1) Because 1 canceled season in 90 years is a lot different than 2 canceled seasons in 8 years
AND
2) Because the fans IMO understood the first one. They knew that the game needed RADICAL changes in order for it be sustainable. They completely revamped the economic system the game follows. This lockout is, IMO, about VERY MINOR ISSUES. To cancel the year over $180 million or whatever it is and contract rights is completely asinine.
I agree. I just still have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of significant empty seats across North America but I sure hope it happens and that people stick to their word.
De-certification, as I understand it, means the season is over and is an unknown on many counts. No matter how you shake it, will be ugly. Very ugly.
De-certification means that the players are going to take legal action. If the union ceases to exist then the lockout will be technically over because there will be no union to lock the players out, the individual players can sue the league for anti-trust violations, and all current player contracts would be null and void. It is a long and lengthy legal process that won't really accomplish anything until the cases actually get put in front of a judge, but it can be a very effective tool long term if the players decide to use it.
It doesn't mean that the season will definitely be cancelled, although I doubt the players will pursue this route until the season is in serious jeopardy. Also it is unlikely the players will pursue this route anytime soon because then the league would no longer be required to make the escrow payments the players have been receiving.
No they don't. People grow emotionally attached to sports teams and tend to forget that the NHL is a business like any other. We call ourselves fans, but all we really are is consumers buying a product. If a company decides not to offer that product for a period a time they don't owe the consumers (the fans) any explanation, except critical industries and utilities of course. The fact that people are willing to spend so much on tickets and merchandise is a statement about our culture, but it doesn't mean the NHL or the players owe the fans anything.
It doesn't matter if someone earns $2 million a year or $50,000 a year, they shouldn't be expected to take a 7-12% pay cut when the company they work for is experiencing record profits.
Also I highly doubt that the players agree to a meeting without representation. Fehr isn't Goodenow. He has the union behind him and he isn't going to make the same mistakes that Goodenow did last time. I'll bet the only reason why Bettman even proposed this is because he knows that the union is behind Fehr and taking him away from the process would weaken their position.
Record profits that lead to record contracts. Sure the NHL made record profits last year, then turned around and gave 57% of those profits to it's employees. A much larger % then any other sport meanwhile every other major sport makes at least 2X what the NHL makes.
Anyways, I think Bettman is really just trying to
1) hopefully get the players to budge on these contracting rights and end this thing
BUT MORESO
2) kill time so the players don't decertify
He knows if they decertify, the season is dead. I think he's just trying to wait it out, hope they can sway them on some contract rights, and if that doesn't happen, make a legitimate, fair offer the players would certainly agree just before the New Year. They sign, we get a 48 game season starting in early-mid January.
Or, I'm wrong, and the owners cancel a 2nd full season in 8 years and completely kill the league...
The 2nd part would be stupid.
Don't sign a deal just to sign a deal that isn't fair for both parties and doesn't lead to a period of sustained hockey.
I would much rather lose this whole season and have the NHL and the PA come to an agreement that they both feel is fair and leads to a long period of no labor stoppages then get a 48 game schedule this year, 5 years of hockey and then another lockout because the current CBA didn't fix the issues.
Don't sign a deal just to sign a deal that isn't fair for both parties and doesn't lead to a period of sustained hockey.
I would much rather lose this whole season and have the NHL and the PA come to an agreement that they both feel is fair and leads to a long period of no labor stoppages then get a 48 game schedule this year, 5 years of hockey and then another lockout because the current CBA didn't fix the issues.
There's a deal out there that is fair to both sides and won't do any damage. The owners are just refusing to propose it because they want their 5 year max deal, which is a ridiculous thing to hold out for IMO.
And come June or July, I won't care if they talk or not. I'm still in disbelief.
I don't like Fehr, but I think it's best he works things out for the players, they shouldn't be talking for themselves for their interests and the league's interest.
Why?
The NBA did the same thing and it wasn't until the players started negotiations for themselves that a deal got done.
At the end of the day Fehr has his own agenda and from what I have seen it's not about getting hockey back. No one can negotiate better for the players then the players. Maybe not every player but it's also why I think hiring Fehr who is a business man was a stupid idea. The players should bring in someone to meet on their behalf who has their interests at heart but also have the game of hockey and a knowledge of the business of hockey. A former player with knowledge of both sides and who they know won't sell them up the river but also won't do anything to hurt hockey just to premote themselves.
There's a deal out there that is fair to both sides and won't do any damage. The owners are just refusing to propose it because they want their 5 year max deal, which is a ridiculous thing to hold out for IMO.
And the players want a guarantee $ with a guaranteed increase.
Both sides are holding out for stupid things. Both need to negotiate them down.
Fine 5 year max deals isn't fair, offer 7-8 year max deals.
The NBA did the same thing and it wasn't until the players started negotiations for themselves that a deal got done..
The NBAPA had decertified by that time. Depending on the circumstances with a decertified PA, my opinion may change, right now, I think negotiating with players and owners without representatives will lead to more trouble down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T
WhyAt the end of the day Fehr has his own agenda and from what I have seen it's not about getting hockey back. No one can negotiate better for the players then the players. Maybe not every player but it's also why I think hiring Fehr who is a business man was a stupid idea. The players should bring in someone to meet on their behalf who has their interests at heart but also have the game of hockey and a knowledge of the business of hockey. A former player with knowledge of both sides and who they know won't sell them up the river but also won't do anything to hurt hockey just to premote themselves.
I'm really more concerned that Fehr doesn't have his own agenda and that the players are really driving the bus. I don't see a player that could come and help since so many spent their careers getting screwed by owners. Also, there are too many divergent interests within the PA, a player will probably have biased perspective with experience vastly different from most of the union. I think the league is better off with an experienced negotiator like Fehr even though I hate saying that.
