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Wild future vs. Oilers future

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:06 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
Having two of the top Free Agents wanting to come home helps doesn't it?

I'm not denying Minnesota's drafting hasn't been great, but really. These two star players picked to sign with you. Without Parise and Suter your team looks a LOT different, now and in future.
Without GMCF trading Burns for Coyle/Phillips/Setoguchi (Freeing up cap space), Trading Havlat for Heatley (giving less room now but freeing up the contract a year earlier, also Heatley called Parise/Suter up to sell them on MN), drafting/acquiring a solid group of prospects, which Parise/Suter said was a big draw for them-the solid future for this club, we never would have gotten those two. So yeah, I'm going to give GMCF and his crew some credit here. If we still had DR as our GM we never would have gotten those two.

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12-04-2012, 09:09 AM
  #77
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Even as an Oiler fan, i would have to say the Wild. They already have a head start with proven commodities like Koivu, Parise and Suter with 2 of those guys being at 2 of the most important positions and their prospect pool is as good if not better than the Oilers, more balance IMO, more 2 way players which is ultimately what winners are built on.
The Oilers probably have a higher ceiling but a lower chance of reaching it, there are simply way too many question marks as of now.
I see the Wild, Blues and Kings being the elite of the west for many years to come with the Blackhawks, Avs and Oilers possibly being in the mix.

Also, Larsson is definitely a better prospect than Lander in reference to the debate on the previous page.


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Old
12-04-2012, 09:13 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I think you are being a bit too generous towards Edmonton with these comparisons.

I don't know how you can say Nugent-Hopkins is better than Koivu, considering what Koivu has already proven. He has averaged over .856 PPG over the past 4 years while playing elite 2-way hockey. At best I'd call them equal, only because of RNH's upside, but at this point I don't see how you can say he is or will be a better player.

Eberle=Parise is a bit of a stretch as well. Eberle had a great year last year. Statistically better than Parise. But Parise has already put up over a PPG twice in his career, including a 94 point season 4 years ago. He's only 28 so I don't see his game starting to decline for at least another 4 or 5 years. While Eberle is still extremely young and should continue to improve, I don't think he has proven enough yet to warrant being put on par with Parise.

This leads me to Schultz>Dumba. Right now I would agree, although going by your listings of RNH>Koivu and Eberle=Parise, shouldn't you have listed Schultz=Dumba? Considering Dumba was just drafted and is 4 years younger than Schultz. His upside is higher than Schultz's upside(similar offensive potential, much more of a physical game). I just think if you are basing your comparisons on potential and how these guys are projected to develop, how can you list Schultz as being better than Dumba? It's inconsistent, IMO.

BTW, regardless of whether or not Brodin is equal to or a better prospect than Klefbom, I wouldn't base my opinion on an HF poster. Even if he/she is Swedish.
I can guarantee you that the 1st overall draft pick who, as an 18 year old rookie, exceeded Koivu's PPG in a similarly injury shortened season, will be the better player when all is said and done.

I wouldn't trade Eberle for Parise simply because of their age difference and cap hits but I agree with you that Parise is ahead at this point.

I like Dumba and think he'll be a quality player one day. A quarter way through the season, Schultz is on pace to win the AHL equivalent of the Hart, Art Ross, and Norris trophies. This really isn't debatable.

Having watched both play, in person, at last year's World Junior and hearing reports of their 19 year old seasons, I prefer Klefbom to Brodin but they are rather close.

Minnesota is going to be a very good team in the not too distant future. That said, as an Oilers fan, I wouldn't swap rosters with them.

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12-04-2012, 10:01 AM
  #79
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12-04-2012, 10:03 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I can guarantee you that the 1st overall draft pick who, as an 18 year old rookie, exceeded Koivu's PPG in a similarly injury shortened season, will be the better player when all is said and done.

I wouldn't trade Eberle for Parise simply because of their age difference and cap hits but I agree with you that Parise is ahead at this point.

I like Dumba and think he'll be a quality player one day. A quarter way through the season, Schultz is on pace to win the AHL equivalent of the Hart, Art Ross, and Norris trophies. This really isn't debatable.

Having watched both play, in person, at last year's World Junior and hearing reports of their 19 year old seasons, I prefer Klefbom to Brodin but they are rather close.

Minnesota is going to be a very good team in the not too distant future. That said, as an Oilers fan, I wouldn't swap rosters with them.
This is what I'm talking about... It's OK to put RNH ahead of Koivu based on potential, but it's "not close" when comparing Schultz and Dumba because Schultz is a better player right now? Dumba is a tremendous prospect, and will probably be an NHLer when he's 20 or 21 years old. Schultz is dominating the AHL at 22 playing with two 1st overall picks and a PPG NHL player. If you have Schultz>Dumba because of where each player is at right now, at least be consistent and list Koivu>RNH.

