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Luongo: the continuing saga ...

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Old
12-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #126
ACC1224
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Why....you think Jeff Finger or Aucoin or Zigomanis should all be up? It's part of hockey. Unless the new CBA SEVERELY penalizes TO for having his contract....i could care less. Luongo would give us bonified starting goaltending for 5 years.
I was looking at it from the Team point of view not my own as what I want is meaningless. I also would be very happy to have Luongo in net for the next few years.

No matter how much money a Team has it isn't going to be happy to pay out Millions to be rid of a guy. Also, from a development standpoint he will take up a spot of a young goalie to develop.

The Leafs should be rewarded for this burden.

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12-04-2012, 12:36 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I was looking at it from the Team point of view not my own as what I want is meaningless. I also would be very happy to have Luongo in net for the next few years.

No matter how much money a Team has it isn't going to be happy to pay out Millions to be rid of a guy. Also, from a development standpoint he will take up a spot of a young goalie to develop.

The Leafs should be rewarded for this burden.
Then stick with your young goalies and see where that gets you. The Leafs are not going to be rewarded for taking on Luongo outside of having an elite top 5 goalie suit up most nights. Other than that you'll be expected to pay a good price in order to acquire him.

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12-04-2012, 12:40 PM
  #128
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1.) You can make an assumption that he will retire and he won't be looking to get paid for those last 4 years, but it's not necessarily reality. We really have no idea as to what Roberto's intentions are for the end of his contract; we didn't sign it. In either case, I'd say the earliest he'd walk away from that contract is 40. The main issue is that we really have no idea what Luongo's performance will be like at 37/38/39 years old, yet we'll be stuck with his full cap hit. Some goalies do not age well.

2.) Agreed, this is a big wildcard IMO. Maybe more of a stumbling block than point 1)

3.) So, in short, trading him isn't very simple. As I thought. If he turns 37/38 and his play is noticeably declining, and he has no intention of retiring until he he turns 40, he'd be basically immoveable.
One of the best goalies in Toronto history was 37 when they signed him. That was Eddie Belfour. So don't give the age crap about Lu. Goalies can play into their forties, and still preform well. They are t like forwards or Defenseman. They have a certain longevity to their careers. Look at Marty, he's forty and he just resigned because he can still do it is he as good as he was, probably not...but he's still a damn good goalie.

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12-04-2012, 12:44 PM
  #129
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One of the best goalies in Toronto history was 37 when they signed him. That was Eddie Belfour. So don't give the age crap about Lu. Goalies can play into their forties, and still preform well. They are t like forwards or Defenseman. They have a certain longevity to their careers. Look at Marty, he's forty and he just resigned because he can still do it is he as good as he was, probably not...but he's still a damn good goalie.
I don't doubt that Lou is going to be effective for a while but nobody can predict when he is going to fall off. That fear is real and legit, but not worth worrying about if you are Burke IMO. If he does not improve his goaltending I don't think he'll have a job in 12 months.

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12-04-2012, 12:45 PM
  #130
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I think Roberto Luongo signed on a shorter term contract, and with less control over his destination could go for a very high price. But, I think the combination of limited trade partners and his contract certainly do significantly hurt what the Canucks will get. Most reports seem to suggest that the two locations are really Florida and Toronto. Toronto's need is blatantly obvious to anyone who watches hockey while Florida is solid enough in goal that making the move isn't by any means a necessity. Between Clemmensen and Theodore their net seems pretty secure for the moment, and blocking Markstrom for the next 6+ years probably isn't their wisest move.

This all said, there are likely one or two teams that are potential suitors that we don't hear about. I would be surprised if the Leafs we basically the lone team at any point, but we definitely know the list cannot be very long.

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12-04-2012, 12:46 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I was looking at it from the Team point of view not my own as what I want is meaningless. I also would be very happy to have Luongo in net for the next few years.

No matter how much money a Team has it isn't going to be happy to pay out Millions to be rid of a guy. Also, from a development standpoint he will take up a spot of a young goalie to develop.

The Leafs should be rewarded for this burden.
Your reward is a strong probability of playoffs for at least five consecutive years, perhaps longer. What you are ask is we compensate you when the trade no longer benefits. By that logic if Kadri does not pan out in five years, Toronto should fork over their first. Obviously, this is not how trades work. There is inherent risk, which both sides must accept.

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12-04-2012, 12:46 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
One of the best goalies in Toronto history was 37 when they signed him. That was Eddie Belfour. So don't give the age crap about Lu. Goalies can play into their forties, and still preform well. They are t like forwards or Defenseman. They have a certain longevity to their careers. Look at Marty, he's forty and he just resigned because he can still do it is he as good as he was, probably not...but he's still a damn good goalie.
Yes and by that point Belfour was a shell of his former self. He also cost squat to acquire and wasn't signed for 10 years.

Do you think they would have signed him until he was 44 and given up a ton for him?

