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Lockout Discussion Thread 3.0

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:07 PM
  #576
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
Just talked with a well respected NHL GM. He said the majority of owners want a deal, Bettman blew it with the initial 43/57 offer, (1)

Bettman, Jacobs,Batterman have no respect for players (or GM's), this whole lockout is one great wasted opportunity to advance the game. (2)

One of the biggest complaints from this NHL GM. Most owners don't understand nuances of CBA, GM's mostly seen by Bettman as the enemy.

This GM used Lamoriello as example. Look what NHL did to Lou and NJ after Kovalchuk signing. Arbitration, huge fine, loss of draft picks.(1)

Last CBA negotiation in 04-05, Lamoriello was constantly involved in negotiations. Where is he now? (2)
Walsh is the big evidence that one doesn't need to be bright to be a player agent.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:07 PM
  #577
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no limit on the players attending the meeting. i wonder how the 6 owneres would react if 100+ players showed up?

they could just do a royal rumble to settle things....

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:09 PM
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Walsh is the big evidence that one doesn't need to be bright to be a player agent.
Being biased and having an agenda doesn't make someone stupid...

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:10 PM
  #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
no limit on the players attending the meeting. i wonder how the 6 owneres would react if 100+ players showed up?

they could just do a royal rumble to settle things....
Most of them are too busy playing in Europe!!!

the 18 Players that will be there are:

Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, Sidney Crosby, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff, Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Jonathan Toews and Kevin Westgarth.

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12-04-2012, 01:21 PM
  #580
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I'll be first to agree that Walsh is annoying, self motivated and obviously completely biased but doesn't mean that sometimes things he points out aren't true

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12-04-2012, 01:28 PM
  #581
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You can also say things that are true and be completely one-sided in doing so.

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Old
12-04-2012, 01:51 PM
  #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Walsh is the big evidence that one doesn't need to be bright to be a player agent.
I don't understand...Are you saying he's lying? Making things up? He's relaying the opinion of an NHL GM...What makes him an idiot doing that? I think it's quite interesting and telling if an NHL GM is saying things like that.

As is the rumour that the NHL COO is stepping down.

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12-04-2012, 02:08 PM
  #583
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Seven minutes into the meeting, and they are still talking...

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Old
12-04-2012, 02:11 PM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I don't understand...Are you saying he's lying? Making things up? He's relaying the opinion of an NHL GM...What makes him an idiot doing that? I think it's quite interesting and telling if an NHL GM is saying things like that.

As is the rumour that the NHL COO is stepping down.
He paints everything into a conspiracy and slants everything in his favor, sounds like a teenager trying to get his way.

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12-04-2012, 02:32 PM
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I don't understand...Are you saying he's lying? Making things up? He's relaying the opinion of an NHL GM...What makes him an idiot doing that? I think it's quite interesting and telling if an NHL GM is saying things like that.

As is the rumour that the NHL COO is stepping down.
Is that rumour on twitter or something? I've seen you mention it on the mainboard but I haven't seen it myself.

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Old
12-04-2012, 02:39 PM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I don't understand...Are you saying he's lying? Making things up? He's relaying the opinion of an NHL GM...What makes him an idiot doing that? I think it's quite interesting and telling if an NHL GM is saying things like that.

As is the rumour that the NHL COO is stepping down.
Actually, with Walsh, I wouldn't be surprised if he was lying in an effort to try and manipulate the process towards the players. It is quite possible he is telling the truth, but I don't trust Walsh or his motives. If LeBrun or McKenzie stated this, i would easily believe them, but Walsh? No, not so much.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:07 PM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He paints everything into a conspiracy and slants everything in his favor, sounds like a teenager trying to get his way.
It's interesting how a lot of people incorrectly believe that any thoery that involves a conspiracy is automatically wrong or stupid or defective in some way.

The owners' lockout *is* a conspiracy.

From Wikipedia:
Cabal, an association between religious, political, or tribal officials to further their own ends, usually by intrigue
Conspiracy (civil), an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights, or to gain an unfair advantage

From dictionary.com
con·spir·a·cy [kuh n-spir-uh-see] Show IPA
noun, plural con·spir·a·cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

*******************

Here we have the owners acting concurrently, with their internal machinations largely secret from the public eye, in order to achieve an end that is to their own advantage.

If you're talking about the lockout, then you're talking about conspiracies.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-04-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old
12-04-2012, 03:08 PM
  #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Actually, with Walsh, I wouldn't be surprised if he was lying in an effort to try and manipulate the process towards the players.
Nothing he says on Twitter has the power to "manipulate the process".

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:12 PM
  #589
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The NHL should immediately drop 4-6 teams.

Florida, Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, Isles and Carolina.

Many problems would be solved instantly.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:41 PM
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
The NHL should immediately drop 4-6 teams.

