exchange on another site/forum and thinks its relevant to the discussion here whats the harm? I have HF boards open as I am doing other stuff on my computer all day, but its not like I have 4 browsers open searching for all things Coyotes all over the internet.

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12-03-2012, 05:47 PM
  #395
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First, this topic is like crack. once hooked tough to get off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I must stand up for imbecile RoboCall guy here. If he wanted his words posted on our forum, he would have put them here. Further, if anyone here wanted to read uneducated lunatic thoughts from RoboCall guy, wouldn't they join Twitter and go read them first hand?

What is it about internet culture that makes people copy/paste comments from one site to another without consent of the author? It really is awful etiquette.
Since he posted it in a public forum, permission is not needed to reproduce or quote the item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Well, if those dog lovers walk their dogs in public in Glendale, then yes. Especially if they take their dogs to dog parks, etc. in Glendale.

We don't go on about minding your own business. We go on about how some Canadians act like they care about the CoG and the taxpayers in the city of Glendale. They are "outraged" and "feel bad for Glendale taxpayers" but that isn't the case at all for the most part. There are other motives afoot and as I said before, very transparent. Your bias may be shielding you from seeing it but for most people without a horse in the race, it is blatantly obvious.

You want the Coyotes to move to a Canadian city. Please stop acting like you are concerned about how the NHL will look to everyone else or other major sports leagues. Please stop acting like you care about how a city in another country spends its money. Please stop acting like everyone who doesn't agree with you on the GCC is stupid or not aware of how things work or are 'over their heads'.

Just say what you really mean and that you want the Coyotes to move because you want another team in Canada (or another US city you pretend to care about).



/rant
THe point is COG is hypocritical, especially Clark. She rants about Canadians and others and discounts their opinions yet she gives credibility to the same type of person if they share her viewpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
It's 2012 and this is internet. What ever you say, write, post, do on the internet, is indeed public.
Yes and no. If I private message someone or send an e-mail only to one person, that is not public. If I blog or tweet it is public but there are also copyright laws that would apply but generally, tweeting is public forum and free to republish. If not, you should not be able to retweet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Some people are just fascinated by the whole melodrama, and the increasing possibility that we might see a "Business of Hockey" milestone - a city actually going under financially in an attempt to appease the financial demands/needs of the NHL.

Whatever one's motives, this is undoubtedly a spectacle of significant proportions.
Should be fun!!

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12-03-2012, 05:52 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Well, if those dog lovers walk their dogs in public in Glendale, then yes. Especially if they take their dogs to dog parks, etc. in Glendale.

We don't go on about minding your own business. We go on about how some Canadians act like they care about the CoG and the taxpayers in the city of Glendale. They are "outraged" and "feel bad for Glendale taxpayers" but that isn't the case at all for the most part. There are other motives afoot and as I said before, very transparent. Your bias may be shielding you from seeing it but for most people without a horse in the race, it is blatantly obvious.

You want the Coyotes to move to a Canadian city. Please stop acting like you are concerned about how the NHL will look to everyone else or other major sports leagues. Please stop acting like you care about how a city in another country spends its money. Please stop acting like everyone who doesn't agree with you on the GCC is stupid or not aware of how things work or are 'over their heads'.

Just say what you really mean and that you want the Coyotes to move because you want another team in Canada (or another US city you pretend to care about).



/rant
That's fair.

While we're at it, why don't you and other Coyote fans stop giving us this BS about “this deal is really about saving Westgate” or “preserving the vision of Westgate”. Your support of this deal is all about keeping your pass time in Glendale, regardless of cost.

If you had any objectivity about this situation you'd see that this gift to the JSG is a horrible deal for the CoG. The only thing positive I can say about it is that it may be better than the parking & bonds fiasco that was planned for Hulsizer.

The CoG was driving towards their own “fiscal cliff”. With the JSG deal, they've decided to step on the gas.

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12-03-2012, 06:10 PM
  #397
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Aa3 and on the way to junk status.
Just to clarify, the Moody's report linked by Thomas L was the January 20, 2012 report when the city's general rating was downgraded from Aa2 to Aa3. But Sonny Munshi's Twitter quote by Whileee is for the November 30, 2012 downgrade (which hasn't been linked on this board I believe).

