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Who wants Jonathan Bernier?

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #51
MJMazzarone
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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
I dont know, tedenby and a prospect like Urbom? Is that too steep for a potential number one?
Steep? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd drive Teddy to airport.

Get Lou & Dean on the phone.

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12-04-2012, 01:36 PM
  #52
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Ok leaf fans you all seem to agree that you need a upgrade in goal. Your options seem to be either pay thru the teeth for a goalie on a bad contract Ilya Bryzgalov Roberto Loungo Tim Thomas etc. or go for a goalie like Bernier ( the younger with potential type) who may be slightly cheap to get but for sure is cheaper on ur cap space. It also seem to be generaly accept that the leafs also need a number one center who will cost alot of cap space. To me it seems more likely you would go with the cheaper goalie with the upside to be a number one so you will have the cap space to get a great center ( thru free agency or trade) to me this makes sence.

Now to thoses who think bernier isnt worth the number one pick + i say a reimier bernier goalie scenio would have both goalies pushing for number one status would improve the leafs to the point of playoff contention thus putting the frist into a mid round pick. Bernier is a rfa at the end of the season and with the cba pushing for longer beginning contract he should have more years added meaning you can have him cheap for at least 3 years. This adds to his value imo. Hes putting up his numbers without playing regular He posted his best number when playing regular which he hasnt in a few years because he is behind one of the best goalies in the league. It comes down to wheather leafs want to pay alot for a goalie and may not afford a number one center because of it. With a cheaper goalie garented for years you have money to throw at the center or other parts of the roster.

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12-04-2012, 05:49 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Ok leaf fans you all seem to agree that you need a upgrade in goal. Your options seem to be either pay thru the teeth for a goalie on a bad contract Ilya Bryzgalov Roberto Loungo Tim Thomas etc. or go for a goalie like Bernier ( the younger with potential type) who may be slightly cheap to get but for sure is cheaper on ur cap space. It also seem to be generaly accept that the leafs also need a number one center who will cost alot of cap space. To me it seems more likely you would go with the cheaper goalie with the upside to be a number one so you will have the cap space to get a great center ( thru free agency or trade) to me this makes sence.

Now to thoses who think bernier isnt worth the number one pick + i say a reimier bernier goalie scenio would have both goalies pushing for number one status would improve the leafs to the point of playoff contention thus putting the frist into a mid round pick. Bernier is a rfa at the end of the season and with the cba pushing for longer beginning contract he should have more years added meaning you can have him cheap for at least 3 years. This adds to his value imo. Hes putting up his numbers without playing regular He posted his best number when playing regular which he hasnt in a few years because he is behind one of the best goalies in the league. It comes down to wheather leafs want to pay alot for a goalie and may not afford a number one center because of it. With a cheaper goalie garented for years you have money to throw at the center or other parts of the roster.
Cap Space: we have tons.

If the offers aren't good, I'm happy to go with Reimer/Scrivens and
hope that Carlyle can do something with the defensive system (which I think is THE problem). As long as he can address the
horrid GA situation, it will be enough.

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12-04-2012, 05:51 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Ok leaf fans you all seem to agree that you need a upgrade in goal. Your options seem to be either pay thru the teeth for a goalie on a bad contract Ilya Bryzgalov Roberto Loungo Tim Thomas etc. or go for a goalie like Bernier ( the younger with potential type) who may be slightly cheap to get but for sure is cheaper on ur cap space. It also seem to be generaly accept that the leafs also need a number one center who will cost alot of cap space. To me it seems more likely you would go with the cheaper goalie with the upside to be a number one so you will have the cap space to get a great center ( thru free agency or trade) to me this makes sence.

Now to thoses who think bernier isnt worth the number one pick + i say a reimier bernier goalie scenio would have both goalies pushing for number one status would improve the leafs to the point of playoff contention thus putting the frist into a mid round pick. Bernier is a rfa at the end of the season and with the cba pushing for longer beginning contract he should have more years added meaning you can have him cheap for at least 3 years. This adds to his value imo. Hes putting up his numbers without playing regular He posted his best number when playing regular which he hasnt in a few years because he is behind one of the best goalies in the league. It comes down to wheather leafs want to pay alot for a goalie and may not afford a number one center because of it. With a cheaper goalie garented for years you have money to throw at the center or other parts of the roster.
The problem with that approach -- we had it last year. With 2 young goalies, you're prone to stretches where you can't rely on either... and you're throwing goalies out there when what they really need is a night off. It's not a great way to develop goaltenders.

