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Phaneuf vs Kronwall

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Phaneuf 53 32.52%
Kronwall 82 50.31%
Even 28 17.18%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:07 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Not when he was rarely ever on the ice with either of them. Step it up.
Weren't Kronwall and Lidstrom on the top PP unit

Or at least played together on the PP ?

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12-04-2012, 09:19 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Leafs at Knight View Post
Weren't Kronwall and Lidstrom on the top PP unit

Or at least played together on the PP ?
Lidstrom spent 37+% more time per game on the PP than Kronwall did, so...

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Old
12-04-2012, 09:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Leafs at Knight View Post
Weren't Kronwall and Lidstrom on the top PP unit

Or at least played together on the PP ?
Not really, no.

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Old
12-04-2012, 10:12 PM
  #29
MastuhNinks
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Phaneuf offensively and defensively.

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Old
12-04-2012, 10:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Leafs at Knight View Post
Weren't Kronwall and Lidstrom on the top PP unit

Or at least played together on the PP ?
Only for the last maybe ten or fifteen games of the season, and even then it was probably still Kronwall only half the time and White the other half.

The big thing is that Kronwall plays the same side Lidstrom does; his efficiency goes down if he's switched over, his effectiveness goes down. White was acquired specifically to play Rafalski's role as a foil to Nick. White will likely end up paired with Kronwall on the first unit when play resumes, although the first unit could realistically be made as the 2008-09 Wings' second unit, minus Hudler, plus Datsyuk. Making that swap would make it Franzen/Zetterberg/Datsyuk (likely lining up as Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Franzen) up front, with Kronwall and Samuelsson at the points. Nyquist/Filppula/Brunner might be the forwards for the second unit, with White/Samuelsson and one of Smith, Kindl, or Quincey on the points.

Regardless, next season will be Kronwall's first season on the top PP unit, whether he plays with Samuelsson, White, or possibly even Smith.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Dion has clearly been the better and more consistent offensively player in their careers. Dion has 5 40+ point seasons, Nik has 1. And Dion is 4 years younger.
Kronwall hasn't had the opportunity as a first-pairing PP defenseman. Had Kronwall been playing in Calgary and Phaneuf in Detroit, the situations might be reversed.

Let's look at the last few seasons. I normally would look back three seasons for this type of comparison, but I'll go back five to include Phaneuf's 2007-08 year and Kronwall's 2008-09.

Phaneuf GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.80 4.53 0.29
10-11 66 0.80 2.78 0.46
09-10 81 0.65 2.95 0.00
08-09 80 1.07 2.83 0.00
07-08 82 1.02 4.78 0.26
Kronwall GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.89 3.82 0.25
10-11 77 1.08 3.92 0.00
09-10 48 0.72 4.06 2.49
08-09 80 1.20 5.65 0.30
07-08 65 1.57 2.63 0.00

Kronwall outscored Phaneuf at ES per-minute every single season for at least the past five seasons. He outscored him on the PP three of the five. SH offense I'm not going to consider because other than Kronwall's 2009-10 (4 SH points), neither player posted better than one point in a given year.

The argument for Phaneuf being better offensively is based entirely on the premise of:

A) Phaneuf had a couple strong seasons in Calgary, so he is probably capable.
B) Kronwall's PP ice time and has been limited by the presence of Nick Lidstrom. Were Kronwall traded for a rookie Phaneuf, Dion never put up those numbers in those seasons while Kronwall probably has a few 50-point years under his belt by now.

And the idea that Phaneuf is better defensively... that's just silly. That's like calling Byfuglien one of the best offensive defensemen in the league. We all know he isn't a defenseman.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:29 PM
  #32
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Pretty dead even, I think Kronwall clearly has better better hockey sense and better defensive game but Phaneuf has the handle on him offensively. Both are equal and great hitters, just slightly different style.

I personally went with Phaneuf(a little homer on my side) but mainly because he is really underrated around here.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:33 PM
  #33
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Close, but Kronwall.

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Old
12-05-2012, 12:02 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Kronwall hasn't had the opportunity as a first-pairing PP defenseman. Had Kronwall been playing in Calgary and Phaneuf in Detroit, the situations might be reversed.