For those scoring at home, that's 2 more notches down the rating scale, from Aa3 to A2. And a negative outlook to boot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody's report
SUMMARY RATINGS RATIONALE

The downgrade of the city's unlimited tax G.O. rating to A2 primarily reflects high exposure to enterprise risk and related deterioration of the city's financial position driven by payments to the National Hockey League (NHL) for operating losses of the Phoenix Coyotes; this led to significant declines in general fund reserves in fiscal years 2011 and 2012. The downgrade also reflects continued though moderating declines in the city's tax base and economy driven by the effects of a broad housing downturn and a recessionary environment expected to realize a slow recovery. Additionally, the downgrade reflects volatility in economically-sensitive excise tax revenues that are the general fund's largest operating resources, and a high debt burden that includes significant leveraging of excise taxes to support sports facilities with revenues that would otherwise be available for general operations.

The rating outlook on the city remains negative and reflects Moody's expectation that the city will remain challenged to balance its budget over the medium-term given an expected slow economic recovery and a high level of fixed costs. Importantly, the city's recently implemented five-year increase in the city's general sales tax rate to 1.9% from 1.2% will provide significant additional operating revenues to the general fund until fiscal 2017; however, it is expected that management will still need to implement additional and politically challenging measures in an effort to reduce annual operating deficits and achieve long-term fiscal balance that will require action over several years. Additionally, on November 27, 2012 the city council approved a Jobing.com Arena agreement that would require the city to pay management fees annually for at least the next twenty years that are expected to pressure the city's general fund performance, though arena management payments would be substantially reduced relative to arena payments from fiscal years 2011 and 2012.
At first I only glanced at the report and didn't notice the reference to last week's vote, so I went to the COG website and wondered whether they had released the annual report for FY2012. They haven't but they have released the 4th quarter summary. Sorry if this has been posted before -- the PDF was created back in September but I don't remember seeing a link on the BOH.

That report is unsurprisingly vague with respect to the big picture but one can notice that the general fund posted a $10 million deficit in FY2012; that's BEFORE the $25 million payment to the NHL (budgeted at $20 million). It's unclear whether the aforementioned Moody's report took this into account (hopefully for Glendale, it did).

The FY2011 annual report was dated December 12, 2011, so we should have something interesting to read soon

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12-03-2012, 06:26 PM
  #398
OthmarAmmann
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
That report is unsurprisingly vague with respect to the big picture but one can notice that the general fund posted a $10 million deficit in FY2012; that's BEFORE the $25 million payment to the NHL (budgeted at $20 million). It's unclear whether the aforementioned Moody's report took this into account (hopefully for Glendale, it did).
I believe the payment was made from one of the enterprise funds, to be repaid from the general fund over 25 years starting in 2015 (similar arrangement to last year).

Yay Glendale. Some interesting Chapter 9 case law to come out of this.

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12-03-2012, 06:28 PM
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I haven't look at muni bond spreads in a while, does any one know how many more basis points the yield has to be on a A2 vs AA3?

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12-03-2012, 06:28 PM
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Just to clarify, the Moody's report linked by Thomas L was the January 20, 2012 report when the city's general rating was downgraded from Aa2 to Aa3. But Sonny Munshi's Twitter quote by Whileee is for the November 30, 2012 downgrade (which hasn't been linked on this board I believe).

For those scoring at home, that's 2 more notches down the rating scale, from Aa3 to A2. And a negative outlook to boot.



At first I only glanced at the report and didn't notice the reference to last week's vote, so I went to the COG website and wondered whether they had released the annual report for FY2012. They haven't but they have released the 4th quarter summary. Sorry if this has been posted before -- the PDF was created back in September but I don't remember seeing a link on the BOH.

That report is unsurprisingly vague with respect to the big picture but one can notice that the general fund posted a $10 million deficit in FY2012; that's BEFORE the $25 million payment to the NHL (budgeted at $20 million). It's unclear whether the aforementioned Moody's report took this into account (hopefully for Glendale, it did).

The FY2011 annual report was dated December 12, 2011, so we should have something interesting to read soon
Those guys at Moody's sound like real killjoys. Didn't they include any of the glowing reports from Clark that this deal will turn Westgate into a financial juggernaut that will fill Glendale's coffers for years to come?

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