Florida, Nashville, Phoenix, Columbus, Isles and Carolina.

Many problems would be solved instantly.
And lose how many union jobs in the process? If you're trying to come up with a solution the NHLPA will agree to, this won't be it.

I, too, think the league is too bloated.. but contraction won't be part of this solution this time around.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:42 PM
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
All these arguments are so tired. Both sides are the same! So, support the owners.
I don't buy tickets to watch Geoff Molson play hockey.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:45 PM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domenic View Post
I don't buy tickets to watch Geoff Molson play hockey.
He was being facetious.

That being said, I don't buy tickets or tune in to specifically watch any players play. I tune in for what's on the front of the jersey, not the back.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
He was being facetious.

That being said, I don't buy tickets or tune in to specifically watch any players play. I tune in for what's on the front of the jersey, not the back.
My bad - tough to catch facetiousness on here sometimes.

Of course, I root for laundry too. The best players in the world make the product all the more funner to watch, however.

I'm not getting the impression the owners are seeing the league as an owner-player partnership.

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Old
12-04-2012, 03:56 PM
  #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He paints everything into a conspiracy and slants everything in his favor, sounds like a teenager trying to get his way.
Well, in this case he's just relaying what someone told him...Might be picking and choosing but I find it interesting if a GM is indeed saying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Is that rumour on twitter or something? I've seen you mention it on the mainboard but I haven't seen it myself.
It was on the Puckdaddy blog, though apparently it was denied. That means little to me, the guy won't officially step down unless either the lockout ends or the season is cancelled, if he indeed intends to quit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Actually, with Walsh, I wouldn't be surprised if he was lying in an effort to try and manipulate the process towards the players. It is quite possible he is telling the truth, but I don't trust Walsh or his motives. If LeBrun or McKenzie stated this, i would easily believe them, but Walsh? No, not so much.
He's a loudmouth but he isn't a liar.

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Old
12-04-2012, 04:42 PM
  #595
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Quote:
Bettman, Jacobs,Batterman have no respect for players (or GM's), this whole lockout is one great wasted opportunity to advance the game. (2)
Really hard to disagree with this anyway.

Los Angeles, the second biggest market in the USA and a completely untapped one at that, had just won the cup to packed arenas. They've got a young core and can compete for years to come.

New York, the largest market, had just made the conference finals, and had just acquired Rick Nash. They've got a young core and can compete for years to come.

Other large, key markets such as Philadelphia, Chicago, and Boston were also doing well.

17 of 30 teams were profitable, with total league operating income of 140 million dollars a year including a 3 million dollar annual profit for the median team, 26 of 30 teams were benefiting from increasing franchise valuations. Key markets were competing. You could watch hockey on NBC.

As Charles Dickens would say, it was the best of times to be a player, it was the best of times to be an owner.

Now was not the time to hold a lockout. Lockouts are a reasonable strategy for struggling businesses, not for businesses booming and growing in all directions, at which point the key strategy is to move forward. Gary Bettman, with his 3rd lockout (!!!), and the anti-union ideological crusader and cheapskate Jeremy Jacobs really did blow it. They should have just focused on growing the game, which is far more profitable than taking from the players.

If they lose the momentum they've had, the owners may lose billions of dollars. Couldn't happen to a group of nicer folks.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-04-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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Old
12-04-2012, 04:59 PM
  #596
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From TOR board:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...27s%20mistakes

Quote:
“The NHL made a mistake in overexpanding to bad markets, and now it’s trying to make the players pay for that mistake,” said Raymond D. Sauer, president of the North American Association of Sports Economists and chair of the economics department at Clemson University. “It’s that simple.”
pretty much what i and others have been saying.

and why J.Jacobs is in an ok position to take a loss this season:
Quote:
The Bruins are better positioned than most NHL franchises to generate local TV money because Jeremy Jacobs owns a 20 percent share of New England Sports Network, which broadcasts most of the team’s games. That means the team will survive and probably do well, no matter what damage the current stoppage wreaks on the league’s fan base.

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Old
12-04-2012, 05:20 PM
  #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post

17 of 30 teams were profitable
Big deal. Please, let us move on now. Franchises are overvalued, more specifically, struggling franchises are overvalued. And as you point out, 13 teams are operating at a loss.

As I have said many threads ago, there are too many teams playing in front of empty seats and this is the real underlying issue as to why Bettman and some owners are trying ever so hard to pinch as much as they can from the pie.

Like I have said in the past, the irony to the NHLPA's strong stance is that they will indirectly bring to open the real issues at the core - and the solution is one that holds even more consequences in the short term than if they had accepted the latest of offers. So what the NHLPA is really accomplishing is getting to the root of the problem, and for that, I applaud them.

Sure, an 2 extra teams in Canada can replace some jobs, but we have realistically a handful of teams that need to disappear to have a truly sustainable and functional league.