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12-04-2012, 12:46 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
I was looking at it from the Team point of view not my own as what I want is meaningless. I also would be very happy to have Luongo in net for the next few years.

No matter how much money a Team has it isn't going to be happy to pay out Millions to be rid of a guy. Also, from a development standpoint he will take up a spot of a young goalie to develop.

The Leafs should be rewarded for this burden.
If Lou had three years left on his deal what do you think Toronto would pay for him? I think every proposal here has already been substantially 'discounted' for his age. You're not bringing a new argument to the table.

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12-04-2012, 12:49 PM
  #134
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If Lou had three years left on his deal what do you think Toronto would pay for him? I think every proposal here has already been substantially 'discounted' for his age. You're not bringing a new argument to the table.
If he only had 3 years, the asking price would be understandably high.

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12-04-2012, 12:51 PM
  #135
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I think Roberto Luongo signed on a shorter term contract, and with less control over his destination could go for a very high price. But, I think the combination of limited trade partners and his contract certainly do significantly hurt what the Canucks will get. Most reports seem to suggest that the two locations are really Florida and Toronto. Toronto's need is blatantly obvious to anyone who watches hockey while Florida is solid enough in goal that making the move isn't by any means a necessity. Between Clemmensen and Theodore their net seems pretty secure for the moment, and blocking Markstrom for the next 6+ years probably isn't their wisest move.

This all said, there are likely one or two teams that are potential suitors that we don't hear about. I would be surprised if the Leafs we basically the lone team at any point, but we definitely know the list cannot be very long.
Florida is in a much better bargaining position that Toronto for sure. Their pressure point is about survivability of the franchise though and not winning is not helping with that. Also blocking Backstrom is only valid were he already where Schneider is. He's a long way from that.

One thing Vancouver has shown with Lou is that you can bring along the goalie of the future quite nicely with Lou as a starter and benefit from elite goaltending for 82 games a year. A HUGE advantage that has been by far the biggest single factor in B2B PT's.

Also, Florida could always do what vancouver should have done and trade the more valuable asset (Schneider) for a shed-load of assets.

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12-04-2012, 12:51 PM
  #136
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I don't doubt that Lou is going to be effective for a while but nobody can predict when he is going to fall off. That fear is real and legit, but not worth worrying about if you are Burke IMO. If he does not improve his goaltending I don't think he'll have a job in 12 months.
Well, this is true. Burke doesn't have the luxury of patience that this point. If he'd chosen a more traditional rebuild style he would, but he's made his bed, and now he must lay in it. He will make the moves he needs to save his job, which given the ones he made when there was no pressure both delights and scares the crap out of me at the same time.

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12-04-2012, 12:51 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
One of the best goalies in Toronto history was 37 when they signed him. That was Eddie Belfour. So don't give the age crap about Lu. Goalies can play into their forties, and still preform well. They are t like forwards or Defenseman. They have a certain longevity to their careers. Look at Marty, he's forty and he just resigned because he can still do it is he as good as he was, probably not...but he's still a damn good goalie.
Belfour was free, happily take Luongo for free.

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12-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #138
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Yes and by that point Belfour was a shell of his former self. He also cost squat to acquire and wasn't signed for 10 years.

Do you think they would have signed him until he was 44 and given up a ton for him?
44? Strawman?

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12-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #139
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Belfour was free, happily take Luongo for free.
Luongo is 33.

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12-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
I think Roberto Luongo signed on a shorter term contract, and with less control over his destination could go for a very high price. But, I think the combination of limited trade partners and his contract certainly do significantly hurt what the Canucks will get. Most reports seem to suggest that the two locations are really Florida and Toronto. Toronto's need is blatantly obvious to anyone who watches hockey while Florida is solid enough in goal that making the move isn't by any means a necessity. Between Clemmensen and Theodore their net seems pretty secure for the moment, and blocking Markstrom for the next 6+ years probably isn't their wisest move.

This all said, there are likely one or two teams that are potential suitors that we don't hear about. I would be surprised if the Leafs we basically the lone team at any point, but we definitely know the list cannot be very long.
Every team with suspect goaltending is likely to have inquired about Luongo or Schneider, including Edmonton and Chicago. Any GM worth his salt is always looking to improve his team regardless of the circumstances. That isn't to say they are by any means a front runner but I highly doubt Toronto is the only option. And even if they are, we are not going to toss Lu away for anything that does not have an impact on our roster.

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12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
  #141
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Well, this is true. Burke doesn't have the luxury of patience that this point. If he'd chosen a more traditional rebuild style he would, but he's made his bed, and now he must lay in it. He will make the moves he needs to save his job, which given the ones he made when there was no pressure both delights and scares the crap out of me at the same time.
I don't see why. He hasn't to this point.