I seldom miss a chance to bash the PA but I don't want them to lose leverage when they don't have to because we'll have to go through this again in 5-7 years. The PA is a still a mess and only time is going to fix that with good leadership. I don't think Fehr has been there long enough to really steer the PA. If he did, I think we would have seen a more professional approach by so many of the PA's members.
At this point, I care more about year 6 of the next CBA than anything else and both sides have offered up crap at all levels from what little has been reported.
had the plessure to see Briere live today. Nice as a person, jerk as player. Like I always thought.
Scored a goal but in the end, he should have gotten a game misconduct. Rules are pretty clear for high sticking with an injury as result (5 minutes + game misconduct). Welp, after losing the game, he did not want to sign some cards and on jerseys. In the end, I got lucky and got my stuff signed. You don't know how lucky you are to see players like him every game.
Briere is one of the good guys off the ice. He quietly does some good off the ice without seeking any recognition. He still does charity work in Buffalo, many if not most pro athletes (including hockey players) drop their local fundraising or charities within a few years of moving cities.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with the thread but it's one of the few positive things I have to say about anybody from either side.
Seeing that Hostess bakers were willing to take a salary cut to try to save their jobs, that fast-food workers in New York are striking to get a raise so they have enough money to have food and a roof and yet the NHL and PA are STILL! fighting over $3 billion dollars? sad
Last edited by Sir Psycho T: 12-03-2012 at 06:38 AM.
In an extremely twisted way, watching these two pathetic sides go at it has become sort of entertaining.
Good, I'm not the only one who sees the trainwreck appeal.
I don't see how Jacobs in on a meeting is going to help anything. I think labor squashing is one of his favorite hobbies, even if it's expensive for him.
I'm okay with Sid being there but I think Toews, Jacobs, and Miller in the room at the same time is asking for trouble.
Might just be a backdoor way for the sides to paint Fehr and Bettman as the bad guys letting the owners and players look like they're saving the league. If that isn't the case (a backdoor deal) then I see no reason to have a meeting of this type at this point. I think it's just a meaningless show to make the fans feel better about everybody in the league except Don and Gary.
Whatever the motivations I just hope there's hockey shortly after new years.
I don't believe it but I do believe that the players and owners meeting face to face without their middle men could make some ground.
Do we really think one meeting with players and owners without Gary and Don really did something that wasn't addressed/considered/proposed before? I find it hard to believe Fehr would risk his job, future earnings potential, and reputation on a few pretty young and inexperienced players.
If the deal makes for lasting labor peace, I won't really care one way of the other.
Do we really think one meeting with players and owners without Gary and Don really did something that wasn't addressed/considered/proposed before? I find it hard to believe Fehr would risk his job, future earnings potential, and reputation on a few pretty young and inexperienced players.
If the deal makes for lasting labor peace, I won't really care one way of the other.
Except its the players who need to sign the deal not Fehr.
Maybe the players realized Fehr doesn't care about them and they can deal better for themselves without him.
Yeah great… send the rich kids, Toews and Crosby, both with closed minds (from what I’ve heard of them). What a joke. We need players in there that aren’t puppets, have an open mind to the owners position and importantly are being adversely affected by this lockout. Some intelligence would help as well. Miller seems okay, based on his comments, but a player like Hamrlik is a guy who comes to mind. Oh wait, he wants a deal. Never mind.
Sorry for the sarcasm but I’ve had it up to here with this stupidity and this latest idea reeks of an exercise in futility that could very well end in a yelling match.
Yeah great… send the rich kids, Toews and Crosby, both with closed minds (from what I’ve heard of them). What a joke. We need players in there that aren’t puppets, have an open mind to the owners position and importantly are being adversely affected by this lockout.
You mean like George Parros? There have been plenty of non-'rich kids' to go to these meetings. Adam Burish, George Parros, Kevin Westgarth, etc have all been at the meetings and have the same opinion that Toews and Crosby have.
Every single player has been invited to go to meetings, including Hamrlik. But he's too busy sitting at home in the Czech Rep.
I'm sick of seeing these, "it's the star players who aren't affected by the lockout thats driving this" when there have been PLENTY of non-star players attending the meetings and giving the same opinions the star players do.
..and you want to talk about bringing the same 'rich kids', how about the NHL brings different owners in. I'm not talking about adding 2 owners (TB and WPG), i'm talking about not having Jacobs and the other 3 that are always there. Why not bring in CHI, PHI, NYR, MTL, and VAN owners?
Last edited by Hawkaholic: 12-04-2012 at 11:08 AM.
Except its the players who need to sign the deal not Fehr.
Maybe the players realized Fehr doesn't care about them and they can deal better for themselves without him.
I doubt that given all the support they've shown for Fehr. I'm growing more and more convinced that this is just a PR stunt to salvage league image and marketability. The league really butchered that last time. They let players and owners take more heat than they needed to so I think Don and Gary are trying to deflect blame onto themselves to make the franchise owners and players look a little better.
I think they are still directing all the negotiations indirectly and a little more quietly. Agents would try their best not to let players do things on their own either, they were very involved last time too. I'm sure they want Don instead of Toews and Sid negotiating the principle points of any agreement.
We'll find out what really happened when Gary writes his biography.
article says: if the lockout continues, Kane will play for HC Davos in the Spengler Cup. Both Coaches agreed to this and will make this come true. After this, Kane would be still with EHC Biel
If you haven't been following the main thread, talks are still ongoing. Only info that has come out is that they have spoken as a large group and in small groups. Going on 5 hours of meeting.
