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Old
12-03-2012, 08:31 PM
  #551
OneSharpMarble
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
That's what gonna happen if they cancel the rest of the season.

Players will loose 100-150 good well paid jobs in the process.
And gain them back as soon as those franchises are placed in strong markets, which could be almost instant.

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12-03-2012, 09:46 PM
  #552
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Players and owners are meeting in New York on Tuesday at 2pm.

Mathieu Darche, Sidney Crosby, and Jonathan Toews (aka the big 3) will be among the players present at the negotiations.

The governors represented are:

Ron Burkle (Penguins), Mark Chipman (Jets), Murray Edwards (Flames), Jeremy Jacobs (Bruins), Larry Tanenbaum (Leafs) and Jeff Vinik (TB).

All information per Renaud Lavoie's Twitter Feed, though I added one tidbit of editorializing where I gave a compliment to Crosby and Toews.

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Old
12-03-2012, 10:20 PM
  #553
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hockey soon? cant believe this isnt posted here yet

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/12/0...g-nhl-lockout/

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Old
12-03-2012, 10:23 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by charlie View Post
I dont want anyone to get too excited and I cant mention any names but we have an ex NHLer in the local area who was in New York recently. He said we should see a deal by Dec. 15th.
I am just putting this out there and this is just word through the grapevine.
Remember I dont want to say anyones name because I myself dont think there will be a season this year.
I could take that post, replace a few words and make it sound like some porn site spam, but I'd get in big trouble for doing it

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Old
12-04-2012, 02:00 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by cap10bfl View Post
hockey soon? cant believe this isnt posted here yet

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/12/0...g-nhl-lockout/
You are setting yourself up for a huge disappointment buddy.

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Old
12-04-2012, 02:26 AM
  #556
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I want to believe

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12-04-2012, 04:43 AM
  #557
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What the f is Darche doing there?

And it's bull that the Pens, Lightning and and Jets have representatives at that meeting when they were all failing franchises not more than a decade ago.

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Old
12-04-2012, 05:04 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
All these arguments are so tired. Both sides are the same! So, support the owners.
why pick a side then...

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Old
12-04-2012, 05:20 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What the f is Darche doing there?

And it's bull that the Pens, Lightning and and Jets have representatives at that meeting when they were all failing franchises not more than a decade ago.
Yeah, no point in making common ground with three moderate owners.

Darche is there because of his background (degree in business and marketing in McGill), because he's been one of the union leaders for a long time, and he's from a plugger/grinder background so he's going to be able to voice their concerns. He's pretty brave in doing this, it's almost certain he'll be blackballed for negotiating for the players.

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Old
12-04-2012, 08:33 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, they do not profit from a raise of value in the team. They also do not get affected one penny by the loss of value. It goes both ways. The league was flourishing so it's easier to look at them not touching profit, but if it wasn't, they would still get every single penny promised.

Owners don't turn in profit, they lose money. Owners don't turn in profit, players still get paid the same. No risk.

And you're wrong. If they create team value and participate in the growth of revenues, the salary goes up, which means compensation goes up, which means players get rewarded. So, indirectly, they do get a share of the profit.
Likewise for if the league revenues decrease, the new salaries may slightly drop if ever there was a drop in the cap, however everybody already signed to a deal would still get the same amount as their contracts are guaranteed. So again, players risk nothing.
In order for it to be a risk, there must be the potential of loss, players do not lose a dime.

DA's point wasn't even that. He said the players take a financial risk because they are risking career ending injuries every time they play. He fails to see a difference between both.

Also, the idea that the owner is just fine even if he sells at a loss is simply wrong. We have no idea of the debt he owes. It's very possible that his investment turned in the negative. What usually saves them is their other business ventures and the huge assets they hold.

I'm not siding with anybody. I've said this about a million times already. I said at this point, it's all about cutting your losses short. If the players lose the season, they lose more cash than they would had they accepted a 12% rollback. At the same time, the league is losing a lot of credibility and sponsors. Potential TV deals might be gone as well. Who wants to invest in a league that could lockout every half decade?
Both sides are losers, both sides have handled it poorly, and both are dumb for letting it go as far as it has and still is.
Fair enough Kriss. Good post.