Let's look at the last few seasons. I normally would look back three seasons for this type of comparison, but I'll go back five to include Phaneuf's 2007-08 year and Kronwall's 2008-09.

Phaneuf GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.80 4.53 0.29
10-11 66 0.80 2.78 0.46
09-10 81 0.65 2.95 0.00
08-09 80 1.07 2.83 0.00
07-08 82 1.02 4.78 0.26
Kronwall GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.89 3.82 0.25
10-11 77 1.08 3.92 0.00
09-10 48 0.72 4.06 2.49
08-09 80 1.20 5.65 0.30
07-08 65 1.57 2.63 0.00

Kronwall outscored Phaneuf at ES per-minute every single season for at least the past five seasons. He outscored him on the PP three of the five. SH offense I'm not going to consider because other than Kronwall's 2009-10 (4 SH points), neither player posted better than one point in a given year.

The argument for Phaneuf being better offensively is based entirely on the premise of:

A) Phaneuf had a couple strong seasons in Calgary, so he is probably capable.
B) Kronwall's PP ice time and has been limited by the presence of Nick Lidstrom. Were Kronwall traded for a rookie Phaneuf, Dion never put up those numbers in those seasons while Kronwall probably has a few 50-point years under his belt by now.

And the idea that Phaneuf is better defensively... that's just silly. That's like calling Byfuglien one of the best offensive defensemen in the league. We all know he isn't a defenseman.
You can adjust your statistics all you want, the fact is Phaneuf has scored 100 more points than Kronwall since coming into the league, at a rate of 0.1PPG more. Since when is only one defensemen on a team allowed to get PP time? Using Lidstrom is a poor excuse, you earn your PP time and if Kronwall was so great he'd be given more. And it's not like Phaneuf has just been handed those PP points on powerplay juggernauts, he deserves every bit of credit for his point totals.


Saying Dion Phaneuf is better defensively is silly?

(rankings are among defensemen on respective teams with 40+GP)
Dion Phaneuf:
QoC: 0.090 (1st on team, 3rd in league)
Corsi Rel QoC: 1.399 (1st on team, 10th in league)
Corsi Relative: +3.3 (2nd on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: -0.04

Niklas Kronwall:
QoC: 0.017 (3rd on team)
Corsi Rel QoC: 0.702 (3rd on team)
Corsi Relative: -6.6 (6th on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: +0.65

So just to recap, Phaneuf plays much tougher minutes than Kronwall, his team outshoots opposition and gets scored on less when he is on the ice, versus Kronwall whose team gets outshot and scored on significantly more often when he is on the ice. And before the excuses come, Kronwall has a much higher QoT and Corsi Rel QoT meaning he plays with better teammates.

Yes, clearly it is silly to say that Phaneuf is better defensively.

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Old
12-05-2012, 12:53 AM
  #35
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Good comparison. I give the edge to Kronwall, hes produced at the same rate while being given pretty ****** PP time compared to others on his team who are all time greats. Lidstrom arguably a top 3 guy and Rafalski one of the best puck movers of his generation. Phaneuf isnt earning ice time over those 2 either.

I also dont think Phaneuf should get credit for playing hard minutes when he faired pretty poorly in those minutes, the number 1 dman on a poor defensive team. Kronwall last year was probably 1a/1b with Lidstrom and really started to take over the D by the end of the year.

Overall, advanced stats are garbage in hockey. Based on the eye ball test I would say theyre almost dead even offensively, maybe slight edge Phaneuf. But that offensive edge is outweighed by a slightly bigger margin for Kronwall defensively.

Physical play I'll call even because its hard to quantify and they might be the 2 biggest hitters in the league for dmen

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Old
12-05-2012, 12:59 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Good comparison. I give the edge to Kronwall, hes produced at the same rate while being given pretty ****** PP time compared to others on his team who are all time greats. Lidstrom arguably a top 3 guy and Rafalski one of the best puck movers of his generation. Phaneuf isnt earning ice time over those 2 either.

