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Greater redwing: Kelly or Fedorov

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12-04-2012, 12:24 AM
  #26
buffalowing88
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I take the guy who became an absolute playmaker in the playoffs every day of the week. Fedorov had his issues and they prevented him from ever getting into the big 3...or 4...of Red Wings lore but come playoff time he was the best player on the best team in the league multiple times. Kelly was incredible and his story is compelling but at the end of the day we have two great players who could dominate at either end of the ice and I'm going with the one who could take over a game by himself. Fedorov here.

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12-04-2012, 12:36 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
I take the guy who became an absolute playmaker in the playoffs every day of the week. Fedorov had his issues and they prevented him from ever getting into the big 3...or 4...of Red Wings lore but come playoff time he was the best player on the best team in the league multiple times. Kelly was incredible and his story is compelling but at the end of the day we have two great players who could dominate at either end of the ice and I'm going with the one who could take over a game by himself. Fedorov here.
Red Kelly was a couple of votes away from winning a Hart trophy and has numerous high finishes in Hart voting. Why don't you think he could take over a game by himself?

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12-04-2012, 01:44 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I think Fedorovs great but that really seems like a cop out. He wanted the security of a 5 year deal instead of a 4 year deal making the same money? Even if he signed on for a 5th year at league minimum with the wings after his 4th year was done he would make more money than the deal he signed with the ducks. Not to mention he would have more freedoms to go after another big contract a year earlier and not have to deal with relocating to a new city.

That 5 year deal offers much less security
Why did the Wings offer him a 5 year deal and then remove it from the table, and then not offer five years again? Money clearly wasn't the issue. Why not offer the same $40m over 5 years, the way Anaheim did?

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12-04-2012, 03:05 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Why did the Wings offer him a 5 year deal and then remove it from the table, and then not offer five years again? Money clearly wasn't the issue. Why not offer the same $40m over 5 years, the way Anaheim did?
If you read the article, it looks like Fedorov simply wasn't happy in Detroit and was looking for an excuse to bolt.
I think Newfy nailed it on the years/$$$ issue.

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12-04-2012, 05:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Thats about the same as my list as well. I was just curious because on the wings board theyre doing a vote for best wings all time and Fedorov is ahead of Kelly and I'm getting called out for saying thats ridiculous. jkrx is one of the few with sense on the subject
I posted a vote both here and in the Penguins forum over best goalie in team history and while Barrasso won there too, only about two votes to one while he coasted away with the win here ten to one. I did it as an experiment and i think it tells a story in your question here as well. Another thing i have noticed is that the posters there are less nice than here, also ten to one. Your're not alone.

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12-04-2012, 07:39 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?
Where did you get this information? Fedorov won a Selke and you don't win one by punching a time card. As for Fedorov's offensive prowess, back in 1996 when the Wings won 62 games TSN did a comparison between this team and the 77 Habs. They matched up Fedorov with Lafleur and gave Sergei the edge. Bit of a stretch in my opinion, but this shows how highly regarded he was at the time. As for his time on defense, I understood it to be about his versatility, not about his lack of effort. He was a class act in my opinion.

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12-04-2012, 07:56 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Where did you get this information? Fedorov won a Selke and you don't win one by punching a time card. As for Fedorov's offensive prowess, back in 1996 when the Wings won 62 games TSN did a comparison between this team and the 77 Habs. They matched up Fedorov with Lafleur and gave Sergei the edge. Bit of a stretch in my opinion, but this shows how highly regarded he was at the time. As for his time on defense, I understood it to be about his versatility, not about his lack of effort. He was a class act in my opinion.
It was both. He was versatile but he also complained a lot, specially about ice-time. Bowman responded by giving him ice-time on defense.

Fedorov was amongst the best in the league for about three seasons. He quickly fell off as a regular season player. When it comes to him and Kelly, Kelly is ahead when it comes to importance, peak and overall skill to the Red wings franchise.

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12-04-2012, 08:35 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Red Kelly, but I think it's closer than most people in this thread imply.

Sergei Fedorov at his best was a gamebreaker and a playoff monster. Wings would not have won all those Cups without him.

I hope both of these guys get their number retired eventually.
I think it is closer as well, both guys played 13 seasons for the Red wings, Kelly has the higher peak but Federov was more consistent and has that most er 4 year playoff, heck his playoff production over 13 years bumps him over Kelly who faded in the late 50's.

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12-04-2012, 08:45 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
What do you guys thnik of that question?

Was Kelly in his time as a wing greater than Fedorov in is time with the wings?

