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20 Greatest Red Wings (#10)

View Poll Results: Who is the #10 Red Wing of All-Time?
Kris Draper 1 1.96%
Norm Ullman 1 1.96%
Brendan Shanahan 8 15.69%
Marcel Dionne 0 0%
Syd Howe 3 5.88%
Pavel Datsyuk 24 47.06%
Henrik Zetterberg 6 11.76%
Larry Aurie 0 0%
Marty Barry 0 0%
Mickey Redmond 0 0%
Igor Larionov 0 0%
Bob Probert 0 0%
John Ogrodnick 0 0%
Tomas Holmstrom 0 0%
Jack Stewart 1 1.96%
Ebbie Goodfellow 0 0%
Bill Quackenbush 0 0%
Chris Chelios 1 1.96%
Vladimir Konstantinov 3 5.88%
Paul Coffey 1 1.96%
Dominik Hasek 1 1.96%
Chris Osgood 1 1.96%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-03-2012, 06:25 PM
  #51
mouser
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Black Jack, all the young whippersnappers around here.

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Old
12-03-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Scoring was lower during Z's best years than during Shanahan's time in Detroit.
What are you talking about? Shanahan's years in Detroit fall right in the center of the Dead Puck Era.

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12-03-2012, 07:34 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What are you talking about? Shanahan's years in Detroit fall right in the center of the Dead Puck Era.
http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php

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Old
12-03-2012, 07:36 PM
  #54
The Zetterberg Era
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I think it is prett safe to call this poll. Might as well just get to the Shanahan versus Z round.

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12-03-2012, 09:20 PM
  #55
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12-03-2012, 09:38 PM
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This is why you are severly confused. You can't compare cross era like that. If you put Kronwall in the 50s (meaning he would be born in the 30s) he would have exactly the same training as Kelly and vice versa. Kronwall would have a wooden stick and heavy skates. He would most likely be a fringer or an AHL player.

We are comparing Kelly to his peers and how he dominated in his era which Kronwall did not. Fedorov dominated for maybe a season or two. Kelly dominated for his entire career with the Wings.

We are talking about a defenseman who was considered the best in the world at that time vs. a center who rarely were top-5 during his career.
Kelly vs. Kronwall is a silly comparison.

Kelly vs. Fedorov is better. And I disagree about Fedorov rarely being top-five; He was competing against Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Modano, and Lindros for those spots. Not top five every year? Sure. Rarely? That's a big jump.

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12-03-2012, 09:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What are you talking about? Shanahan's years in Detroit fall right in the center of the Dead Puck Era.
I said BEST years.

Look up scoring average for Z's best years against Shanahan's best years.

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12-03-2012, 09:52 PM
  #58
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i think zetterberg has been pretty clearly better than shanahan was from '97-'06.


shanahan: 633p, +144 in 716 games; 74p, +26 in 106 playoff games

zetterberg: 624p, +144 in 668 games; 102p, +38 in 109 playoff games


zetterberg was a lot better defensively, and his '08 season was better than any season shanahan had here. his '08 and '09 playoffs were better than any shanahan had here. and i could go on. shanahan's only real advantage is physicality.

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12-03-2012, 09:54 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Kelly vs. Kronwall is a silly comparison.

Kelly vs. Fedorov is better. And I disagree about Fedorov rarely being top-five; He was competing against Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Modano, and Lindros for those spots. Not top five every year? Sure. Rarely? That's a big jump.
He wasnt top-5 a lot. Besides Kelly were #1 every year.

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12-03-2012, 09:58 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I said BEST years.

Look up scoring average for Z's best years against Shanahan's best years.
No you wrote Shanahans years in Detroit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Scoring was lower during Z's best years than during Shanahan's time in Detroit. Z is so much better defensively it's stupid.

Ranking Shanahan over Zetterberg is another way of saying one of three things:

1) I think it's more important that a player be physical than that he actually be effective.

2) Older players are better.

3) I have no idea how to evaluate talent.
I agree with you that Z is better than Shanahan in every way except being physical.


