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12-04-2012, 04:27 PM
  #26
Shoalzie
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Deserves to be called "Ilitch Arena" as well. Screw the corporate naming rights.

If the arena is right, I can live with a local business on the name...is Comerica Park that offensive?

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12-04-2012, 04:28 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
In your very same post, you seem to be contradicting yourself, which is it?

We know pro sports pump millions into an economy they have done studies on it. As long as Ilitch covers the majority of this it will be huge for the city of Detroit. I am not for a huge tax, but he should get some help, this is big for the entire community.

Also this is reaching Lindstrom status.

Mike Ilitch Sr., just one l in the name. With all he has done for the city I hope they name the arena after him and people learn how to spell his name.
Who is they? Construction lobbiests? Sports industry lobbiests?

Go to Google and type in: stadiums good for economy
If You Build It, They Might Not Come: The Risky Economics of Sports Stadiums
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...adiums/260900/

So I want to know how much money they think the TIF is going to raise for a new arena where private investors get all the reward?

I know how TIFs generally work. Let's see the mechanism here before decide this is a good thing for Detroit.

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12-04-2012, 04:29 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
If the arena is right, I can live with a local business on the name...is Comerica Park that offensive?
What do you think of Amway Arena?

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12-04-2012, 04:35 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
What do you think of Amway Arena?
Hate it, but you're right that is probably what this sucker is going to be named. Not too mention if he is covering a bunch of the expenses this is one way to get the money back if you're Ilitch and company.

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12-04-2012, 04:38 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Who is they? Construction lobbiests? Sports industry lobbiests?

Go to Google and type in: stadiums good for economy
If You Build It, They Might Not Come: The Risky Economics of Sports Stadiums
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...adiums/260900/

So I want to know how much money they think the TIF is going to raise for a new arena where private investors get all the reward?

I know how TIFs generally work. Let's see the mechanism here before decide this is a good thing for Detroit.
You have to look at this two ways. Joe Louis is not an optimal arena going forward, I won't say it isn't doable but at some point soon they would have to move or do a huge make over. Now keeping the Wings in downtown absolutely means more money. More than likely luring the Pistons downtown is a huge deal. The rumored location is also a dead area that produces nothing. Chances are as waterfront property the Joe Louis area remains a decent investment. It is hard to see how this particular instance this isn't a big deal for the city.

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12-04-2012, 04:47 PM
  #31
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Honestly there is nothing wrong with the Palace. It's just the team sucks so no one wants to pay to see them, I actually turned down free tickets because I don't want to see that debacle. (even though they've won the last 5 at home.)
Detroit has always been known for having very good ice, will they build something like MSG where the ice is on a different level? Or will they have to put the ice in everytime they switch sports?
An arena in the suburbs would be ideal, the "Detroiters" don't care about hockey, if you understand what I mean. But the area the sports arenas are in now are not bad at all. But old Tiger Stadium, now that was a different story...

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12-04-2012, 05:16 PM
  #32
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DDA money is not available to the city as general funds, so it won't go to PD, FD or schools anyway.

Add that to the fact that the people who run the city and distribute general funds are more dishonest/inept/corrupt than anyone involved with this new development, I say keep the money as far away from them as possible.

There are a lot of great things going on in the city, I hope and pull for its continued revival. But, every tangible amount of progress is happening due to people like Ilitch, Gilbert, Penske and the like (private sector business). The people who run the city do nothing but obstruct. EX: Belle Isle Lease situation.
1) Where do you think DDA money comes from?
It's a taxation district overlaid on top of a region of the city.
Taxes on future property tax increases are diverted from the places they would normally go (schools/fire/pd etc).

2) I'm glad you want tax dollars to go straight into the hands of selected rich guys. I don't..

It's great having Ford Field downtown and a new Comerica Park... but how exactly did that change Detroit?

It didn't.

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12-04-2012, 06:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Mike Ilitch Sr., just one l in the name. With all he has done for the city I hope they name the arena after him and people learn how to spell his name.
Whoops, my bad. Didn't even notice the spelling when reading it. So many I's and l's just caused some kine of optical illusion

Fixed.

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12-04-2012, 06:15 PM
  #34
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Whoops, my bad. Didn't even notice the spelling when reading it. So many I's and l's just caused some kine of optical illusion

Fixed.
I only recently realized it was one L.