The Leafs would ideally be served with a more experienced tandem goalie. Of course, you don't dismiss a guy with Bernier's potential instantly, but the deal has to make sense.

That being said, I asked this question pre-lockout when the idea of trading Bernier surfaced... what do the Kings actually hope to accomplish in doing so? There's not a ton of room up front, and they've got a couple of young defencemen at the bottom of their lineup who they're obviously looking to develop.

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Old
12-04-2012, 06:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Cap Space: we have tons.

If the offers aren't good, I'm happy to go with Reimer/Scrivens and
hope that Carlyle can do something with the defensive system (which I think is THE problem). As long as he can address the
horrid GA situation, it will be enough.
I agree that toronto needs to tighten up defensively. I read somewhere where they want to be more king like in there approach. I think this would help your team alot. I think we all agree that Bernier would help your team out. Its a matter of price. I think with him and your team improving there defense the leafs would be close to a playoff team. I think most leaf fans are thinking they trade away there frist it will be a top 5 pick but i really dont see it cause they will improve. As a matter of fact id be willing to give the leafs a top 9 protection on the pick meaning if its in the top 9 it stays with the leafs and the kings get next years pick. i think 10 to 16 is where they will end up and i think that and frattin or ashton would be a fair trade.

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12-04-2012, 06:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The problem with that approach -- we had it last year. With 2 young goalies, you're prone to stretches where you can't rely on either... and you're throwing goalies out there when what they really need is a night off. It's not a great way to develop goaltenders.

The Leafs would ideally be served with a more experienced tandem goalie. Of course, you don't dismiss a guy with Bernier's potential instantly, but the deal has to make sense.

That being said, I asked this question pre-lockout when the idea of trading Bernier surfaced... what do the Kings actually hope to accomplish in doing so? There's not a ton of room up front, and they've got a couple of young defencemen at the bottom of their lineup who they're obviously looking to develop.
As i said above i think with your team getting more defensive in there approach bernier would be a good addiction to your team. if he doesnt work out in a year or two hes easier to get rid of worse case senerio then a more expensive goalie like loungo.
The kings are looking for a young top 6 winger prefer lw as we have penner and gagne being free agents at the end of the season if theres a season that is. They also need a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft as columbus has ours in the carter trade. There is also a need by some saying we need a young defensive minded defenseman that hits to replace suderi and mitchell in a few years. Personally i dont see it we have more then enuff in the system. We would also need a backup goalie to replace bernier but not we can get that in a seprate deal.

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12-04-2012, 06:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
As i said above i think with your team getting more defensive in there approach bernier would be a good addiction to your team. if he doesnt work out in a year or two hes easier to get rid of worse case senerio then a more expensive goalie like loungo.
The kings are looking for a young top 6 winger prefer lw as we have penner and gagne being free agents at the end of the season if theres a season that is. They also need a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft as columbus has ours in the carter trade. There is also a need by some saying we need a young defensive minded defenseman that hits to replace suderi and mitchell in a few years. Personally i dont see it we have more then enuff in the system. We would also need a backup goalie to replace bernier but not we can get that in a seprate deal.
The problem with that approach is -- if it doesn't work out, there's no way the Leafs will recoup the value they gave up to get Bernier.

Then of course comes the issue -- the Leafs don't have a young top 6 winger to give up for Bernier. Kessel/JvR/Lupul/Kulemin wouldn't be available... so the best you'd be looking at is probably Kadri.. at which point the kings may prefer their own guys. In terms of a defenceman, the Leafs also need a young stay-at-home guy, so there's nothing available there, and Ben Scrivens is hardly motivation to trade Jonathan Bernier.

As for a first, possible, but the Kings really don't need one. It's not going to make them a better team.

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12-04-2012, 06:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The problem with that approach is -- if it doesn't work out, there's no way the Leafs will recoup the value they gave up to get Bernier.

Then of course comes the issue -- the Leafs don't have a young top 6 winger to give up for Bernier. Kessel/JvR/Lupul/Kulemin wouldn't be available... so the best you'd be looking at is probably Kadri.. at which point the kings may prefer their own guys. In terms of a defenceman, the Leafs also need a young stay-at-home guy, so there's nothing available there, and Ben Scrivens is hardly motivation to trade Jonathan Bernier.

As for a first, possible, but the Kings really don't need one. It's not going to make them a better team.
I dont see the leafs getting a starting goalie without giving up at least there frist round pick so no matter what they do there frist is going. The kings would be looking at frattin or aston as the player they want back We need them to play next year not this year. The kings can get by without the pick your right but the reason the kings have gotten to this postion is by using there picks and drafting well. I think they need to be drafting well so they can replace players as needed. This draft is suposed to be a good one so i want a pick in it.