I also dont think Phaneuf should get credit for playing hard minutes when he faired pretty poorly in those minutes, the number 1 dman on a poor defensive team. Kronwall last year was probably 1a/1b with Lidstrom and really started to take over the D by the end of the year.

Overall, advanced stats are garbage in hockey. Based on the eye ball test I would say theyre almost dead even offensively, maybe slight edge Phaneuf. But that offensive edge is outweighed by a slightly bigger margin for Kronwall defensively.

Physical play I'll call even because its hard to quantify and they might be the 2 biggest hitters in the league for dmen
No he didn't.

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Old
12-05-2012, 01:36 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs at Knight View Post
Weren't Kronwall and Lidstrom on the top PP unit

Or at least played together on the PP ?
Lidstrom typically played the PP with Rafalski. Once he left Lidstrom usually got White.

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:02 AM
  #38
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I like Phaneuf but I went with Kronwall...it was close though.

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:36 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You can adjust your statistics all you want, the fact is Phaneuf has scored 100 more points than Kronwall since coming into the league, at a rate of 0.1PPG more. Since when is only one defensemen on a team allowed to get PP time? Using Lidstrom is a poor excuse, you earn your PP time and if Kronwall was so great he'd be given more. And it's not like Phaneuf has just been handed those PP points on powerplay juggernauts, he deserves every bit of credit for his point totals.


Saying Dion Phaneuf is better defensively is silly?

(rankings are among defensemen on respective teams with 40+GP)
Dion Phaneuf:
QoC: 0.090 (1st on team, 3rd in league)
Corsi Rel QoC: 1.399 (1st on team, 10th in league)
Corsi Relative: +3.3 (2nd on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: -0.04

Niklas Kronwall:
QoC: 0.017 (3rd on team)
Corsi Rel QoC: 0.702 (3rd on team)
Corsi Relative: -6.6 (6th on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: +0.65

So just to recap, Phaneuf plays much tougher minutes than Kronwall, his team outshoots opposition and gets scored on less when he is on the ice, versus Kronwall whose team gets outshot and scored on significantly more often when he is on the ice. And before the excuses come, Kronwall has a much higher QoT and Corsi Rel QoT meaning he plays with better teammates.

Yes, clearly it is silly to say that Phaneuf is better defensively.
So you blow off his stats and then give us some crazy Corsi stats . Phaneuf and Kronwall are pretty even judging by the simple stats. Advanced statistics don't work in hockey. The easiest way to tell the difference devensively is to watch.

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:42 AM
  #40
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Dion.

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12-05-2012, 10:35 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Using Lidstrom is a poor excuse, you earn your PP time and if Kronwall was so great he'd be given more.
You're right, Kronwall is subpar for having not earned PP time over Lidstrom. Phaneuf obviously would've been able to outperform Lidstrom on the PP and take his minutes...


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12-05-2012, 10:38 AM
  #42
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Thisclose but Phaneuf.

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12-05-2012, 12:11 PM
  #43
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Phaneuf. If someone was giving me a mystery team and said "Dion Phaneuf will be your #1 defenceman" I'd be okay with it. If they did the same and said "Niklas Kronwall will be your #1 defenceman" I wouldn't be so happy. Phaneuf has been a top pairing defenceman for the past few years, while Kronwall has been on the second pairing. He might be good in that role, but when have we ever seen him on the first pairing, period, much less as the de facto #1 dman?

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12-05-2012, 12:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Phaneuf. If someone was giving me a mystery team and said "Dion Phaneuf will be your #1 defenceman" I'd be okay with it. If they did the same and said "Niklas Kronwall will be your #1 defenceman" I wouldn't be so happy. Phaneuf has been a top pairing defenceman for the past few years, while Kronwall has been on the second pairing. He might be good in that role, but when have we ever seen him on the first pairing, period, much less as the de facto #1 dman?
Kronwall has better stats on the second pairing than Phaneuf on the first. I see your point.

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12-05-2012, 01:58 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Kronwall hasn't had the opportunity as a first-pairing PP defenseman. Had Kronwall been playing in Calgary and Phaneuf in Detroit, the situations might be reversed.