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12-04-2012, 10:23 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
This is what I'm talking about... It's OK to put RNH ahead of Koivu based on potential, but it's "not close" when comparing Schultz and Dumba because Schultz is a better player right now? Dumba is a tremendous prospect, and will probably be an NHLer when he's 20 or 21 years old. Schultz is dominating the AHL at 22 playing with two 1st overall picks and a PPG NHL player. If you have Schultz>Dumba because of where each player is at right now, at least be consistent and list Koivu>RNH.
I think you might be able to make that argument about Morgan Rielly and Schultz. In my humble opinion, the magnitude of Schultz's AHL accomplishments (to date) put him a cut above Dumba.

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12-04-2012, 10:24 AM
  #82
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one of the 2 teams... AINEC!!!

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12-04-2012, 12:06 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I think you might be able to make that argument about Morgan Rielly and Schultz. In my humble opinion, the magnitude of Schultz's AHL accomplishments (to date) put him a cut above Dumba.
Agreed, Schultz is well on his way to smashing AHL records by D, now I know that Dumba is very talented, but IMO Schultz isn't getting his just due here, I wouldn't trade him for any of the Wild's prospects and that's saying something because they have some dandies.

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Old
12-04-2012, 12:15 PM
  #84
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That's about all there is to it.

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12-04-2012, 12:30 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
This. I am an OIlers' fan, but the veteran core of Backstrom, Koivu, Heatley, Parise, Suter +Granlund, Coyle, Zucker, Dumba, Brodin etc is a better group to go froward with.
For the record, I expect the Wild to be the first team to trump Van at the top of the division... they will be a STRONG team as soon as we start playing hockey again.

But I think within 3 years and at the end of the comparison period, the Oil will have caught up and likely passed the Wild.

The wild have a much better core of players in their prime... but from years 3 thru 7, the Oil will have a much stronger core of players entering their prime while Koivu & Parise (less so for Suter) will start to become less of a factor.

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12-04-2012, 01:00 PM
  #86
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IMO, injuries will play a major role in answering this question. I think both teams will struggle to become the powerhouses most believe they will be because of that very factor.

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12-04-2012, 01:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
The Wild's future has way more uncertainty. Granlund, Brodin, Coyle, Dumba, Larsson, etc.. are just prospects right now. Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Eberle have already established themselves as top caliber players. Yakupov is likely to do so considering most 1st overall picks these days don't flop.

If Minnesota's prospects develop like we all project them too, that team will be a force. Especially considering Parise, Suter and Koivu will be there along with them.

For the sake of comparison in the future;

Yakupov > Granlund
Schultz > Dumba
Klefbom = Brodin
Hartikainen < Coyle
Lander = Larsson

Nugent-Hopkins > Koivu
Eberle = Parise

Then the Wild have Suter, we have Hall. Can't exactly compare them.

I just think the Oilers core is far more of a sure thing, and I don't exactly agree with the depth statements being thrown around.
I absolutely hate this. Well, we are talking about teams, better compare individual players. Completely asinine. Yea, players are the make up of the team. But its how they are used. Obviously, you guys aren't using them correctly if you have so many top picks in a row. And obviously, we aren't much better. But we've been, a little, better. But its no sense in comparing these players when its team game. How often are you going to see Schultz pull and end to end rush and come up to face Dumba as the only defender left?

If you can' agree that the Wild has more depth than the Oilers, then you are a homer. At least a good portion of the Oiler fans in this thread realize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Not if you include Hopkins, Hall, Eberle it isnt. Nice try though. Those players are proven producers in the nhl. What "Wild" prospects can you say that about?

Dont count your chickens son.
How can they be a prospect if they are proven producers in the nhl?

Find your reasoning son.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:20 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Pekka Rinne View Post
Well Suter,Parise and Heatley make 7.5 + Koivu's 6.75=$29.25 mill

Eberle and Hall are already signed at 6 mill, so i suspect they will try and get the other two at around that mark, so that equals 24 mill, even with schultz, that wont equal 30 million.
Heatley only has 2 more years on his contract, and the Wild may sign him back or they might not. If they do resign him as a vet, theres no way that he would get 7.5 mil again. So the Wild wont be giving that much $ away by the time our young guys make it to the bigs.

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12-04-2012, 01:21 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
I absolutely hate this. Well, we are talking about teams, better compare individual players. Completely asinine. Yea, players are the make up of the team. But its how they are used. Obviously, you guys aren't using them correctly if you have so many top picks in a row. And obviously, we aren't much better. But we've been, a little, better. But its no sense in comparing these players when its team game. How often are you going to see Schultz pull and end to end rush and come up to face Dumba as the only defender left?

