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team with the best D prospect.

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Old
12-03-2012, 12:09 AM
  #126
MALKIN NTHE MIDDLE
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1.Pens: Pouliot,Morrow, Maatta,Harrington,Despres
2.Oilers:Schultz ,Klefbom,Marincin,Gernat, Musil

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12-03-2012, 12:16 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Tonight We Are Young View Post
1.Pens: Pouliot,Morrow, Maatta,Harrington,Despres
2.Oilers:Schultz ,Klefbom,Marincin,Gernat, Musil
oilers are middle of the pack at best, the drop-off after schultz and klefbom is really high.

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12-03-2012, 12:25 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
oilers are middle of the pack at best, the drop-off after schultz and klefbom is really high.
When is the drop-off not high after a team's top two (Pittsburgh, Phoenix, maybe Nashville being the only exceptions)? I'd say the Oilers are around fifth, definitely better than "middle of the pack." Marincin is an excellent prospect who's excelled at pretty much every level, and who is currently the Barons' most solid presence in the defensive zone as an AHL rookie, in addition to having 11 pts in 18 games.

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12-03-2012, 12:27 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
When is the drop-off not high after a team's top two (Pittsburgh, Phoenix, maybe Nashville being the only exceptions)? I'd say the Oilers are around fifth, definitely better than "middle of the pack."
after the two i named you are basically looking at bottom pairing guys.

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12-03-2012, 12:35 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
after the two i named you are basically looking at bottom pairing guys.
No, definitely not. Marincin has definite top-four upside (11 pts in 18 games in addition to being the Barons' most solid presence in the defensive zone as an AHL rookie). Musil is a very safe bet to become an NHLer as a bottom-4 guy. Gernat is a boom-or-bust guy who could be a huge steal if he "booms." (Among the points leaders in the dub last year for defensemen, led the league in +/-). Unfortunately he's been injured all year. Laleggia (although more defensively sound) is in the same boat. Then there's a bunch of depth guys who have the potential to surprise (Simpson, Fedun, Davidson, Bigos, Teubert, etc...).
I feel you haven't informed yourself much on the Oilers prospects because the top five all have top four potential.

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12-03-2012, 12:45 AM
  #131
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oilers are middle of the pack at best, the drop-off after schultz and klefbom is really high.
Schultz, as a dman, is the leading scorer in a league that includes an nhl all star in eberle, the 2011 and 2012 first overall picks, brayden schenn (ranked best prospect by Hockey News a couple years back) and lots more high-profile prospects. Needless to say he is an elite prospect. Klefbom was having a great year in the SEL and was one of the top 2 dmen of the WJHC. Just these two players alone would put Edmonton way above the middle of the pack. Quality over quantity in my opinion. A good team only needs 2-3 of their d prospects to turn out for them to be successful. May as well have 2 d with 1-2 potential than 6 with 5-6 potential

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12-03-2012, 01:21 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Tonight We Are Young View Post
1.Pens: Pouliot,Morrow, Maatta,Harrington,Despres
2.Oilers:Schultz ,Klefbom,Marincin,Gernat, Musil
Schultz is one of he top prospects in the world, I wouldn't trade him for any other prospect.
Him alone should put the Oilers group over the middle of the pack and you add a guy like Klefbom your certainly looking at the top of the group.
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
after the two i named you are basically looking at bottom pairing guys.
You can pretty much say the same thing about every other team.

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12-03-2012, 02:40 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
I guess you're right but he still has immense potential no matter which way you look at it. The term "high end" is so subjective and irrational anyway, it doesn't really matter haha. You also said he is a "project," which I don't really agree with. Most Oilers fans are considering him to be very close to NHL-ready, as he definitely has NHL skills (in the defensive zone at least). He'll either make the team next year or the year after that.
Rushing Klefblom into the NHL could be disastrous for his development.

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12-03-2012, 09:19 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Tonight We Are Young View Post
Schultz is one of he top prospects in the world, I wouldn't trade him for any other prospect.
Him alone should put the Oilers group over the middle of the pack and you add a guy like Klefbom your certainly looking at the top of the group.

You can pretty much say the same thing about every other team.
That's a pretty bold statement, considering most other top prospects are 3 or 4 years younger than him. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Hamilton, Murray, Rielly, Reinhart, and a few others become better players once they hit 22 years of age.

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12-03-2012, 09:24 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
Surprised I haven't seen Detroit mentioned yet:

Brendan Smith
Xavier Ouellet
Ryan Sproul
Nick Jensen
Alexei Marchenko
Mattias Backman
Adam Almqvist
Richard Nedomlel
Chad Billins
Not one of the best imo.