No biggie. It's not like Lindstrom...which is a whole different form of pronunciation.

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12-04-2012, 07:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
What do you think of Amway Arena?

Ask Orlando...isn't that the name of the new digs for the Magic (De Vos owns the team)

Frankly, I don't care...it's the day and age we live in where everything is an opportunity to make more money. If Mr. I can build this arena and doesn't feel the need to put a corporate name on it., it's his building...I just want good sight lines and better bathrooms and concourses.

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12-04-2012, 07:24 PM
  #36
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It will likely be a long time before you see anything. Id be suprised if anything happens in Mr. Ilitchs life time.

I live in Edmonton and a downtown arena complex has been on the negotiating table for 4+ years (and counting)...

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12-04-2012, 07:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SirloinUB View Post
It will likely be a long time before you see anything. Id be suprised if anything happens in Mr. Ilitchs life time.

I live in Edmonton and a downtown arena complex has been on the negotiating table for 4+ years (and counting)...
I really doubt it will take too long for the new arena to be built. Ilitch knows how much money he is going to make from the new arena. He owns Detroit so he wont have any problem with bureaucracy.

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12-04-2012, 08:16 PM
  #38
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Stadiums don't really do much for the economy, mostly just divert income streams from other things. Studies done by teams and leagues tend to just look at the revenue generated by the new stadium without looking if it's actually a net benefit for the region rather than the guy who owns the stadium.

And Bob is correct, as nice as Comerica and Ford Field are, they haven't really made much of a difference as far as Detroit's fortunes are concerned.

As far as revitalization goes sports stadiums also have the problem that outside the 6-7 hours that encompass the pre-game arrivals, the game and the aftermatch, they can be pretty deserted (and this includes the attached entertainment options). They certainly don't bring about the sort of urban vibrancy you'd hope for with such a major investment. That's a general problem with "commuter-based" regeneration. Livability is the first concern and Detroit has so much to do on that front.

That said, the Wings *do* probably need a new arena in the next 10-15 years or so. I'd just prefer it if private sector actors paid for it. Don't forget, once finished it would likely be a total cash cow for Ilitch.

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12-04-2012, 08:55 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Stadiums don't really do much for the economy, mostly just divert income streams from other things. Studies done by teams and leagues tend to just look at the revenue generated by the new stadium without looking if it's actually a net benefit for the region rather than the guy who owns the stadium.

And Bob is correct, as nice as Comerica and Ford Field are, they haven't really made much of a difference as far as Detroit's fortunes are concerned.

As far as revitalization goes sports stadiums also have the problem that outside the 6-7 hours that encompass the pre-game arrivals, the game and the aftermatch, they can be pretty deserted (and this includes the attached entertainment options). They certainly don't bring about the sort of urban vibrancy you'd hope for with such a major investment. That's a general problem with "commuter-based" regeneration. Livability is the first concern and Detroit has so much to do on that front.

That said, the Wings *do* probably need a new arena in the next 10-15 years or so. I'd just prefer it if private sector actors paid for it. Don't forget, once finished it would likely be a total cash cow for Ilitch.
Pretty much this. Downtown Detroit is dead 90% of the year. Friday nights are pitiful compared to a City like Chicago which is always is packed even when a pro team isnt playing. A pro team can only make a good thing better. If you build it, they wont come unless they are already here.

Wings games dont even fill up downtown even during the playoffs with the exception of the Cup Finals. That hardly justifies tax payer money going towards constructing a new building for the Wings. I love the Wings, but you need to have your priorities in order. School, public safety, a bunch of other stuff and MAYBE a pro sports arena if there is enough money to spare without sacrificing anything.

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12-04-2012, 09:23 PM
  #40
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One thing to remember is that part of any money paid by the city itself would quickly be recouped by a big chunk of extra tax revenues garnered from having Pistons players and officials now working inside the city and paying the income tax and corporate income tax. Using 2012-13 payroll number of ~67.5M, and assuming every team they play at home will have the same payroll amount, that translates to roughly $810,000 in tax revenue from Pistons players (assuming the 1.2% rate) and ~$414,878 in tax revenue from visiting players. From the Pistons corporation tax you are looking at roughly $318,000 (1% of 31.8M income number reported by Forbes for 2010 Pistons), and that number is lowest it had been since 2006. Then you add on top of that income tax revenue from coaches, front office personnel, etc. I might even be wrong on the Pistons income tax (maybe they only pay for the 41 home games and not the full 82 game salary). That means you'd be looking at ~1.15M to 1.55M additional income tax revenue per year just from the players and corporate income tax alone. Now, that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the 650M proposed price tag but it's worth noting as an immediate tangible benefit that would help offset any money the city gives out.