If you can' agree that the Wild has more depth than the Oilers, then you are a homer. At least a good portion of the Oiler fans in this thread realize it.



How can they be a prospect if they are proven producers in the nhl?

Find your reasoning son
.
The relevant characteristic of a prospect in a discussion like this is his age and contract status. Not how many NHL games he's played.

For the intent and purpose of this discussion the Oilers' first line is composed of prospects.

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12-04-2012, 02:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Not if you include Hopkins, Hall, Eberle it isnt. Nice try though. Those players are proven producers in the nhl. What "Wild" prospects can you say that about?

Dont count your chickens son.
Uh what?

Hopkins has 1 season, could bust.

Hall has two injury plague seasons. Could bust.

Eberle has 1 good season, 2 overall in the NHL. Still could bust.

That's not proven at all.

If you want to look at proven producers in the NHL; Minnesota blows Edmonton out of the water in defense then. Scandella, Spurgeon and Falk along with Brodin, Dumba, Kampfer, Cuma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I think you might be able to make that argument about Morgan Rielly and Schultz. In my humble opinion, the magnitude of Schultz's AHL accomplishments (to date) put him a cut above Dumba.
And the magnitude of Koivu's accomplishments in the NHL and elsewhere puts him a cut above RNH.


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12-04-2012, 02:41 PM
  #91
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Over the next 5 years, I'd give the edge to the Wild. They're set in goal, with Backstrom and Harding for the present (hopefully Harding's MS doesn't affect him a tonne in the near future, really tough disease), and Hackett as a great goalie prospect who is basically NHL ready. They're stacked in terms of forwards too, with a solid set of established players in Koivu, Parise, Heatley, Seto, Brodziak, Cullen, Clutter and PMB, as well as some great prospects (many NHL ready) in Granlund, Coyle, Philips, Larsson, Zucker, etc. On d they've got a stud #1 in Suter, some decent supporting dmen like Gilbert, Scandella and Spurgeon, and some great prospects like Brodin and Dumba.

I can honestly see the Wild as a solid playoff team/borderline contender next year, with the ability to just get better in the future as more and more of their prospects make an impact. The Oilers are unbelievably stacked in terms of high end young forwards (RNH, Hall, Yakupov, Eberle), and they have at least one very good young dman (Schultz), but they don't have a tonne of good vets, and they have more holes than the Wild in general. I think the Wild will be better than the Oilers for the next 2 years, and Oilers vs. Wild in 3-5 years is a bit of a toss up IMO, so I'll take the Wild for the next 5 years.

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12-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #92
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Over the next 5 years, I'd give the edge to the Wild. They're set in goal, with Backstrom and Harding for the present (hopefully Harding's MS doesn't affect him a tonne in the near future, really tough disease), and Hackett as a great goalie prospect who is basically NHL ready. They're stacked in terms of forwards too, with a solid set of established players in Koivu, Parise, Heatley, Seto, Brodziak, Cullen, Clutter and PMB, as well as some great prospects (many NHL ready) in Granlund, Coyle, Philips, Larsson, Zucker, etc. On d they've got a stud #1 in Suter, some decent supporting dmen like Gilbert, Scandella and Spurgeon, and some great prospects like Brodin and Dumba.

I can honestly see the Wild as a solid playoff team/borderline contender next year, with the ability to just get better in the future as more and more of their prospects make an impact. The Oilers are unbelievably stacked in terms of high end young forwards (RNH, Hall, Yakupov, Eberle), and they have at least one very good young dman (Schultz), but they don't have a tonne of good vets, and they have more holes than the Wild in general. I think the Wild will be better than the Oilers for the next 2 years, and Oilers vs. Wild in 3-5 years is a bit of a toss up IMO, so I'll take the Wild for the next 5 years.
I agree with this. Oilers have too many/big question marks for me to put them above Wild over the next 5 years.

But if I had to put money on which team would be more likely to win the over the next 5 years, it would be Oilers. Just that Wild will have better success on most of those years.

Or something like that.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:08 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
How can they be a prospect if they are proven producers in the nhl?

Find your reasoning son.
Thread is Wild future vs Oiler future. People are trying to equate Zucker, Granlund, Phillips etc with Hall, Eberle and Hopkins etc.

It seems pretty clear who is proven and who is not, prospect or not.

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12-04-2012, 04:02 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
The Wild's future has way more uncertainty. Granlund, Brodin, Coyle, Dumba, Larsson, etc.. are just prospects right now. Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Eberle have already established themselves as top caliber players. Yakupov is likely to do so considering most 1st overall picks these days don't flop.

If Minnesota's prospects develop like we all project them too, that team will be a force. Especially considering Parise, Suter and Koivu will be there along with them.

