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Owner-Player meeting only, no Bettman or Fehr (UPD: 12/4 in NYC)

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12-04-2012, 09:57 AM
  #526
LadyStanley
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McGran previews meeting

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12-04-2012, 09:58 AM
  #527
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With Daly and Fehr Jr in the room I think this is just a dog and pony show

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12-04-2012, 10:16 AM
  #528
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With Daly and Fehr Jr in the room I think this is just a dog and pony show
it doesn't matter whether they are there are not. all the owners are going to do is collectively re-affirm what bettman has been saying all along.

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12-04-2012, 10:23 AM
  #529
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he's the richest owner in the league, so maybe that. or maybe the two new guys because they would have an insight into the business end of things that other longer term owners wouldn't have. as in, what makes a hockey team viable as something to purchase? what determines the value of a hockey team to investors?
That makes a lot of sense to me - I know Chipman would have very detailed business models on running an NHL team to support the recent purchase. Probably Vinick too. Maybe they are in the best position to speak about the variables involved in the business of hockey and the importance of controlling salary costs in making it work in their markets.

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12-04-2012, 11:46 AM
  #530
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With Daly and Fehr Jr in the room I think this is just a dog and pony show


I am inclined to agree but those two have been talking almost non stop since this all began, and especially on days when Gary and Don weren't talking, so maybe their ongoing dialogue is a good sign?

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12-04-2012, 11:48 AM
  #531
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That makes a lot of sense to me - I know Chipman would have very detailed business models on running an NHL team to support the recent purchase. Probably Vinick too. Maybe they are in the best position to speak about the variables involved in the business of hockey and the importance of controlling salary costs in making it work in their markets.
During the late 90s vinik sold his hedge fund company for 19.2 billion dollars. When it comes to finances trust me he will be a presence. Also bear in mind that st.Louis who is one of the nhlpas most out spoken members has nothing but respect for vinik and doesn't consider him of the same cloth as other owners. So him being there may be a bridge to come to an understanding.

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12-04-2012, 11:50 AM
  #532
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This is a 'I call your bluff' meeting. There is no positive ending from this, 30-45 minute 'meeting'.

Still not sure who is calling whos bluff though...?

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12-04-2012, 12:02 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Interesting thought. They may also be able to sit there, and directly ask the players what they have done to earn the kind of venom that the players direct at them? These guys weren't around for the last CBA. They didn't cut their salaries 24%. They're brand-new at this and trying to make their businesses work and genuinely don't understand why the players are being so militant toward them. This is a business negotiation, not a union-busting salary-burning exercise like the players are trying to portray it.

That might provoke a nice awkward silence from the players. Somebody has got to be able to break through this cone of owner-hatred the players have surrounded themselves with. Chipman's probably as good a bet as anyone. If he can't do it, if the players can't let go of this hate, there'll be no deal anyway and the league is probably headed for Armageddon.
"what they have done to earn the kind of venom that the players direct at them"- not so sure the venom is directed at a majority of the owners. Bettman's an easy guy to dislike at the best of times (lots of examples of that), notwithstanding all the great things people on these boards say about him. Yeah, he's apparently made some owners (and players) a lot of money but really, in exchange for what? The whole league's been put at risk with his most recent foolhardiness and I predict he will be gone shortly after this fiasco's resolved, whatever way it goes.

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12-04-2012, 12:03 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by ti-vite View Post
This is a 'I call your bluff' meeting. There is no positive ending from this, 30-45 minute 'meeting'.

Still not sure who is calling whos bluff though...?
How are the owners bluffing?

What card do they have to give up?

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12-04-2012, 12:04 PM
  #535
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Players don't trust Bettman, they like normal people think Bettman Runs EVERYTHING.

They fail to grasp that Bettman is an employee of the owners.

This is Bettman giving the players a view into his world. This is to show the Owners AS A Collective whole, call the shots.

Once the players see moderates like Tampa, Winn, Pitt pretty much saying the same thing Bettman has said all along; they are going to be dumb struck about what to do.

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12-04-2012, 12:12 PM
  #536
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How are the owners bluffing?

What card do they have to give up?
The owners, I would imagine, don't think the players will sacrifice so much income.
The players, I would imagine, don't believe the financials are that bad and the owners will not cancel a second season. Alot of emotion from young stars, I dont grasp.

The owners will confirm they are together through this and adjustments (salaries reduced and fluctuate with revenues) is required.

I hope I am wrong (2 year lockout predicted at the beginning of this) and we can get back to watching NHL hockey with my son, drinking beer on saturday night, realising there is a second game on saturday pacific time like its a x-mas present

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12-04-2012, 12:24 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
"what they have done to earn the kind of venom that the players direct at them"- not so sure the venom is directed at a majority of the owners. Bettman's an easy guy to dislike at the best of times (lots of examples of that), notwithstanding all the great things people on these boards say about him. Yeah, he's apparently made some owners (and players) a lot of money but really, in exchange for what? The whole league's been put at risk with his most recent foolhardiness and I predict he will be gone shortly after this fiasco's resolved, whatever way it goes.
Care to give some specific examples? The league is significantly better off today than they were 10-12 years ago - I can't speak about too much before that time as I didn't really follow hockey, and don't have the time/inclination to go look into the business of hockey for the early/mid 90s. I can look at what he did 7 years ago, and what he's trying to do today - and honestly I have no issues with it (at least the majority of it). I recognize that the game will be better off long term if he can get what he's trying to get in this CBA.