Last edited by jkrx: 12-03-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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Old
12-03-2012, 10:00 PM
  #61
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There are too many factors in play to say which one I'd take over which. Do we get them from age 22? For their whole career? In the run and gun early 90s, the trap-happy late 90s and early 00s, the more open late 00s, the re-trapped early 10s? Do we have a lot of centers to go with them? Do we have a lot of scoring wingers? Do we have anybody that can take and give a hit and a punch? Shanny was a better player for longer, at least so far. Who you'd take is dependent on what else you have to work with and what you're missing.

Shanny's a Hall of Famer, Z's not there yet. Even if you compare just their Detroit years, Shanny's 9 Wing years were better than Z's first 9. 57 more goals. 9 more points. 2 more Cups.
Cups =/= personal greatness. That is a team thing.

Offensively, the two players are comparable, definitely an edge to Shanahan though.

Defensively, Shanny is no where near Zetterberg.

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12-03-2012, 10:20 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
No you wrote Shanahans years in Detroit.
Well, I meant his best years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
He wasnt top-5 a lot. Besides Kelly were #1 every year.
IMHO, Fedorov was a top-five center seven times in twelve years with Detroit.

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12-03-2012, 10:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
Offensively, the two players are comparable, definitely an edge to Shanahan though.
Is there?

Shanahan finished top ten in league scoring twice in his career. Once as a Wing (tenth, 1996-97) and once as a Blue (8th, 1993-94).

Z has already finished top-ten twice as well (6th, 2007-08; 8th 2010-11).

Z has also had the better peak seasons as a Wing.

Offensively, Z has a small edge. Defensively, Z has an ocean of win.

Overall, one of them is much better than the other, and it's Zetterberg.

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12-04-2012, 03:43 AM
  #64
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Quote:
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Well, I meant his best years.



IMHO, Fedorov was a top-five center seven times in twelve years with Detroit.
What metric are you using? Points?

'91

CENTER: Wayne Gretzky 328 (65-1-0); Adam Oates 132 (1-36-19); Joe Sakic 61 (0-16-13); Steve Yzerman 44 (0-8-20); Jeremy Roenick 20 (0-4-8); Theo Fleury 4 (0-1-1); John Cullen 2 (0-0-2); Craig Janney 2 (0-0-2); Mark Messier 1 (0-0-1)

'92

CENTER: Mark Messier 233 (38-11-10); Mario Lemieux 192 (20-26-14); Wayne Gretzky 73 (3-10-28); Jeremy Roenick 70 (4-14-8); Pat Lafontaine 11 (0-2-5); Steve Yzerman 6 (0-2-0)
Left Wing: Kevin Stevens 316 (62-2-0); Luc Robitaille 151 (2-41-18); Gary Roberts 96 (1-20-31); Vincent Damphousse 7 (0-1-4); Dave Andreychuk 7 (0-0-7); Paul Ysebaert 3 (0-1-0); Kirk Muller 2 (0-0-2); Derek King 1 (0-0-1); Claude Lemieux 1 (0-0-1); Kelly Miller 1 (0-0-1)

'93
Centre
1. Mark Messier 233 (38-11-10)
2. Mario Lemieux 192 (20-26-14)
3. Wayne Gretzky 73 (3-10-28)
4. Jeremy Roenick 70 (4-14-8)
5. Pat Lafontaine 11 (0-2-5)
6. Steve Yzerman 6 (0-2-0)

'94

CENTER: Sergei Fedorov, Detroit 223 (33-19-1); Wayne Gretzky, LA 147 (18-15-12); Doug Gilmour, Toronto 68 (3-12-17); Adam Oates, Boston 26 (0-4-14); Jeremy Roenick, Chicago 9 (0-2-3); Mike Modano, Dallas 4 (0-1-1); Geoff Sanderson, Hartford 3 (0-1-0); Eric Lindros, Philadelphia 3 (0-0-3); Igor Larionov, San Jose 1 (0-0-1); Ron Francis, Pittsburgh 1 (0-0-1); Mark Messier, NY Rangers 1 (0-0-1)