Lacks high end talent compared to other teams.

Billins has only AHL contract with Griffins, I think.

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12-03-2012, 11:30 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Yes. I just can't believe Toronto is included on everyone's top 5 lists when Edmonton is barely included on any. Klefbom >> Finn, Marincin => Percy based on credentials / everything I've ever heard.
I think Toronto's D is top 5 worthy, not because of our top 5 (Gardiner, Reilly, Finn, Percy and Blacker), but our depth.

Look at guys like Holzer (could be leafs #6 this season), Granberg (underrated), Nilsson (underrated), MacWilliam (Captain of North Dakota, Also Underrated), and other guys like Loov, Robertson, Knodel and Everson... we have pretty good depth at this position.

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12-03-2012, 11:48 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
Surprised I haven't seen Detroit mentioned yet:

Brendan Smith
Xavier Ouellet
Ryan Sproul
Nick Jensen
Alexei Marchenko
Mattias Backman
Adam Almqvist
Richard Nedomlel
Chad Billins
Chad Billins isn't signed by Detroit. He's on an AHL contract and free to sign with any NHL team once the lockout ends.

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12-03-2012, 12:57 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
I think Toronto's D is top 5 worthy, not because of our top 5 (Gardiner, Reilly, Finn, Percy and Blacker), but our depth.

Look at guys like Holzer (could be leafs #6 this season), Granberg (underrated), Nilsson (underrated), MacWilliam (Captain of North Dakota, Also Underrated), and other guys like Loov, Robertson, Knodel and Everson... we have pretty good depth at this position.


Every team ever has those type of prospects, thats why there is the NHL draft

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12-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
I think Toronto's D is top 5 worthy, not because of our top 5 (Gardiner, Reilly, Finn, Percy and Blacker), but our depth.

Look at guys like Holzer (could be leafs #6 this season), Granberg (underrated), Nilsson (underrated), MacWilliam (Captain of North Dakota, Also Underrated), and other guys like Loov, Robertson, Knodel and Everson... we have pretty good depth at this position.
I really don't know what it'll take for select Leafs fans to realize that Gardiner isn't a prospect. He played an entire damn NHL season.

By that standard, the Oilers could count RNH as a prospect, which would be retarded. Enough.

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12-03-2012, 02:18 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
[/B]
Every team ever has those type of prospects, thats why there is the NHL draft
But the players I outlined as underrated have had a couple years of development, and I think that it could very well be possible that 2 (if not more) of those four (MacWilliam, Holzer, Granberg, and Nilsson) will be NHL players. These four in particular don't get much attention by many hockey fans, but have what it takes to make it to the big show IMHO.


Blacker, Reilly, Finn, Percy, Gardiner, Holzer, MacWilliam, Granberg and Nilsson will all likely get contracts by the leafs if they haven't already. Not many teams can say that they currently have 9 defensive prospects that will get NHL contracts.




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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I really don't know what it'll take for select Leafs fans to realize that Gardiner isn't a prospect. He played an entire damn NHL season.

By that standard, the Oilers could count RNH as a prospect, which would be retarded. Enough.
1] Please don't generalize my position to all leaf fans... if you agree with me or not, It doesn't really represent what Leafs fans in general believe.... these are my opinions.

2] Using better language wouldn't hurt either. I find the use of 'retarded' out of context quite offensive, and degrading to people with mental deficiencies.


I consider Jake Gardiner a prospect because I personally don't believe that he's yet solidified himself as a legitimate NHLer yet. He hasn't solidified himself as a bonified top pairing, second pairing, or bottom pairing... I think far too many people evaluate players based off of a single season performance, which I think is wrong. I think Jake is an incredibly talented player, but he needs to round off his game. He needs to develop a better shot. He needs to round off his defensive game. I do beleive he will do this, but to me, he's still a propsect.

My definition of prospect would round off to other players as well, even RNH. RNH is an incredible talent, and likely will be a #1C, and was the #1 pick for a reason. But the guy is only 19.... 19 year olds to me are prospects still... We don't know what kind of player he will become... a perenial 70 point player? A 120+ point player? I don't know.

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12-03-2012, 02:47 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
But the players I outlined as underrated have had a couple years of development, and I think that it could very well be possible that 2 (if not more) of those four (MacWilliam, Holzer, Granberg, and Nilsson) will be NHL players. These four in particular don't get much attention by many hockey fans, but have what it takes to make it to the big show IMHO.