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12-04-2012, 09:59 PM
  #41
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Lets hope the new ice isn't ******

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12-04-2012, 10:10 PM
  #42
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I hope they transfer the boards from the Joe to the new arena. Or at the very least, they reproduce them for the new arena.

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12-04-2012, 10:21 PM
  #43
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potential sites for the new arena

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=...4&source=embed

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12-04-2012, 10:25 PM
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The one next to Comerica is the best IMO.

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12-04-2012, 10:33 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1) Where do you think DDA money comes from?
It's a taxation district overlaid on top of a region of the city.
Taxes on future property tax increases are diverted from the places they would normally go (schools/fire/pd etc).

2) I'm glad you want tax dollars to go straight into the hands of selected rich guys. I don't..

It's great having Ford Field downtown and a new Comerica Park... but how exactly did that change Detroit?

It didn't.
Didnt a lot of bars close down due to the last lockout the NHL had?

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12-04-2012, 10:46 PM
  #46
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Didnt a lot of bars close down due to the last lockout the NHL had?
A lot? Like how many?
You don't think that a couple businesses are going to struggle when the Joe moves from its current location?

The only real economic impact I see is construction.
Otherwise, you're just moving the money to a new part of the city.

And even then... Bars. It's a sad thing when anyone loses their business. But let's talk numbers. How much tax dollars for how much REAL and NEW economic benefit.

I'd be interested to know how this DDA TIF mechanism works.

So the DDA helps fund the construction of this thing? At what level? The DDA, perhaps with the backing of the state, floats a huge municipal bond that it pays back by capturing taxes on the increased property values in where? The whole city? The immediate area surrounding the city proposed arena site?


Ah, so the corporate welfare extends all the way to Lansing
Quote:
Legislation introduced in Lansing would create a new “catalyst development project” that could benefit from support from the Michigan Strategic Fund and also from the use of Downtown Development Authority tax revenues that support projects in the central business district.
Good to know that Lansing politicans, while bankrupting schools and eliminating pensions for guys who wake up at 3 a.m. to fix exploded frozen pipes, are planning to make the Ilitcher richer with our tax dollars.


Last edited by RedWingsNow*: 12-04-2012 at 10:51 PM.
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12-04-2012, 11:16 PM
  #47
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Didnt a lot of bars close down due to the last lockout the NHL had?
The irony in that is that part of the rationale behind this proposal is to take the revenue stream associated with the sports teams away from independent bars and restaurants in the area and instead have it go either to people at least paying rent and licencing fees to Ilitch or outlets directly owned by Ilitch.

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12-04-2012, 11:19 PM
  #48
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The one next to Comerica is the best IMO.
Yes, that lot bordered by I-75, Grand River, Adams and Park Ave makes the most amount of sense. Puts Ford Field, CoPa, the Fox and the DRW arena all within a few blocks of each other. Grand Circus Park is the center of the entire area and there is lots of development right behind the Park. No need for a people mover to get around that area.

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12-04-2012, 11:42 PM
  #49
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How much revenue is generated by the whole tourism idea of it? Now that theres a shiny new arena I'm sure youll get a lot more people wanting to get there and check it out.

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12-04-2012, 11:56 PM
  #50
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How much revenue is generated by the whole tourism idea of it? Now that theres a shiny new arena I'm sure youll get a lot more people wanting to get there and check it out.
How much more tourism will a new arena generate when we already have an arena that supposedly sells out all the time?

Also, how beneficial is it really if it's in the vicinity as the other stadiums in town?

Aren't those businesses already benefiting from sports stadiums? Wouldn't it be good to share whatever wealth an arena might bring with another section of town?

I can see the sense in an arena/entertainment district, I suppose. But to me this just screams taxpayer boondoggle.

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