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Jonathan Bernier and Joe Pavelski to Toronto

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Old
12-04-2012, 10:45 AM
  #51
Sypher04
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
They have very, very similar stats in both the AHL and junior as well... it has nothing to do with him not getting regular starts with LA. If you flipped the goalies nobody would care about Reimer and Bernier would be labelled a bust
Having similar stats is not always a reliable way of assessing the quality of a goalie, because at some point circumstance has to be a consideration. There are qualities in Bernier that set him apart as a junior goalie, and those haven't changed.

And, best I can tell, no one is calling Reimer a bust. As you know from our discussions elsewhere, I believe Reimer has potential. I don't agree with the way he's been handled by the Leafs however, and I don't believe his ceiling or likelyhood of reaching it to be that of Bernier either.

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12-04-2012, 10:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
Having similar stats is not always a reliable way of assessing the quality of a goalie, because at some point circumstance has to be a consideration. There are qualities in Bernier that set him apart as a junior goalie, and those haven't changed.

And, best I can tell, no one is calling Reimer a bust. As you know from our discussions elsewhere, I believe Reimer has potential. I don't agree with the way he's been handled by the Leafs however, and I don't believe his ceiling or likelyhood of reaching it to be that of Bernier either.
Reimer's not being called a bust because he was a mid round pick that nobody expected to be anything. He's just seen as a bad starter. Bernier has this illusion about him that he's better than he actually is because he was drafted in the 1st round.

You can argue that in the NHL spot starts has hindered him, you can also argue Reimer has been putting up better numbers (albeit slightly) on a far worse team than Bernier. You can make the argument you'd like one over the other for whatever reasons but to suggest a 1st rounder from a team that just picked 5th overall is the difference is absurd.

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12-04-2012, 10:59 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Reimer's not being called a bust because he was a mid round pick that nobody expected to be anything. He's just seen as a bad starter. Bernier has this illusion about him that he's better than he actually is because he was drafted in the 1st round.

You can argue that in the NHL spot starts has hindered him, you can also argue Reimer has been putting up better numbers (albeit slightly) on a far worse team than Bernier. You can make the argument you'd like one over the other for whatever reasons but to suggest a 1st rounder from a team that just picked 5th overall is the difference is absurd.
Well, in fairness, I said the bolded part myself.

Reimer hasn't proven to be anything more than a backup quality NHLer thus far (Bernier the same). The only reason he gets starter time is because our goaltending situation has been so poorly managed.

Here's my point. You say they had comparable junior careers statistically. They did, but there is a reason Bernier was more highly regarded than Reimer, and it's not just because of his stint with WJCs (certainly didn't hurt). Since that time, both of them have performed well. Bernier with a lot more AHL experience, and Reimer with a bit more NHL. To this point, if their stats are similar, are we just to assume that everything that made Bernier a top pick beyond those comparable stats disappeared?

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12-04-2012, 11:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
Well, in fairness, I said the bolded part myself.

Reimer hasn't proven to be anything more than a backup quality NHLer thus far (Bernier the same). The only reason he gets starter time is because our goaltending situation has been so poorly managed.

Here's my point. You say they had comparable junior careers statistically. They did, but there is a reason Bernier was more highly regarded than Reimer, and it's not just because of his stint with WJCs (certainly didn't hurt). Since that time, both of them have performed well. Bernier with a lot more AHL experience, and Reimer with a bit more NHL. To this point, if their stats are similar, are we just to assume that everything that made Bernier a top pick beyond those comparable stats disappeared?
Well I don't see why anything either of them did in junior when they're now 24 should have any impact on how good they are seen as being now. TBH I don't know why they're draft spots were so far apart.... I don't remember the draft year well enough but Reimer's stats are actually better and he was on some brutal teams too.

I mean I'm not looking at Reimer and saying "he carried his junior team so he has more value now". I look at him and say he carried the Leafs 2 years ago in limited action and struggled last year after a concussion in limited action.

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12-04-2012, 11:54 AM
  #55
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Again, i have not yet been given a reason why Bernier is worth so much more than Reimer, so far its only been excuses as to why Bernier has been slightly worse. Again their values are the same no matter of anyones attempt to dispute it.

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12-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #56
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Reimer plus a 1st for Bernier; he is not worth that much, then Bernier sucks out and LA gets a lottery pick LOL

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12-04-2012, 12:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
To TO: Bernier
To LA: Reimer + 1st

Kings downgrade in goal but get a 1st back. Leafs get a starter with high upside.

To TO: Pavelski
To SJ: Lombardi + Kulemim + 2nd

Leafs get a borderline #1 centre (cause Connolly is never healthy) but still a big upgrade on Bozak, Connolly, JVR, Kadri. Sharks upgrade their bottom 6 and 3rd line depth with Kulemin and Lombardi can step into Pavelskis spot.
Downgrade the 2nd for a 3rd and then flip the picks between the two trades and I would say you are closer though I still doubt the Pavelski deal gets done.