But you yourself said above that if owners lose on the sale of the team (which has not happened much the last ten years), they are protected by their other profitable investments and businesses.

I still see no reason to support the owners for that very reason.

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Old
12-04-2012, 08:54 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For those who followed the last lockout in detail, were there people saying "yeah we're definitely getting a partial season" ??

Based on my well-known arguments in the surgical tanking thread, you can all guess that I am a firm supporter of a 48 game season, as the Habs need another top-5 pick.
If Habs don't play this year, and end up with a 21st overall because the NHL has another idiotic and unfair post lockout ,"anyone can win!", draft, it will cost us any chance we have at a cup in the next 5 years. We are one more Gally away from contending in two to three years. And don't bet on another miracle top five Carey Price pick either. Very very unlikely.

And poor draft positions with UFA and trades will not get us there, ever. We all know this by now.

I believe this. This lockout is a disaster for us if they lose the season. Habs desperately need another top 5 pick in 2013, and after years of finishing 8th on average, working like hell to make the playoffs with integrity, they deserve it.

No one, no one here has ever mentioned how odd it is that the oldest NHL club can work so hard for so long to become cup competitive, and yet fail so badly. Massive amounts of money, history, knowledge, huge effort, and not even close. Houle? Yes, partly. Gainey? Not really. Why has this happened?

I suggest you look at the NHL draft system, and especially the draft after the last lockout, and, if this season is lost, I suggest you look at the draft in 2013. It will be a ****ing disaster for us.

That is why all of us, and all Habs fans, should hate and **** on this lockout. Because it very well may cost the Habs a cup.


Last edited by bsl: 12-04-2012 at 09:03 AM.
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Old
12-04-2012, 08:56 AM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
If Habs don't play this year, and end up with a 21st overall because the NHL has a stupid post lockout ,"anyone can win!", draft, it will cost us any chance we have at a cup in the next 5 years. We are one more Gally away from contending in two to three years.

UFA and trades will not get us there, ever.

I believe this. This lockout is a disaster for us if they lose the season. Habs desperately need another top 5 pick in 2013, and after years of finishing 8th on average, working like hell to make the playoffs with integrity, they deserve it.

No one, no one here has ever mentioned how odd it is that the oldest NHL club can work so hard for so long to become cup competitive, and yet fail so badly. Massive amounts of money, history, knowledge, huge effort, and not even close. Houle? Yes, partly. Gainey? Not really. Why has this happened?

I suggest you look at the NHL draft system, and especially the draft after the last lockout, and, if this season is lost, I suggest you look at the draft in 2013. It will be a ****ing disaster for us.
And the Leafs would probably win the lottery since they can count on 3 balls

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:14 AM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH View Post
These posts on this forum are starting to sound like the NHL negotiations. There are long rambling rants by advocates for both sides about how their position is superior and the other side is either greedy, overpaid or both.

By now, no one has to read the post to know what it is going to say, you just have to look at the name of the poster. While we grumble about how Bettman won't give in or how Fehr won't give in, these two are probably more flexible in their positions than many of the posters seem to be. It has just been one side or the other taking their turn on the soap box.

I'll be happy when their something to talk about besides the negotiations.
Thanks for your incisive and respectful summary of hundreds of thoughtful and interesting posts on both sides of this question. Sorry you hate the thread and us.

In my case, I have never said the owners were greedy. It's a stupid word, signifying nothing except anger. All I have said, really, is that if you miss hockey, look to the owners, not the players.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:17 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
All these arguments are so tired. Both sides are the same! So, support the owners.
Thought, and debate, are painful. So is design, writing, planning, and any activity that helps us advance just a little bit. You have no endurance.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:19 AM
  #565
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I'll pass this along, on the radio in philly yesterday with Al Morganti (flyers beat guy), someone called in and said that a friend of his works for Tampa and was told to get ready to go back to work soon (I think he said he was a trainer). Said something about a shorten season starting sometime next month for what it's worth. I wouldn't put any stock into it but thought it was interesting.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:22 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What the f is Darche doing there?