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12-04-2012, 07:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I dont see the leafs getting a starting goalie without giving up at least there frist round pick so no matter what they do there frist is going. The kings would be looking at frattin or aston as the player they want back We need them to play next year not this year. The kings can get by without the pick your right but the reason the kings have gotten to this postion is by using there picks and drafting well. I think they need to be drafting well so they can replace players as needed. This draft is suposed to be a good one so i want a pick in it.
I'd do conditional 1st in 2013 + Carter Ashton for Bernier.

The condition being the Leafs make the playoffs or the pick becomes a high/mid 2nd in the same draft.

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12-04-2012, 07:16 PM
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Jonathan Bernier accomplishments...at and since his draft...

2006 Top goaltender available in the 2006 draft, 11th overall

2007 QMJHL Playoff MVP (Lafleur) and Champions (President's)

2007 makes NHL debut for Kings, starting a game at the age of 19

2008 WJC Team Canada named to squad

2009-2010 AHL goaltender of the year (Bastien) and AHL all star for Team Canada

Basically except for the years he's bouncing back and forth between LA and minors, and the one year he pouted after being sent down, when JB plays a full year, he's been the best of his group.

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12-04-2012, 07:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I dont see the leafs getting a starting goalie without giving up at least there frist round pick so no matter what they do there frist is going. The kings would be looking at frattin or aston as the player they want back We need them to play next year not this year. The kings can get by without the pick your right but the reason the kings have gotten to this postion is by using there picks and drafting well. I think they need to be drafting well so they can replace players as needed. This draft is suposed to be a good one so i want a pick in it.
The Leafs aren't looking for a starting goalie, they're looking for a competent tandem guy with experience. If we can get a true #1 then obviously that's something to consider (and a first could be available), but Bernier is neither a true #1 or competent tandem guy with experience).

Draft picks are the last thing that a Stanley Cup winning team should be trading for.

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12-04-2012, 07:22 PM
  #62
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I'd do conditional 1st in 2013 + Carter Ashton for Bernier.

The condition being the Leafs make the playoffs or the pick becomes a high/mid 2nd in the same draft.
umm close but no Lets see i said 9 your saying 16 pick at least so settle in the middle at 13? and if not 2 2nds?

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12-04-2012, 07:28 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The Leafs aren't looking for a starting goalie, they're looking for a competent tandem guy with experience. If we can get a true #1 then obviously that's something to consider (and a first could be available), but Bernier is neither a true #1 or competent tandem guy with experience).

Draft picks are the last thing that a Stanley Cup winning team should be trading for.
lol well thats ur opinion ill stick to whats got us a cup You need to be able to replish from within or be able to trade for stuff you need with players from within. Either way having good young players coming up helps a team.

Also your opinion on bernier but alot of people disagree and say hes a young goalie with alot of upside and ready to start if given a opportunity. I ask how can you say hes not a true number 1 if hes never had a opportunity one way or the other to prove it ?

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12-04-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The Leafs aren't looking for a starting goalie, they're looking for a competent tandem guy with experience. If we can get a true #1 then obviously that's something to consider (and a first could be available), but Bernier is neither a true #1 or competent tandem guy with experience).

Draft picks are the last thing that a Stanley Cup winning team should be trading for.
I don't know, we need to keep restocking the cupboard, we've traded quite a few picks and prospects in the last couple of years. We want to be contending for the next ten years not the next ten minutes.

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12-04-2012, 07:47 PM
  #65
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I don't know, we need to keep restocking the cupboard, we've traded quite a few picks and prospects in the last couple of years. We want to be contending for the next ten years not the next ten minutes.
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lol well thats ur opinion ill stick to whats got us a cup You need to be able to replish from within or be able to trade for stuff you need with players from within. Either way having good young players coming up helps a team.

Also your opinion on bernier but alot of people disagree and say hes a young goalie with alot of upside and ready to start if given a opportunity. I ask how can you say hes not a true number 1 if hes never had a opportunity one way or the other to prove it ?
Like I said, when you've got a cup winner, the last thing you do is seek assets which are 4-5 years away from helping you. There's no way you can reasonably expect to be in a similar position at that time. You focus on the immidiate, because you know that having a the right player in the right spot could be the difference between another cup and not.