For the sake of comparison in the future;

Yakupov > Granlund
Schultz > Dumba
Klefbom = Brodin
Hartikainen < Coyle
Lander = Larsson

Nugent-Hopkins > Koivu
Eberle = Parise

Then the Wild have Suter, we have Hall. Can't exactly compare them.

I just think the Oilers core is far more of a sure thing, and I don't exactly agree with the depth statements being thrown around.
Love how bias this post is. You stop making comparisons when Edmonton runs out of notable prospects?

Hackett < ???????
Zucker < ???????
Phillips < ???????
Kuemper < ??????
Gustafson < ??????
Lucia < ????????
Haula < ???????
Scandella< ????????

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12-04-2012, 05:39 PM
  #95
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(Vancouver better win soon because both the Wild and Oilers are potential powerhouses in that division in the next 2 or 3 years)
For the sake of everything that is holy, I sure hope the Wild are no longer in the Northwest in 2-3 years. It's been bad enough putting up with road games and an uninteresting division (from a Minnesotan perspective) since this team's inception. Rather not see it continue...

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12-04-2012, 07:18 PM
  #96
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For the sake of everything that is holy, I sure hope the Wild are no longer in the Northwest in 2-3 years. It's been bad enough putting up with road games and an uninteresting division (from a Minnesotan perspective) since this team's inception. Rather not see it continue...
That's a good point ... unfortunately ... because whenever the inevitable re-alignment happens, Minny will probably end up in the same division as the Hawks which means my favorite team will have to deal with the coming Wild juggernaut. Although it will be cool to get the Minny-Chicago rivalry going again - hopefully like it used to be before the North Stars moved to Dallas (I still hate Dino Ciccarelli and Basil McRae).

I'd say the opinion of which team has the brighter future over the next 5 years is pretty close to 50-50 split. It will be interesting to see what happens and even though I don't root for either, I think it's pretty cool the great Minnesota and Edmonton fans will have some exciting and winning hockey in the years ahead.

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12-04-2012, 08:01 PM
  #97
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Minnesota, we have better scouts.. And a better GM.

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12-04-2012, 08:23 PM
  #98
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Minnesota, we have better scouts.. And a better GM.
Disagree partially. The Wild GM seemed to make a good move with Parise and Suter. But if you look further, he had a little luck, Parise already wanted to play in his home state and was friends with Suter. The GM offered them huge contracts to get them both. Right now it seems good, but look at the situation with other players with big contracts. They are impossible to get rid of. So while the the additions of Parise and Suter are good now, in the future they may be handcuffed.

Tambo gets a bad rap, but his contracts have been decent the past years.
-Hemsky got a some good money but only 2 years
-Hall and Ebs contracts will be a bargain in 2 years

Tambo has the team positioned to be financially solid in the upcoming years.

Also, in the rebuilding years he didnot get impatient and trade picks away. Most of his 1,2,3 rounders are coming along well (d prospects mainly) He also made good trades that made sense for a rebuilding team.

He traded Penner for Klefbom (a top d prospect), Tuebert (decent young d prospect who plays physical) and Zharkov (decent forward prospect)

He also added N Schultz for defensive support.
He went extremely hard for J.Schultz and was sucessful

Tambo may not have been very proactive in the rebuilding phase but he made good trades, didnt strap the team down with huge contracts, and keep and developed picks and prospects.

Not a top tier GM, but not a bad one either

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12-04-2012, 08:27 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Disagree partially. The Wild GM seemed to make a good move with Parise and Suter. But if you look further, he had a little luck, Parise already wanted to play in his home state and was friends with Suter. The GM offered them huge contracts to get them both. Right now it seems good, but look at the situation with other players with big contracts. They are impossible to get rid of. So while the the additions of Parise and Suter are good now, in the future they may be handcuffed.

Tambo gets a bad rap, but his contracts have been decent the past years.
-Hemsky got a some good money but only 2 years
-Hall and Ebs contracts will be a bargain in 2 years

Tambo has the team positioned to be financially solid in the upcoming years.

Also, in the rebuilding years he didnot get impatient and trade picks away. Most of his 1,2,3 rounders are coming along well (d prospects mainly) He also made good trades that made sense for a rebuilding team.

He traded Penner for Klefbom (a top d prospect), Tuebert (decent young d prospect who plays physical) and Zharkov (decent forward prospect)

He also added N Schultz for defensive support.
He went extremely hard for J.Schultz and was sucessful

Tambo may not have been very proactive in the rebuilding phase but he made good trades, didnt strap the team down with huge contracts, and keep and developed picks and prospects.

Not a top tier GM, but not a bad one either
See I'm not basing it on 2 signings... If you guys didn't have Gretzky, Schultz would of been ours...

Chuck has made some great moves, and has hired the right people. There was nothing here when he arrived.

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12-04-2012, 08:32 PM
  #100
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