And it's bull that the Pens, Lightning and and Jets have representatives at that meeting when they were all failing franchises not more than a decade ago.
I think he's a pretty smart guy that represents the players at the bottom half of the league.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:25 AM
  #567
bsl
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
What the f is Darche doing there?

And it's bull that the Pens, Lightning and and Jets have representatives at that meeting when they were all failing franchises not more than a decade ago.
Bold above: Because every player in the NHL realizes he might be the best educated, and smartest guy they can have at the table? Just guessin there dude.

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12-04-2012, 09:25 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I'll pass this along, on the radio in philly yesterday with Al Morganti (flyers beat guy), someone called in and said that a friend of his works for Tampa and was told to get ready to go back to work soon (I think he said he was a trainer). Said something about a shorten season starting sometime next month for what it's worth. I wouldn't put any stock into it but thought it was interesting.
Sounds like wishful thinking... But ****ing **** I ****ing miss hockey. Can't wait for the WJC.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:49 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
why pick a side then...
Sorry, that was a charicature of some of the recent arguments in this thread.

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:52 AM
  #570
NotProkofievian
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Thought, and debate, are painful. So is design, writing, planning, and any activity that helps us advance just a little bit. You have no endurance.
You don't have either the capacity, or the context to recognize sarcasm when you see it.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:23 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Bold above: Because every player in the NHL realizes he might be the best educated, and smartest guy they can have at the table? Just guessin there dude.
He's got no financial interest at stake because he'll never play in the NHL again.

McGill has relative lax entrance requirements for local Quebec students so unless Darche studied some hardcore sciences it doesn't make him smarter than everyone else. Am I the only one who cruised through CEGEP just to get into McGill electrical engineering in the first round?

I am willing to bet Westgarth probably has a better business background with his economics degree at Princeton.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:28 AM
  #572
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Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
Just talked with a well respected NHL GM. He said the majority of owners want a deal, Bettman blew it with the initial 43/57 offer, (1)

Bettman, Jacobs,Batterman have no respect for players (or GM's), this whole lockout is one great wasted opportunity to advance the game. (2)

One of the biggest complaints from this NHL GM. Most owners don't understand nuances of CBA, GM's mostly seen by Bettman as the enemy.

This GM used Lamoriello as example. Look what NHL did to Lou and NJ after Kovalchuk signing. Arbitration, huge fine, loss of draft picks.(1)

Last CBA negotiation in 04-05, Lamoriello was constantly involved in negotiations. Where is he now? (2)

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:39 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
Just talked with a well respected NHL GM. He said the majority of owners want a deal, Bettman blew it with the initial 43/57 offer, (1)

Bettman, Jacobs,Batterman have no respect for players (or GM's), this whole lockout is one great wasted opportunity to advance the game. (2)

One of the biggest complaints from this NHL GM. Most owners don't understand nuances of CBA, GM's mostly seen by Bettman as the enemy.

This GM used Lamoriello as example. Look what NHL did to Lou and NJ after Kovalchuk signing. Arbitration, huge fine, loss of draft picks.(1)

Last CBA negotiation in 04-05, Lamoriello was constantly involved in negotiations. Where is he now? (2)
That Fehr mouthpiece is a complete joke and never made any sense on Twitter. You don't see Prisson, Meehan and Sauvé whine incessantly to the media.

Posting anything Walsh says is a waste of bandwith.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:47 AM
  #574
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Alan Walsh is the biggest one-sided ****-disturber in the nhl. What he does goes even beyond the lockout. The man has one interest in mind...himself. Everyone does to a certain extent, but this guy doesn't even attempt to be discrete about it.

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Old
12-04-2012, 12:02 PM
  #575
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Alan Walsh is the biggest one-sided ****-disturber in the nhl. What he does goes even beyond the lockout. The man has one interest in mind...himself. Everyone does to a certain extent, but this guy doesn't even attempt to be discrete about it.
Whats so shocking about him being one-side? he's player agent LOL. why would he be discrete about it?

Also, whats so bad about what he is saying? basically validating the rumors that the lock out is a product of over aggressive 1930's style of negotiations, that FAILED, and the it makes absolute no logical sense for there to be a lock out over few CBA nuances and losing huge amount of money on both sides. Which one can easily conclude that the lock out is being run by few hardliners who have nothing to lose.

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