My opinion of Bernier is that he's a young goalie with a lot of upside, and that it's certainly time for him to be put in a role where he has an opportunity to earn a starter's job. However, he certainly isn't a true #1 goalie, as being called one would require him to have proved that he is.

You don't label a guy a true #1 NHL goalie because he has great numbers in non-#1 NHL goalie roles. You label him a true #1 NHL goalie if he proves successful in a #1 NHL goaltender's role.

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12-04-2012, 07:50 PM
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umm close but no Lets see i said 9 your saying 16 pick at least so settle in the middle at 13? and if not 2 2nds?
I'd probably do a 2nd + 3rd.

So..

Carter Ashton + pick (15-30) in 2013

or

Carter Ashton + picks (31-44) + (61-74) in 2013

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12-04-2012, 07:59 PM
  #67
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Like I said, when you've got a cup winner, the last thing you do is seek assets which are 4-5 years away from helping you. There's no way you can reasonably expect to be in a similar position at that time. You focus on the immidiate, because you know that having a the right player in the right spot could be the difference between another cup and not.

My opinion of Bernier is that he's a young goalie with a lot of upside, and that it's certainly time for him to be put in a role where he has an opportunity to earn a starter's job. However, he certainly isn't a true #1 goalie, as being called one would require him to have proved that he is.

You don't label a guy a true #1 NHL goalie because he has great numbers in non-#1 NHL goalie roles. You label him a true #1 NHL goalie if he proves successful in a #1 NHL goaltender's role.
He's never going to get the chance to earn a starters role behind Quick, who signed for 10 years. It would be a calculated risk (injury to Quick), but Quick is the starter. Providing we can get an adequate backup we might as well get some decent assets that can be used elsewhere, if we can get a young winger with top6 potential who is just about to make the jump, or already has a season or two under his belt (eg tedenby plus a pick or prospect) i'm all for it.
Bernier has done all that has been asked of him and it would be unfair to keep him behind Quick for much longer, he deserves a chance to earn a starters role elsewhere.

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12-04-2012, 08:02 PM
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He's never going to get the chance to earn a starters role behind Quick, who signed for 10 years. It would be a calculated risk (injury to Quick), but Quick is the starter. Providing we can get an adequate backup we might as well get some decent assets that can be used elsewhere, if we can get a young winger with top6 potential who is just about to make the jump, or already has a season or two under his belt (eg tedenby plus a pick or prospect) i'm all for it.
Bernier has done all that has been asked of him and it would be unfair to keep him behind Quick for much longer, he deserves a chance to earn a starters role elsewhere.
Of course.... which is where the Kings best interest may diverge from Bernier's best interest.

Obviously it's best for him to get an opportunity, but the Kings need a backup, he's not proven enough to get a team's young established top 6 winger (like a Tedenby), and the Kings have quite a few borderline NHLers / young guys at the bottom of their lineup that there's limited room for another NHL-ready prospect.

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12-04-2012, 08:05 PM
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Steep? Sounds reasonable to me. I'd drive Teddy to airport.

Get Lou & Dean on the phone.
That seems decent enough, I think part of me would like Bernier to end up at the devils, A good organisation, following on from a legendary goalie. He'd get a legit shot at being a number one as long as he didn't s%$# the bed.

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12-04-2012, 08:08 PM
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Bernier hasn't done any thing to warrant the price the Kings would be asking for him. The question is would he be better then what the Oilers have, not worth the risk. Get a veteran goalie to backup Dubie and let Dubie have his shot, he's earned it. Trading for Bernier would send the wrong message to Dubie that management doesn't have much faith in him. If Bernier was a definite improvement maybe, but he's not, Oilers pass, especailly with Bunz coming up.
WeirdAl, I don't think trading for Bernier would send the wrong message to Dubey as trading for a surefire #1 like Luongo would. Sure Dubey has earned his shot but he still needs to be pushed otherwise complacency just sets in.
We have no idea what the price would be but provided the price was reasonable I would be prepared to roll the dice on a guy like Bernier when Khabby is gone.

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12-04-2012, 08:09 PM
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I'd probably do a 2nd + 3rd.

So..

Carter Ashton + pick (15-30) in 2013

or

Carter Ashton + picks (31-44) + (61-74) in 2013
umm no i was settleing on 13 not 15 ( yes the two picks make a difference) and ashton but no to the 2nd and 3rd im staying with 2 seconds or a frist in 14 that 2nd 3rd is to low for bernier.

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12-04-2012, 08:19 PM
  #72
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Hockey fans seem to have trouble reading . He said a good fit would be battling it out with an aging goalie or battling it out with a young guy for the top spot . he did not say this was the case in LA
Either that or we suck at sentence structure.