I see Kelly as an all time great, won the first Norris and probably shouldve won 3 before that. A bunch of 1st team all stars, the number 1 dman on the greatest red wings teams ever ssembled and the versatility to play forward when his team needed him.

Fedorov had the versatility and a VERY high peak, but for the most part I see him as a consistent 65 point center that brought it in playoffs and coasted quite a bit through the season (part of the reason he got put on D).

What do you think?
PPG he was quite a bit higher than that and even his high 60 point seasons are in the clutch and grab era.

From 91-03 he is 13th in points and his two way game gives him enough value to vault him into the top 10 forwards, easily.

He also has the best plus/minus which in his case is amazing given his defensive responsibilities.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

In the playoffs he is 1st in points from 91-03

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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12-04-2012, 10:21 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Where did you get this information? Fedorov won a Selke and you don't win one by punching a time card. As for Fedorov's offensive prowess, back in 1996 when the Wings won 62 games TSN did a comparison between this team and the 77 Habs. They matched up Fedorov with Lafleur and gave Sergei the edge. Bit of a stretch in my opinion, but this shows how highly regarded he was at the time. As for his time on defense, I understood it to be about his versatility, not about his lack of effort. He was a class act in my opinion.
Why is it a stretch to put Fedorov 96 over Lafleur 77? It was'nt like Lafleur was Fedorov defensively. But let's call it a tie, and Lafleur of course had a pretty good peak overall.

One thing i'm thinking is this thing with Fedorovs four year playoff streak. I'm definetely not saying it was'nt great, but of course it had much to do with timing. Also, in the latter three years there, it was'nt like he was piling up points Gilmour-style. Of course there is a difference in era there, but still. Somebody also was talking about him being forst in playoff points from 91 to 03. Yeah, but 13th in PPG. Certainly something that also has to do with timing. Or more precisely, team.


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12-04-2012, 10:41 AM
  #36
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Red Kelly for me on this one.

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12-04-2012, 11:26 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Why is it a stretch to put Fedorov 96 over Lafleur 77? It was'nt like Lafleur was Fedorov defensively. But let's call it a tie, and Lafleur of course had a pretty good peak overall.

One thing i'm thinking is this thing with Fedorovs four year playoff streak. I'm definetely not saying it was'nt great, but of course it had much to do with timing. Also, in the latter three years there, it was'nt like he was piling up points Gilmour-style. Of course there is a difference in era there, but still. Somebody also was talking about him being forst in playoff points from 91 to 03. Yeah, but 13th in PPG. Certainly something that also has to do with timing. Or more precisely, team.
Why is it a stretch? Well, in 96 Fedorov had a Selke (and was about to win one later that year) a Hart, one 100 pt season and 0 SC's. You know Lafleur's resume.

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12-04-2012, 11:32 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Red Kelly for me on this one.
Yes. If you just want to look at their Wings careers, that's fine. If you look at them overall though, Kelly is a top 20 player all time and Fedorov does not make the top 70.

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12-04-2012, 11:37 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Why is it a stretch to put Fedorov 96 over Lafleur 77? It was'nt like Lafleur was Fedorov defensively. But let's call it a tie, and Lafleur of course had a pretty good peak overall.

One thing i'm thinking is this thing with Fedorovs four year playoff streak. I'm definetely not saying it was'nt great, but of course it had much to do with timing. Also, in the latter three years there, it was'nt like he was piling up points Gilmour-style. Of course there is a difference in era there, but still. Somebody also was talking about him being forst in playoff points from 91 to 03. Yeah, but 13th in PPG. Certainly something that also has to do with timing. Or more precisely, team.
Lafleur wasn't a juggernaut defensively and he wasn't used that way (why would Bowman use him that way when he had Gainey) but he was extremely responsible in that dept. I would have no problem saying that he was better in that department than Jagr or Crosby was/is.
He always had his man and back checked hard. He wasn't a floater at all. Believe it or not, he hated clear breakaways and avoided them like the plague. Said that they gave him too much time to think and he was at his best when he just played on instinct.
He's one of the few offensive superstars from the 70's and 80's that if pulled in 2012 wouldn't have much of a learning curve in today's defensively themed NHL.

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12-04-2012, 12:21 PM
  #40
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I think its a crime against both Kelly and the team's history that his number 4 isn't hanging alongside those of his teammates Lindsay, Howe and Sawchuk.

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12-04-2012, 12:28 PM
  #41
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I think its a crime against both Kelly and the team's history that his number 4 isn't hanging alongside those of his teammates Lindsay, Howe and Sawchuk.
Agreed, it's one of the few black marks against one of the classiest organizations in NHL history.