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12-04-2012, 12:57 PM
  #142
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Well, this is true. Burke doesn't have the luxury of patience that this point. If he'd chosen a more traditional rebuild style he would, but he's made his bed, and now he must lay in it. He will make the moves he needs to save his job, which given the ones he made when there was no pressure both delights and scares the crap out of me at the same time.
Acquiring Lou is not scary at all for the Leafs with the possible exception of losing a 1st rounder. Provided there are not significant punitive damages for hiding contracts in the minors (legacy deals like Lou's that are already signed), there is nothing at all to fear.

He can't be traded until a new CBA is signed and we won't know the landscape until then with respect to new rules so it's pretty tough to say what kind of return he gets.

If the season is cancelled I'd say all bets are off as Vancouver really only has this season where they are considered contenders. With Lappiere, Raymond, Higgins and Edler all UFA and all due moderate to substantial increases in salary, and the advancing age of the Sedins and others, no season means a pretty big step back for Vancouver. I'm not sure Luongo is the one I would trade in that scenario as we'd likely need the better assets from Schneider to rebuild (as counter intuitive as that sounds).

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12-04-2012, 01:01 PM
  #143
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I don't see why. He hasn't to this point.
He's done OK he just has a blind spot with goalies, and maybe falls in love with his players/prospects to the point he can't make trades. The team is in a much better situation now than when he took over. The prospect pool is evidence of that. Everyone has panned the Kessel deal (quite fairly) but the rest of the things he's done have been just fine. The Phanuef deal was brilliant. Same with Gardiner.

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12-04-2012, 01:06 PM
  #144
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I was looking at it from the Team point of view not my own as what I want is meaningless. I also would be very happy to have Luongo in net for the next few years.

No matter how much money a Team has it isn't going to be happy to pay out Millions to be rid of a guy. Also, from a development standpoint he will take up a spot of a young goalie to develop.

The Leafs should be rewarded for this burden.
Question, do you honestly think Luongo was planning on playing out this deal when he signed it? Or Kovi? Or any other circumvented deal?

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12-04-2012, 01:10 PM
  #145
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Every team with suspect goaltending is likely to have inquired about Luongo or Schneider, including Edmonton and Chicago. Any GM worth his salt is always looking to improve his team regardless of the circumstances. That isn't to say they are by any means a front runner but I highly doubt Toronto is the only option. And even if they are, we are not going to toss Lu away for anything that does not have an impact on our roster.
Limited trade partners has less to do with people being interested IMO, and more to do with whether Roberto has interest in them. He holds all the cards.

But, I agree. Like I said, I don't believe by any mean that it's Toronto or bust.

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I don't see why. He hasn't to this point.
Burke really hasn't been on the hotseat until now.

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12-04-2012, 01:10 PM
  #146
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He's done OK he just has a blind spot with goalies, and maybe falls in love with his players/prospects to the point he can't make trades. The team is in a much better situation now than when he took over. The prospect pool is evidence of that. Everyone has panned the Kessel deal (quite fairly) but the rest of the things he's done have been just fine. The Phanuef deal was brilliant. Same with Gardiner.
No real argument here.

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12-04-2012, 01:12 PM
  #147
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If Bozak and Kadri are involved, no way a 1st is as well. Maybe a 2nd or a 3rd.

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12-04-2012, 01:14 PM
  #148
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Acquiring Lou is not scary at all for the Leafs with the possible exception of losing a 1st rounder. Provided there are not significant punitive damages for hiding contracts in the minors (legacy deals like Lou's that are already signed), there is nothing at all to fear.

He can't be traded until a new CBA is signed and we won't know the landscape until then with respect to new rules so it's pretty tough to say what kind of return he gets.

If the season is cancelled I'd say all bets are off as Vancouver really only has this season where they are considered contenders. With Lappiere, Raymond, Higgins and Edler all UFA and all due moderate to substantial increases in salary, and the advancing age of the Sedins and others, no season means a pretty big step back for Vancouver. I'm not sure Luongo is the one I would trade in that scenario as we'd likely need the better assets from Schneider to rebuild (as counter intuitive as that sounds).
That comment about scary was more general than related to a specific possible transaction.

Well, the counter point to that would be that trading Luongo may well give you the cap flexibility to be able to re-sign those pieces and remain a contender for a few more years. And, while I'm by no means an expert on the Canucks, I'd think if you can hold onto Edler the rest will work out. Lappiere, Raymond and Higgins are all very replaceable parts.

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12-04-2012, 01:39 PM
  #149
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Question, do you honestly think Luongo was planning on playing out this deal when he signed it? Or Kovi? Or any other circumvented deal?
It's hard to say, he wouldn't be the 1st player to want to hang onto a career.

It certainly not something to be relied on.

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12-04-2012, 01:41 PM
  #150
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It's hard to say, he wouldn't be the 1st player to want to hang onto a career.

It certainly not something to be relied on.
Name some players on lifetime contracts that overstayed their welcome?

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