Blacker, Reilly, Finn, Percy, Gardiner, Holzer, MacWilliam, Granberg and Nilsson will all likely get contracts by the leafs if they haven't already. Not many teams can say that they currently have 9 defensive prospects that will get NHL contracts.




1] Please don't generalize my position to all leaf fans... if you agree with me or not, It doesn't really represent what Leafs fans in general believe.... these are my opinions.

2] Using better language wouldn't hurt either. I find the use of 'retarded' out of context quite offensive, and degrading to people with mental deficiencies.


I consider Jake Gardiner a prospect because I personally don't believe that he's yet solidified himself as a legitimate NHLer yet. He hasn't solidified himself as a bonified top pairing, second pairing, or bottom pairing... I think far too many people evaluate players based off of a single season performance, which I think is wrong. I think Jake is an incredibly talented player, but he needs to round off his game. He needs to develop a better shot. He needs to round off his defensive game. I do beleive he will do this, but to me, he's still a propsect.

My definition of prospect would round off to other players as well, even RNH. RNH is an incredible talent, and likely will be a #1C, and was the #1 pick for a reason. But the guy is only 19.... 19 year olds to me are prospects still... We don't know what kind of player he will become... a perenial 70 point player? A 120+ point player? I don't know.
Maybe 1 of the group will be NHL. its more likely that 1 of Finn/Blacker/Percy will reach potential and 1 will be bottom pairing. Not trying to hate,but look at d prospects from 5-6 years ago and see how many made it.

I posted earlier that a good prospect group has 1-2 elite prospects that will likely reach potential, and 3-4 good prospects where one will make it. Aside from Reilly/Gardiner, Alot of teams has prospects of Percy/Blacker caliber. Those players arent bad, but they are redundant.

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12-03-2012, 03:18 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
1] Please don't generalize my position to all leaf fans... if you agree with me or not, It doesn't really represent what Leafs fans in general believe.... these are my opinions.
"select Leaf fans" is not a generalization. Exactly the opposite, in fact, since it's explicit in singling out one segment of the fanbase.

Quote:
I consider Jake Gardiner a prospect because I personally don't believe that he's yet solidified himself as a legitimate NHLer yet. He hasn't solidified himself as a bonified top pairing, second pairing, or bottom pairing... I think far too many people evaluate players based off of a single season performance, which I think is wrong. I think Jake is an incredibly talented player, but he needs to round off his game. He needs to develop a better shot. He needs to round off his defensive game. I do beleive he will do this, but to me, he's still a propsect.

My definition of prospect would round off to other players as well, even RNH. RNH is an incredible talent, and likely will be a #1C, and was the #1 pick for a reason. But the guy is only 19.... 19 year olds to me are prospects still... We don't know what kind of player he will become... a perenial 70 point player? A 120+ point player? I don't know.
Your definition is so nebulous that it precludes informed discussion on the subject. We need well-defined criteria here, otherwise you could make any old argument you want.

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12-03-2012, 04:16 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
"select Leaf fans" is not a generalization. Exactly the opposite, in fact, since it's explicit in singling out one segment of the fanbase.



Your definition is so nebulous that it precludes informed discussion on the subject. We need well-defined criteria here, otherwise you could make any old argument you want.
I think some of them just really want to win this poll/vote/whatever. In this thread, Gardiner hasn't established himself so he's still a prospect. In another, Gardiner is already a solid 2nd pairing, borderline 1st pairing defenseman who is on par with guys like OEL and Pietrangelo.

It's a matter of context. Either way, if this guy were on the Blue Jackets I doubt 85% of HF would know who he was.

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12-03-2012, 10:32 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
I consider Jake Gardiner a prospect because I personally don't believe that he's yet solidified himself as a legitimate NHLer yet. He hasn't solidified himself as a bonified top pairing, second pairing, or bottom pairing... I think far too many people evaluate players based off of a single season performance, which I think is wrong. I think Jake is an incredibly talented player, but he needs to round off his game. He needs to develop a better shot. He needs to round off his defensive game. I do beleive he will do this, but to me, he's still a propsect.

My definition of prospect would round off to other players as well, even RNH. RNH is an incredible talent, and likely will be a #1C, and was the #1 pick for a reason. But the guy is only 19.... 19 year olds to me are prospects still... We don't know what kind of player he will become... a perenial 70 point player? A 120+ point player? I don't know.
So in your world a 19yr old Sidney Crosby was just a prospect still when he was winning the Art Ross, Ted Lindsay, and Hart trophies? Gardiner played 75 games in the NHL last season. That's pretty much the definition of an NHL regular and not a prospect still trying to break into the league full-time. I mean he played more NHL games last season (75) than he played total games in college, the AHL, and the WJC combined over the past 2 years (62). He's an NHL player and definitely not a prospect anymore.