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You misread my comment, I never said he was used 50/50, I said (meant) ideally he would be in a situation to assume 50% of the workload from an aging number one. He did battle it out with Quick in the sense that he kept pressure on him to perform and was given, like you mentioned 41 games in 2 seasons, obviously Quick won, he stood on his head, is the better goalie (at the moment), won the conn smyth and got paid.
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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
He's a potential number one, Ideally he'd be put in a similar situation as he was in LA, battling it out with another potential number one or splitting 50/50 with an aging number 1.
So DontgoZiggy, what you are saying is that there are in fact THREE possibilities when he gets traded and those are:

A) He gets put in a similar situation as he was in LA, i.e. playing about 20 games a season as a back-up until he develops.

B) He battles it out with another potential no. 1 goalie (I'm assuming you mean like a Lindback, Crawford, Bobrovsky type)

C) Platooning with an aging no. 1 goalie (I'm assuming you mean like Brodeur or Anderson)

In which case, I would kindly advise you to use a colon ':' as that is a list.

However, if this is not the case I would have to hold you with what you said which compares his time in LA as essentially getting bigger minutes than he actually did, as I am lead to believe he ever battled it out or split time 50/50 with a much superior Quick.

Unless, of course I am still missing something that you have not said. However, I don't really want to go further than this comment as I don't see why arguments on boards like these should about semantics so I'll hear you out and that's that.

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12-04-2012, 08:20 PM
  #73
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Of course.... which is where the Kings best interest may diverge from Bernier's best interest.

Obviously it's best for him to get an opportunity, but the Kings need a backup, he's not proven enough to get a team's young established top 6 winger (like a Tedenby), and the Kings have quite a few borderline NHLers / young guys at the bottom of their lineup that there's limited room for another NHL-ready prospect.
Is tedenby that established a top 6er, he hasn't exactly shone, but he still has great potential (similar to Bernier) We do have quite a few young guys that are near enough but most are bangers, I'd be after more skilled guys.
Penner is signed short term(1yr) and had much publicised motivational issues (although he came good in the playoffs) Gagne is signed short term(1yr) but seems fragile (although surgery has him fixed now apparently) and is getting older, Williams has been fragile in the past. It seems a logical area for us to reinforce as long as we can get a decent backup.

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12-04-2012, 08:25 PM
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seanlinden
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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
Is tedenby that established a top 6er, he hasn't exactly shone, but he still has great potential (similar to Bernier) We do have quite a few young guys that are near enough but most are bangers, I'd be after more skilled guys.
Penner is signed short term(1yr) and had much publicised motivational issues (although he came good in the playoffs) Gagne is signed short term(1yr) but seems fragile (although surgery has him fixed now apparently) and is getting older, Williams has been fragile in the past. It seems a logical area for us to reinforce as long as we can get a decent backup.
That's certainly debatable, but he likely wouldn't be available anyways. NJ has Marty/Hedberg signed for next year, and making a Hedberg/Bernier swap as Marty's backup just doesn't seem like something they're going to do.

I get the idea of reinforcing the area... but as of right now, those positions aren't available, so any projects you acquire will likely block others to a certain extent.

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12-04-2012, 08:31 PM
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DontgoZiggy
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Either that or we suck at sentence structure.





So DontgoZiggy, what you are saying is that there are in fact THREE possibilities when he gets traded and those are:

A) He gets put in a similar situation as he was in LA, i.e. playing about 20 games a season as a back-up until he develops.

B) He battles it out with another potential no. 1 goalie (I'm assuming you mean like a Lindback, Crawford, Bobrovsky type)

C) Platooning with an aging no. 1 goalie (I'm assuming you mean like Brodeur or Anderson)

In which case, I would kindly advise you to use a colon ':' as that is a list.

However, if this is not the case I would have to hold you with what you said which compares his time in LA as essentially getting bigger minutes than he actually did, as I am lead to believe he ever battled it out or split time 50/50 with a much superior Quick.

Unless, of course I am still missing something that you have not said. However, I don't really want to go further than this comment as I don't see why arguments on boards like these should about semantics so I'll hear you out and that's that.
I'm a Carpenter by trade not an author, I was pointing out that you got the wrong end of the stick about what i meant.

Bernier did not split 50/50 with Quick or an aging netminder.

Bernier needs to get a higher workload to improve and he would benefit the team his is traded to most being in a situation where he is battling it out with another young netminder (like he did with Quick) or splitting time with an old guy. better?

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