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Old
12-04-2012, 05:27 PM
  #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Really hard to disagree with this anyway.

Los Angeles, the second biggest market in the USA and a completely untapped one at that, had just won the cup to packed arenas. They've got a young core and can compete for years to come.

New York, the largest market, had just made the conference finals, and had just acquired Rick Nash. They've got a young core and can compete for years to come.

Other large, key markets such as Philadelphia, Chicago, and Boston were also doing well.

17 of 30 teams were profitable, with total league operating income of 140 million dollars a year including a 3 million dollar annual profit for the median team, 26 of 30 teams were benefiting from increasing franchise valuations. Key markets were competing. You could watch hockey on NBC.

As Charles Dickens would say, it was the best of times to be a player, it was the best of times to be an owner.

Now was not the time to hold a lockout. Lockouts are a reasonable strategy for struggling businesses, not for businesses booming and growing in all directions, at which point the key strategy is to move forward. Gary Bettman, with his 3rd lockout (!!!), and the anti-union ideological crusader and cheapskate Jeremy Jacobs really did blow it. They should have just focused on growing the game, which is far more profitable than taking from the players.

If they lose the momentum they've had, the owners may lose billions of dollars. Couldn't happen to a group of nicer folks.
If anyone should be livid about this, it's the Kings ownership group. I know anecdotal evidence means nothing but I know a few people from Southern California who watched hockey for the first time last season, and have already given up on it. Obviously these sort of bandwagon fans will come back with the right level of success, just as the Gretzky fans returned last year, but it's a major step backwards for that market.

The timing of this is just hilarious, because a lot of the unstable warm weather markets - LA, Phoenix, Florida being the obvious ones, had great seasons last year and this lockout undoes everything for them.

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Old
12-04-2012, 05:43 PM
  #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Big deal. Please, let us move on now. Franchises are overvalued, more specifically, struggling franchises are overvalued. And as you point out, 13 teams are operating at a loss.

As I have said many threads ago, there are too many teams playing in front of empty seats and this is the real underlying issue as to why Bettman and some owners are trying ever so hard to pinch as much as they can from the pie.

Like I have said in the past, the irony to the NHLPA's strong stance is that they will indirectly bring to open the real issues at the core - and the solution is one that holds even more consequences in the short term than if they had accepted the latest of offers. So what the NHLPA is really accomplishing is getting to the root of the problem, and for that, I applaud them.

Sure, an 2 extra teams in Canada can replace some jobs, but we have realistically a handful of teams that need to disappear to have a truly sustainable and functional league.
I've already refuted the myopic argument that contraction is a viable solution to the league's problems, but I'll do so again.

Currently, the four teams doing worst are ranked 27-30 in operating income. If you remove the 4 worst teams, the average revenue per team should go up and ... the teams now ranked 23-26 will be the 4 lowest teams and now struggling to keep up with the new, higher average. You'll be right back to square one. Will you suggest contracting those?

In today's NHL, you have parity of expenses simultaneously with disparity of income. As long as you have both, there will be successful teams and struggling teams. You can reduce the league to 10 teams and you'll still have 2 or 3 teams at the bottom that would "need to be contracted" if one follows this asinine argument.

At best, contraction might work if there are 1 or 2 teams that are outliers, in which case relocation works better anyway. For the vast majority of the teams, income and expenses are distributed smoothly and continuously, and are self-similar, thus contraction would solve nothing.


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-04-2012 at 05:52 PM.
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Old
12-04-2012, 05:55 PM
  #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I've already refuted the pathetic argument that contraction would solve all problems, but I'll do so again.

Currently, the four teams doing worst are ranked 27-30 in operating income. If you remove the 4 worst teams, the average revenue per team should go up and ... the teams now ranked 23-26 will be the 4 lowest teams and now struggling to keep up with the new, higher average. You'll be right back to square one. Will you suggest contracting those?

In today's NHL, you have parity of expenses simultaneously with disparity of income. As long as you have both, there will be successful teams and struggling teams. You can reduce the league to 10 teams and you'll still have 2 or 3 teams at the bottom that would "need to be contracted" if one follows this asinine argument.

At best, contraction might work if there are 1 or 2 teams that are outliers, in which case relocation works better anyway. For the vast majority of the teams, income and expenses are distributed smoothly and continuously, and are self-similar, thus contraction would solve nothing.
Really, what are you talking about?

Hockey needs to be played in markets that want to watch hockey. Just because the Panthers can sell out a playoff game does not make them a viable market.

What about the struggling U.S economy, and the effects that's going to have in the future in markets where hockey is already an after thought?

If we are only considering 2 more teams in Canada, than that saves 50% of the jobs lost in what I believe should NHL free markets: Florida, Tampa, Dallas and Phoenix

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