Let's look at the last few seasons. I normally would look back three seasons for this type of comparison, but I'll go back five to include Phaneuf's 2007-08 year and Kronwall's 2008-09.

Phaneuf GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.80 4.53 0.29
10-11 66 0.80 2.78 0.46
09-10 81 0.65 2.95 0.00
08-09 80 1.07 2.83 0.00
07-08 82 1.02 4.78 0.26
Kronwall GP ESP/60 PPP/60 SHP/60
11-12 82 0.89 3.82 0.25
10-11 77 1.08 3.92 0.00
09-10 48 0.72 4.06 2.49
08-09 80 1.20 5.65 0.30
07-08 65 1.57 2.63 0.00

Kronwall outscored Phaneuf at ES per-minute every single season for at least the past five seasons. He outscored him on the PP three of the five. SH offense I'm not going to consider because other than Kronwall's 2009-10 (4 SH points), neither player posted better than one point in a given year.

The argument for Phaneuf being better offensively is based entirely on the premise of:

A) Phaneuf had a couple strong seasons in Calgary, so he is probably capable.
B) Kronwall's PP ice time and has been limited by the presence of Nick Lidstrom. Were Kronwall traded for a rookie Phaneuf, Dion never put up those numbers in those seasons while Kronwall probably has a few 50-point years under his belt by now.

And the idea that Phaneuf is better defensively... that's just silly. That's like calling Byfuglien one of the best offensive defensemen in the league. We all know he isn't a defenseman.
While I find the actual stat "QoC" to not be very reliable, Kronwall playing on the second pairing would mean that he is playing against weaker players offensively and defensively. Phaneuf would have had a harder time scoring against the top defensive players on the opposing team than Kronwell would against second liners/pairings.

It seems some people are forgetting this fact.

Kronwall has played ~30% of his games over the past three years against the second lines of Colombus, Nashville, St. Louis, and Chicago.

Phaneuf has played ~30% of his games during that same time against the top lines of Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo, and and Montreal.

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Old
12-05-2012, 02:10 PM
  #46
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Pretty close, but went with Phaneuf. Kronwall is a bit overrated, and Phaneuf is a tad underrated.

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12-05-2012, 02:47 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
No he didn't.
He definitely wasnt great defensively. Hes good for a big defensive mistake every now and then where some guy blows around him or he goes out of position for a big hit.

Kronwall on the other hand was arguably the number 1 dman last year on a top defensive team in the league. This year will show a bit better but when Kronwall was given the PP minutes with guys capable of being first unit players he put up over 50 points.

There is a noticeable defensive edge for Kronwall in this comparison if you watch both players, but I doubt most Toronto fans get fox sports detroit

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:21 PM
  #48
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I went with "even," they're pretty close.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:00 PM
  #49
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phaneuf better off

Kron better def

there is no argument. stop with the stupid adjusted stats to better your argument.

good night

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:12 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
You're right, Kronwall is subpar for having not earned PP time over Lidstrom. Phaneuf obviously would've been able to outperform Lidstrom on the PP and take his minutes...

Last I checked you can play more than one defensemen on the powerplay, being better than Lidstrom is not Kronwall's only path to getting more PP time. I don't see what you guys are having so much trouble understanding about this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
He definitely wasnt great defensively. Hes good for a big defensive mistake every now and then where some guy blows around him or he goes out of position for a big hit.

Kronwall on the other hand was arguably the number 1 dman last year on a top defensive team in the league. This year will show a bit better but when Kronwall was given the PP minutes with guys capable of being first unit players he put up over 50 points.

There is a noticeable defensive edge for Kronwall in this comparison if you watch both players, but I doubt most Toronto fans get fox sports detroit
Kronwall was not arguably the number 1 dman, he was a 2nd pairing defensemen. I find it unfortunate that you guys cannot form an argument other than, "Nuh-uh, I'm right and you're wrong!" This seems to be a common argument when I point out the fact that Phaneuf had a very good defensive season. I really don't know what more you guys want, I point out that Phaneuf played tougher competition, his team outshot opposition and got scored on less when he was on the ice (versus Kronwall who was the opposite), and you guys just refuse to back up what you say.

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