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12-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #42
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Please don't put federov over Lafleur because with that statement you know nothing about hockey.Many in Quebec though not the majority consider Lafleur as the greatest hab ever

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12-04-2012, 12:40 PM
  #43
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Please don't put federov over Lafleur because with that statement you know nothing about hockey.Many in Quebec though not the majority consider Lafleur as the greatest hab ever
I would be surprised if 1 in 50 had Lafleur over the Rocket to be honest.

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12-04-2012, 12:48 PM
  #44
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I would be surprised if 1 in 50 had Lafleur over the Rocket to be honest.
Agreed. I have pre-Orr hockey books written by casual hockey history students and the Rocket was considered by them to be the 2nd best player ever after Howe. I'm not agreeing with them.

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12-04-2012, 12:50 PM
  #45
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Funny man ckac sports had lafleur number 1 yvon pednault had lafleur number 1 regean tremblay had lafleur number1 and when fans voted 20 yrs ago lafleur received 38percent beliveau21 percent41 percent for richard and the other undecided.most of stats favour lafleur he's the greatest hab ever.maybe some anglophone does not agree but the facts are the facts.in quebec i can give info about over a dozen respected hockey people who say lafleur was the best

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12-04-2012, 01:02 PM
  #46
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Funny man ckac sports had lafleur number 1 yvon pednault had lafleur number 1 regean tremblay had lafleur number1 and when fans voted 20 yrs ago lafleur received 38percent beliveau21 percent41 percent for richard and the other undecided.most of stats favour lafleur he's the greatest hab ever.maybe some anglophone does not agree but the facts are the facts.in quebec i can give info about over a dozen respected hockey people who say lafleur was the best
Not respected by me then

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12-04-2012, 01:50 PM
  #47
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Gordie Howe said on a hockey documentary that Kelly was the straw that stirred the drink in Detroit and that it was a mistake to trade him as they never won anything after he has left. Not word by word, but along the lines. If that is even remotely true, than it has to be Kelly.

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12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
  #48
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Funny man ckac sports had lafleur number 1 yvon pednault had lafleur number 1 regean tremblay had lafleur number1 and when fans voted 20 yrs ago lafleur received 38percent beliveau21 percent41 percent for richard and the other undecided.most of stats favour lafleur he's the greatest hab ever.maybe some anglophone does not agree but the facts are the facts.in quebec i can give info about over a dozen respected hockey people who say lafleur was the best
Didn't the ovation at the closing of the Forum say it all?

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12-04-2012, 02:46 PM
  #49
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They matched up Fedorov with Lafleur and gave Sergei the edge. Bit of a stretch in my opinion, but this shows how highly regarded he was at the time.
I would disagree with that.

1) The Canadiens briefly tried Lafleur out at center and it was a massive failure. He was only successful on the RW, while Fedorov was successful wherever he played.

2) Lafleur's numbers have a huge jump while he is playing on a line with Steve Shutt. Shutt was a unanimous first-team all-star in 1977. Fedorov never had a regular linemate of even close to that kind of quality; the closest he had was probably Slava Kozlov. There's a correlation between Fedorov's numbers and Coffey's time in Detroit, but the same can be said of Gretzky in Edmonton or Lemieux in Pittsburgh.

3) Lafleur played his prime with three defensemen considered to be among the all-time best in their primes; Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, and Serge Savard. Fedorov had a post-prime Paul Coffey and a pre-prime Nicklas Lidstrom. Coffey was later replaced by an end-of-career Larry Murphy.

4) While Lafleur won the 1978 Hart trophy, Bryan Trottier scored only a handful fewer points while playing a much more physical game with far better defense, and can easily be argued as the better player that season. Fedorov played elite defense the moment he entered the league (he received the most first-place votes for the Selke in his second season, and finished second to Guy Carbonneau), and had a 100-point PPG four times, twice clearing the mark.

5) Lafleur and Shutt were centered by Jacques Lemaire, one of the league's top defensive forwards. Lafleur and Shutt themselves played limited defense, especially compared to their Montreal teammates. Fedorov was an elite defensive player from his first day in the league and it was the primary focus of his game throughout his career, despite his wide array of offensive tools.

Lafleur was a great RW, and a great player. But the argument that Fedorov is better is certainly plausible at minimum.

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12-04-2012, 02:49 PM
  #50
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Didn't the ovation at the closing of the Forum say it all?
IMO, it's Beliveau, Harvey, Richard, and then Lafleur.

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