And let's stick to realism ok? Gardiner is not going to be a 70 point player. Not even sure why you'd toss 120+ out there for a D. This isn't Bobby Orr we're talking about, no matter how much you might want to ride the hype train to fantasy land.

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12-03-2012, 10:38 PM
  #145
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So in your world a 19yr old Sidney Crosby was just a prospect still when he was winning the Art Ross, Ted Lindsay, and Hart trophies? Gardiner played 75 games in the NHL last season. That's pretty much the definition of an NHL regular and not a prospect still trying to break into the league full-time. I mean he played more NHL games last season (75) than he played total games in college, the AHL, and the WJC combined over the past 2 years (62). He's an NHL player and definitely not a prospect anymore.

And let's stick to realism ok? Gardiner is not going to be a 70 point player. Not even sure why you'd toss 120+ out there for a D. This isn't Bobby Orr we're talking about, no matter how much you might want to ride the hype train to fantasy land.
I think he was referring to RNH when he said 70 point player or 120+.

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12-03-2012, 10:45 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I really don't know what it'll take for select Leafs fans to realize that Gardiner isn't a prospect. He played an entire damn NHL season.

By that standard, the Oilers could count RNH as a prospect, which would be retarded. Enough.
Why arent you *****ing at the Scandellas, Ellis', Josis, ,etc. etc. etc. in this thread? Why are people singling out Leaf fans for including Gardiner?

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12-04-2012, 03:08 AM
  #147
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Mistake.....


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12-04-2012, 03:16 AM
  #148
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The average NHL defenseman is between 6'1" and 6'2" and weighs about 210lbs. Brodin is 6'1" and should fill out to be at least 200lbs. Dumba is 6' and will likely top 200lbs as well. They're very very very slightly below average sized defensemen. An "undersized" defenseman would be someone like Spurgeon (5'9"), Murphy (5'11" 168lbs), or Karlsson (5'11" 172lbs). Dumba will fill out to be about the same size as Doughty (6' 212lbs) and Brodin will be the same size as Suter (6'1" 194lbs).

There's literally no way to justify the claim that Dumba and Brodin are "undersized."
Ok, fair enough... So, by that logic the Oilers top 6 havent been undersized for the past few years either. Nor was Theo Fleury. I didnt say smaller players cant succeed. I simply stated size is against them. Both are great talents that will face challenges that a larger bodied player would not.

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12-04-2012, 04:04 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
Surprised I haven't seen Detroit mentioned yet:

Brendan Smith
Xavier Ouellet
Ryan Sproul
Nick Jensen
Alexei Marchenko
Mattias Backman
Adam Almqvist
Richard Nedomlel
Chad Billins

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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Not one of the best imo.

Lacks high end talent compared to other teams.
You haven't seen Ouellet enough yet. He plays that "hidden" but supersolid "Lidström" game. But you will see more in the WJC. Sproul and Smith in the TOP3, this is a great group. Not best, but pretty decent. Others are just long shots. If someone breaks out, even better. Chelios, Fischer and Lidström are developing these guys. With 10 Norris Trophy + 8 Stanley Cup experience. I'm quite sure there will be good results, when they are ready.

Red Wings will be very competitive with this big three + Kronwall in the future. Ouellet is 6'1, Sproul 6'4, Smith 6'2, no midgets either.

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12-04-2012, 06:22 AM
  #150
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You haven't seen Ouellet enough yet. He plays that "hidden" but supersolid "Lidström" game. But you will see more in the WJC. Sproul and Smith in the TOP3, this is a great group. Not best, but pretty decent. Others are just long shots. If someone breaks out, even better. Chelios, Fischer and Lidström are developing these guys. With 10 Norris Trophy + 8 Stanley Cup experience. I'm quite sure there will be good results, when they are ready.

Red Wings will be very competitive with this big three + Kronwall in the future. Ouellet is 6'1, Sproul 6'4, Smith 6'2, no midgets either.
Yes, I haven't seen Ouellet much, around 10-12 games the last year. But based on that and from what I've read, he isn't 'as lock' to be top pairing guy as someone like Brodin or Hamilton.

I agree it's a great group not the best, that's what I was saying. Just missing Seth Jones there .

Marchenko has looked solid to me, I wouldn't say he's as long shot compared to those others.

But as a summary, I like our group. We have drafted well recently, now we just need to develop these kids well. Much easier as Frasier is gone .

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