'95

CENTER: Eric Lindros 75 (15-0-0); Alexei Zhamnov 33 (0-10-3); Ron Francis 18 (0-4-6); Joe Sakic 8 (0-1-5); Sergei Fedorov 1 (0-0-1); Joe Nieuwendyk 0 (0-0-0)

'96

CENTER: Mario Lemieux 256 (50-2-0); Eric Lindros 80 (2-19-13); Mark Messier 57 (1-14-10); Joe Sakic 43 (0-11-10); Peter Forsberg 19 (0-3-10); Sergei Fedorov 16 (0-3-7); Ron Francis 6 (0-1-3)

'97

CENTER: Mario Lemieux 256 (50-2-0); Wayne Gretzky 65 (1-16-12); Peter Forsberg 58 (0-16-10); Mike Modano 54 (1-11-16); Eric Lindros 25 (1-5-5); Mats Sundin 14 (0-2-8); Joe Sakic 3 (0-1-0); Ron Francis 1 (0-0-1); Pierre Turgeon 1 (0-0-1)

'98

CENTER: Peter Forsberg 195 (32-9-8); Wayne Gretzky 130 (11-21-12); Ron Francis 87 (7-12-16); Jason Allison 27 (3-1-9); Joe Nieuwendyk 11 (0-3-2); Bobby Holik 7 (0-2-1); Mike Modano 6 (0-2-0); Mats Sundin 6 (0-2-0); Eric Lindros 4 (0-1-1); Keith Primeau 1 (0-0-1); Adam Oates 1 (0-0-1); Steve Yzerman 1 (0-0-1)


'99
CENTER: Peter Forsberg 187 (27-14-0); Alexei Yashin 157 (18-18-13); Eric Lindros 101 (5-18-22); Joe Sakic 33 (3-3-9); Mike Modano 14 (1-3-0); Jaromir jagr 5 (1-0-0); Steve Yzerman 5 (1-0-0); Martin Straka 2 (0-0-2)

2000

Centre

1. Steve Yzerman 186 (19-28-7)
2. Mike Modano 176 (24-15-11)
3. Joe Sakic 104 (11-10-19)
4. Jeremy Roenick 32 (3-2-11)
5. Mats Sundin 8 (0-1-5)
6. Martin Straka 3 (0-1-0)
7. Doug Gilmour 2 (0-0-2)
8. Viktor Kozlov 1 (0-0-1)
Pierre Turgeon1 (0-0-1)

2000-2001 NHL ALL-STAR TEAM

CENTER

1. Joe Sakic, COL 291 (54-7-0)
2. Mario Lemieux, PIT 112 (7-23-8)
3. Doug Weight, EDM 34 (0-8-10)
4. Mike Modano, DAL 28 (0-6-10)
5. Jason Allison, BOS 23 (0-4-11)
6. Peter Forsberg, COL 22 (0-5-7)
7. Alexei Yashin, OTT 14 (0-2-8)
8. Martin Straka, PIT 13 (0-3-4)
9. Sergei Fedorov, DET 6 (0-2-0)
10. Keith Primeau, PHI 3 (0-1-0)
11. Adam Oates, WSH 2 (0-0-2)
12. Petr Sykora, N.J. 1 (0-0-1)

2002

Center
Sakic 193 (27-18-4)
Sundin 160 (21-15-10)
Francis 85 (7-14-8)
Modano 29 (1-4-12)
Roenick 19 (2-2-3)
Allison 16 (1-2-5)
Conroy 14 (1-1-6)
Oates 9 (0-2-3)
Yashin 7 (0-1-4)
Thorton 3 (0-1-0)

2003

CENTER: Peter Forsberg 304 (59-3-0); Joe Thorton 163 (2-49-6); Mike Modano 37 (1-4-20); Mario Lemieux 36 (0-5-21); Sergei Fedorov 8 (0-1-5); Pavol Demitra 8 (0-0-8); Vibcent Lecavalier 1 (0-0-1); Mats Sundin 1 (0-0-1)

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