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12-04-2012, 12:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lupul had 6 more points in like 15 less games last year. It was his first year healthy yet we have to add to him to get Pavelski. Lmao nope
I would say the fact that it was his first year healthy would be the reason the Leafs add. Pavelski has been consistent throughout his career.

I think Pavelski is a good fit beside Kessel because he's defensively responsible and can play at kessels pace. JVR is capable of replacing Lupuls production given the same opportunity and one of Lombardi, Connolly or Frattin can take over for Mac for the time being.

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12-04-2012, 12:13 PM
  #59
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As a Kings fan, I would take that Offer and run.

Reimer can be fixed by Ranford. He can undo all the damage Toronto's goalie coach did.

The 1st will be a good one, Toronto is a disaster of a team.

If and when the Kings trade Johnny B (it probably wont happen). The Kings are not going to get a first round pick for him.

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12-04-2012, 12:22 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
As a Kings fan, I would take that Offer and run.

Reimer can be fixed by Ranford. He can undo all the damage Toronto's goalie coach did.

The 1st will be a good one, Toronto is a disaster of a team.

If and when the Kings trade Johnny B (it probably wont happen). The Kings are not going to get a first round pick for him.
Francois Allaire is just yet another scapegoat for this team's lack of success. When you have your NHL coaches micromanaging the goaltenders and undermining the teachings of your goalie coach you aren't going to get results you want. Doesn't matter who you've got doing the job.

I'm not going to say Allaire wasn't without his faults, but if you don't trust the job he is doing anymore, fire him. Anything less is unprofessional, and simply playing mindgames with the goalies.

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12-04-2012, 12:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I never once said u had to agree. The kings are happy with him as backup. As i stated in the other bernier thread Bernier is a cheap young backup right now and is stuck in the kings organization for proberly 3 years before we have to decide on him with the new rfa coming.
Do the Kings NEED to do something with Bernier now? No. Are they going to move him sooner rather than later? Most likely. An offer that wasn't acceptable in the past might become more acceptable in the future and that has nothing to do with Bernier's play. You just don't want to keep unhappy players around.

If Bernier thinks he's good enough to be a starter in the NHL, he's not going to be happy behind Quick, especially not for what could be 3 more years. I'm not saying Bernier would intentionally cause problems but I think he's already made it known that he'd rather be elsewhere and that was before Quick's extension. Most teams will trade an unhappy player before it effects the rest of the team. I'm not expecting the Kings to get a ton back for Bernier when they decide to move him unless a team gets crazy desperate.

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12-04-2012, 12:38 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
Francois Allaire is just yet another scapegoat for this team's lack of success. When you have your NHL coaches micromanaging the goaltenders and undermining the teachings of your goalie coach you aren't going to get results you want. Doesn't matter who you've got doing the job.

I'm not going to say Allaire wasn't without his faults, but if you don't trust the job he is doing anymore, fire him. Anything less is unprofessional, and simply playing mindgames with the goalies.
Then its good that neither coach is employed now.

I wonder how Hank works out in NYR with his brother?

I STILL don't see how our 1st would be needed in this lateral trade?
I also don't think Bernier will even be coming, in any circumstance.

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12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Then its good that neither coach is employed now.

I wonder how Hank works out in NYR with his brother?

I STILL don't see how our 1st would be needed in this lateral trade?
I also don't think Bernier will even be coming, in any circumstance.
My only concern there being that Burke still backed Allaire as of the time that Ron Wilson was fired, calling him "the best goalie coach in the world", and then at the end of the season Allaire walks away from the team. The question has to be asked: If his problem was with Wilson and Co, yet he still left, did the issues persist under the new Carlyle regime?

I think pretty much everyone here has agreed the 1st is overpayment.

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12-04-2012, 02:38 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Kings say no to this. Need at least a prospect with the frist.
Toronto's first round pick makes this trade so lopsided in the kings favor because of the depth in this years draft and the amazing talent, plus the fact is almost definitely top 10 if not top 5

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12-04-2012, 03:28 PM
  #65
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Bernier needs a chance to start in the NHL. Reiner already has had a chance to start. Every stop Bernier has started at, he's been dominant. Every stop Reimer has started at, he's been ok to good.

The idea is that you know you have something ok to not bad in Reimer, NHL-wise, but in Bernier you will have something not bad to something special.

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12-04-2012, 03:45 PM
  #66
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Toronto's first round pick makes this trade so lopsided in the kings favor because of the depth in this years draft and the amazing talent, plus the fact is almost definitely top 10 if not top 5
I agree. The pick is good since it's a deep draft and Reimer is exactly the right age and player-type we need for this team...the only question is I believe Reimer is overpaid at 2.2 mil while Bernier makes a mil. On a team like the Kings and post the new collective bargaining agreement, that 1 mil is a lot of money to us.