Honestly I think a lot of the **** that Bettman gets isn't logical, it's purely emotional. Fans missed a year of hockey, and are missing it again. And it's easier to dump on him vs one (or all) of the 30 individual owners... but it doesn't make it right - other than that it's his job to take that **** and abuse from the fans - regardless of how deserved it is.

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12-04-2012, 12:28 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Once the players see moderates like Tampa, Winn, Pitt pretty much saying the same thing Bettman has said all along; they are going to be dumb struck about what to do.
they are going to go on Twitter and whine and threaten everybody, then the NHLPA will petition the Canadian and US government for a tax payer bailout to guarantee their contracts.

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12-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #539
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18 vs 6

http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/sidney...218/story.html

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12-04-2012, 12:36 PM
  #540
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http://www.nhlpa.com/news/players-an...rs-meet-in-nyc
By NHLPA Staff // December 4, 2012 // CBA Updates, Media Releases

The 18 players present in New York today are:
Craig Adams
David Backes
Michael Cammalleri
Sidney Crosby
B.J. Crombeen
Mathieu Darche
Shane Doan
Ron Hainsey
Shawn Horcoff
Jamal Mayers
Manny Malhotra
Andy McDonald
Ryan Miller
George Parros
Brad Richards
Martin St. Louis
Jonathan Toews
Kevin Westgarth.

sorry if posted

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12-04-2012, 12:44 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Interesting thought. They may also be able to sit there, and directly ask the players what they have done to earn the kind of venom that the players direct at them?

How about signing over $100 million worth of contracts in the 48hrs immediately preceding the lockout only to turn around and say "sorry, we won't be paying you the full value of the contract we signed 24 hrs ago"?

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12-04-2012, 01:04 PM
  #542
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How about signing over $100 million worth of contracts in the 48hrs immediately preceding the lockout only to turn around and say "sorry, we won't be paying you the full value of the contract we signed 24 hrs ago"?
I really don't get why the players (and some fans) are so worked up about this. Would the players be better off with $60 million rather than $100 million? The owners were going to be going for a 50/50 split regardless, so those players are still better off signing a big contract than a smaller one.

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12-04-2012, 01:07 PM
  #543
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Care to give some specific examples? The league is significantly better off today than they were 10-12 years ago - I can't speak about too much before that time as I didn't really follow hockey, and don't have the time/inclination to go look into the business of hockey for the early/mid 90s. I can look at what he did 7 years ago, and what he's trying to do today - and honestly I have no issues with it (at least the majority of it). I recognize that the game will be better off long term if he can get what he's trying to get in this CBA.

Honestly I think a lot of the **** that Bettman gets isn't logical, it's purely emotional. Fans missed a year of hockey, and are missing it again. And it's easier to dump on him vs one (or all) of the 30 individual owners... but it doesn't make it right - other than that it's his job to take that **** and abuse from the fans - regardless of how deserved it is.
Well the most telling examples would be just about everytime he hands the Stanley Cup to the winning team. And is the league significantly better off not playing and at risk of losing both players, sponsors, fans and credibility? Better off with a potential decertification move by the players which could ultimately result in 2 years of not playing, contraction or relocation of some franchises, loss of some of the best players in the world and a whole different system. And do you think if the NHL gets what its demanding in this round, we won't be right back here in 5, 7 or 8 years? I'm sorry but I'm not buying it and I'm putting about 70% of the blame on Bettman and his cronies.

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12-04-2012, 01:11 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Interesting thought. They may also be able to sit there, and directly ask the players what they have done to earn the kind of venom that the players direct at them? These guys weren't around for the last CBA. They didn't cut their salaries 24%. They're brand-new at this and trying to make their businesses work and genuinely don't understand why the players are being so militant toward them. This is a business negotiation, not a union-busting salary-burning exercise like the players are trying to portray it.

That might provoke a nice awkward silence from the players. Somebody has got to be able to break through this cone of owner-hatred the players have surrounded themselves with. Chipman's probably as good a bet as anyone. If he can't do it, if the players can't let go of this hate, there'll be no deal anyway and the league is probably headed for Armageddon.
Yea I think you are getting warm optimus

Vinik and Chipman are both "white cowboy hat" type player friendly owners with no baggage. Mark is a really down to earth guy that is bright but normal. Neither of these guys are there to drive the deal but they can put a friendlier face on the ownership group. The players may disagree with Mark but there is no way they are going to hate him. If I know Mark he will do a good job of talking strait about the Winnipeg situation (if he is asked to) and he will definatley listen to the players.

Both these guys put a warmer friendlier face on the ownership group.

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12-04-2012, 01:15 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Players don't trust Bettman, they like normal people think Bettman Runs EVERYTHING.

They fail to grasp that Bettman is an employee of the owners.