So the Kings would be taking extra salary and shippin the higher upside Bernier for that top 15 first rounder in a deep draft.

But, I take the deal...it's almost tailor-made for LA for our point of view.

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12-04-2012, 03:48 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Bernier needs a chance to start in the NHL. Reiner already has had a chance to start. Every stop Bernier has started at, he's been dominant. Every stop Reimer has started at, he's been ok to good.

The idea is that you know you have something ok to not bad in Reimer, NHL-wise, but in Bernier you will have something not bad to something special.
Why? Reimer had better numbers in junior and they have nearly identical numbers in the ahl and NHL.

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12-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #68
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berniers upside is much larger than Reimer. reimer isnt even gaurenteed to be a legit starter, i see him more of a tweener or a good backup. Like a Raycroft type.
This

Leafs fans wont like it tho

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12-04-2012, 03:55 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
This

Leafs fans wont like it tho
It's not about not liking it... It's about it making no sense. How is one a tweener and the other a starter when they have had basically identical stats all the way since junior?

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12-04-2012, 04:08 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It's not about not liking it... It's about it making no sense. How is one a tweener and the other a starter when they have had basically identical stats all the way since junior?
pedigree for one...

When did Riemer win the "Aldege Bastien Memorial Award" ?


.... Regardless of our opinions

read, watch and comprehend what all the experts have said since Bernier was drafted. and are still saying...

it's not close and wont be in the end

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12-04-2012, 04:12 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
pedigree for one...

When did Riemer win the "Aldege Bastien Memorial Award" ?


.... Regardless of our opinions

read, watch and comprehend what all the experts have said since Bernier was drafted. and are still saying...

it's not close and wont be in the end
Exactly. All the love in here for Bernier is due to draft pedigree. How many people in here have seen Bernier play more than a game recently? How many have watched him play and thought, 'wow, this guy has star potential'? Because I'd be willing to bet that's none of you.

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12-04-2012, 04:43 PM
  #72
The Podium
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Bernier needs a chance to start in the NHL. Reiner already has had a chance to start. Every stop Bernier has started at, he's been dominant. Every stop Reimer has started at, he's been ok to good.

The idea is that you know you have something ok to not bad in Reimer, NHL-wise, but in Bernier you will have something not bad to something special.
Reimer had better junior stats, and slightly worse AHL#'s and better NHL #'s, where the hell has Reimer been ok to good while Bernier dominant?

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Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
pedigree for one...

When did Riemer win the "Aldege Bastien Memorial Award" ?


.... Regardless of our opinions

read, watch and comprehend what all the experts have said since Bernier was drafted. and are still saying...

it's not close and wont be in the end
So because he's a 1st round disappointment he is so much better now.... Im sure Lundqvist and Rinne are terrible because of when they were drafted!

Goalies in the 1st round is always a bad idea, they develop weird, any goalie in any round can end up being the best in the long run and from day one its a crap shoot doesnt matter which round. The majority of the current star goalies were drafted 4th round and later, the majority of 1st round drafted goalies are decent starters or busts. Draft pedigree when it comes to goalies means didily squat unless your Price.

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12-04-2012, 04:57 PM
  #73
TieClark
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Originally Posted by LaLaLand View Post
pedigree for one...

When did Riemer win the "Aldege Bastien Memorial Award" ?


.... Regardless of our opinions

read, watch and comprehend what all the experts have said since Bernier was drafted. and are still saying...

it's not close and wont be in the end
So essentially you're going off of an award he won in junior and his draft position to judge 2 24 year old goalies...

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12-04-2012, 05:31 PM
  #74
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Again, not saying Reimer is better, but no one has yet to give me a definitive reason why Bernier is better? They are roughly 5 months apart in age while Reimer is more experienced with the best season to date between the both of them. To be honest i would not even trade Reimer straight up for Bernier because it is a lateral move at best, the fact that people believe a 1st must be added when Bernier has not only not lived up to his draft pedigree, but he hasnt even proved to be better than Reimer, is ridiculous. Even if LA wasnt the best team in the world a few years ago, that doesnt negate the fact that Toronto has been worse the past 2 seasons.
This.

Maybe you trade for Bernier because you don't believe in a 26 year old Ben Scrivens getting better... but you certainly don't trade a guy who's proven the ability to be a successful #1 in this league.

If the Leafs were to trade for Bernier, Reimer's still the go-to guy, he's just got a substantially better challenger for his spot.

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12-04-2012, 05:31 PM
  #75
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I hope the Oilers hire you . You can make guarantees on young developing players . Can you tell my Oilers managers which players are guaranteed not to get injured . With our luck we could use a guarantee ...oh how long is the guarantee good for . I am looking for a 5 year 200 g 200 a 82 games a season . Can you do it ?
I'm not the one making guarantees...

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