This is Bettman giving the players a view into his world. This is to show the Owners AS A Collective whole, call the shots.

Once the players see moderates like Tampa, Winn, Pitt pretty much saying the same thing Bettman has said all along; they are going to be dumb struck about what to do.
Are you serious?

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12-04-2012, 01:19 PM
  #546
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I really don't get why the players (and some fans) are so worked up about this. Would the players be better off with $60 million rather than $100 million? The owners were going to be going for a 50/50 split regardless, so those players are still better off signing a big contract than a smaller one.
I'm with you. Contracts were always subject to having the sum of player contracts being a percentage of HRR. The renegotiation wasn't unexpected. If anyone is disingenuous, it's the player that suddenly wants to be exempt from the negotiations.

I assume that the 24% rollback in 2004 caused the PA membership to assume "Not again" as their mantra going into this negotiation.

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12-04-2012, 01:22 PM
  #547
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drosennhl 6:42am via Twitter for iPhone Today's owners-players meeting is scheduled for 2 pm in NYC. Sidney Crosby confirmed to the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review that he will be there.




SunGarrioch 6:43am via Web
Jeff Vinik has been in the league two years. Mark Chipman has been in the league one year. Both are in the room today. Why? #NHL




Buccigross 6:13am via Twitter for iPhone
“@JGSportsTalk: @Buccigross do you think an agreement is reached today?”---No. At this point we're still weeks away. A lot CAN be gained



THNRyanKennedy 6:06am via Web
Who ya got for players at the negotiating table today? I say Crosby, Toews, Backes, Westgarth, Montador and Ryan Miller. #imisstheofficepool
Yea Chipman has been in the league 1 season but he was part of the group that failed to save the Jets first time around and has been planning the return of the NHL to Winnipeg ever since. Mark may only be married to the NHL for 1 year but they dated for 17 years . Show me any other owner who quietly did more to make it into the show

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12-04-2012, 01:26 PM
  #548
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How are the owners bluffing?

What card do they have to give up?
I think the primary thing that could come out of this, if it's done openly enough, is that both sides might get a more clear sense of how members on the other side are really feeling, and not the rehearsed programmed presentations that would come from Bettman and Fehr. Sure, participants on both sides have probably be prepped as to what they should or shouldn't say but, with this many voices in the room, a truer sense of where things really stand and what potentials exist might be established. If one or both sides truly don't want the whole Season to be lost, they really do need to start getting down to brass tacks as to what has to be done to make this Season happen. In the end, it comes down to how desperately they want the Season as opposed to how desperately they want to meet their demands.

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12-04-2012, 01:30 PM
  #549
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Well the most telling examples would be just about everytime he hands the Stanley Cup to the winning team. [emotional] And is the league significantly better off not playing and at risk of losing both players, sponsors, fans and credibility? [apparently, or they would be playing. These are businessmen with a business to run.] Better off with a potential decertification move by the players which could ultimately result in 2 years of not playing, contraction or relocation of some franchises, loss of some of the best players in the world and a whole different system. [So it's the owners fault the PA is contemplating decertification?] And do you think if the NHL gets what its demanding in this round, we won't be right back here in 5, 7 or 8 years? I'm sorry but I'm not buying it and I'm putting about 70% of the blame on Bettman and his cronies.
Looking at the numbers, I fully expect the NHL to try and get more concessions from the PA in 6-8 years (whenever this new CBA expires). But that shouldn't really be surprising. The only way I see that it's preventable is if the NHL teams are all (or the majority of them) making money. And enough money that they decide that what little gain they may (or may not) receive is enough to offset losing games, and the profit and fan support with it. Right now that's not even close to being the case.

But that doesn't mean the NHL is not moving in the right direction. Things change over the years (for example, costs went from ~20m to ~40m in a decade, and the cap went from 23/39m to 54/70m). I would love to see the NHL massively increase their revenue sharing. However for that to be viable, they need the profits to be there to be sharing. For that to happen, the PA's share likely needs to go down a few more % (~47/48). Or allow the NHL a few of the reasonable exemptions they asked for. However the PA has dug in it's heels at every turn screaming bloody murder - and shooting themselves in the foot at the same time. The NHL isn't asking them to take a wage cut (make whole should eliminate the escrow hit)... they're just asking them to take smaller raises. OMG the horrors - a smaller raise.

One of my beefs with how the NHL is handling this is that they're trying to do too much too soon. Get the split and work on contract limits. Try to make other small changes down the road.

My beef with the PA is until this last offer they put forth, they've dragged their heels, and basically refused to negotiate. The NHL moved leeps and bounds from their original offer, while the PA said **** you 5 or 6 different ways.

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12-04-2012, 01:45 PM
  #550
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My beef with the PA is until this last offer they put forth, they've dragged their heels, and basically refused to negotiate. The NHL moved leeps and bounds from their original offer, while the PA said **** you 5 or 6 different ways.

That's no really fair.....if the players first counter would have been 71% of HRR (the owners subtracted 14% so the players add 14%) would we be saying the players have moved leaps and bounds from their original offer?

I'm pro owner but lets be real the only side giving anything here will be the players

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